[BlackCanary]

Please put on your therapist hat and pose a question to me about this situation.

I am curious to see my therapist outside of the office, what is she like, is she the same? Plus it sounds like her parents are warm and loving to her and to each other, and I'm always keen to observe a functional family

Her father is an artist, and his work is on display at a local gallery which is holding a reception on Saturday, family will be there (per Facebook). I'm considering going, which I definitely regard as a boundary crossing and believe she would as well.

At this point I'm asking myself WHY - why do I want to go? what do I hope to see? what reaction do I hope for? do I tell her ahead of time, ask permission? I'm trying to understand why I might choose to do this, so that if I do attend I'll have some insight into my motivation (vs. just due to lack of self-control).


(Unfortunately I don't have an appointment for several weeks due to her full schedule .)

[lastyearisblank]

I guess my question would be, how would you feel if you asked her about going and she said no?

Would she definitely say no?

[Mike_J]

Is there anyway you could email or phone her to ask if you going would be OK with her? And if you do go I would'nt do more than just say "Hi" if you bump into her, I wouldn't try to engage her in any sort of conversation.

[doogie]

This is just my thoughts - take or leave.

Do you think you are wondering if she is "real" with you? Meaning that how she is with you in session isn't fake, but that she is a real, caring person and not just putting on the "act" because it is her "job" and you think that seeing her in a real environment might confirm your feelings that she is real with you or confirm that she is putting on an act? I don't know - just my 2 cents.

I would ask if you could attend. She will say no if she doesn't want you there because of boundaries. It might make for interesting discussion if you did attend.

[*doodles*]

So you mean your family is going?
If so, you could just mention that you know a few people going and would it be ok if you went, or would she think it was crossing a boundary. If she doesn't mind, I would go..just say Hi, but leave her to do her own thing.
I don't know how I would feel seeing T out of a therapy setting...and with her family!

Since you already consider this a boundary violation, I would definitely not even consider going without asking for an invitation first. Why do you want to push the envelope? Are you testing your t to see how she will respond? Sounds like a bad idea in all honesty. The reception is about her father and his art. It is not about your relationship with your t. Are you willing to go there only to appreciate his art without any other motivation?

[ladyjrnlist]

I agree with farmergirl, sit this one out. It willl only complicate things for you in the long run and it really won't satisfy any of your conflicting emotions. It could actually be a bad thing for you to see her in another setting where she is not there solely for you. You need to maintain the image that your T is yours and yours alone during your treatment. It could hurt you to see her with others who love her.
I also don't understand why she is your friend on Facebook. That could be a potential danger spot too.
I know how curious you are, I'm the same about my T, but just resist the temptation. It's not worth it.

[Fartraveler]

I agree with Chris and Ladyjrnlist. Don't go. Why would you infringe on her Dad's celebration of his art? Why would you put her in an uncomfortable position, particularly on this kind of occasion? She needs to be there for her dad, as his daughter, without any kind of dual role being forced on her. If you want to see his art, then go on another day. I don't think that being her patient gives you the right to "observe" her family. That feels somewhat stalkerish, actually.

[BlackCanary]

Wow, so much good stuff already, this is just what I was hoping for!

@Farmer Girl, Ldy - With my current T, I consider it a boundary crossing (to see the therapist in a public event on purpose) vs. a violation (go into the T's private space - their church or gym vs. my own). She's pretty open about her family information, so if I asked she might say yes. But she'd also talk with me about the WHY or ask why not plan something else? I'm trying to listen to the therapist in my head, and ask these questions.

Her dad has a public profile on Facebook, which is how I know about the event.
Chris, you are right - I would enjoy the art and I'd bring my young daughter to show her - but that's not the primary reason I would want to go. So that's definitely a clear answer.

"maintain the image that your T is yours and yours alone" - this really resonates with me. What if she was drinking too much or got in a fight with her sister while I was there? - ack!

I'm trying to figure out which is bigger - my curiousity, my desire to have an extra special connection with her OR my respect for her as a professional who helps me, and my security in the relationship as it exists w/o this boundary crossing?

I am also trying to create an alternative - no luck on leaving the kids with my SIL but now I'm trying to make plans with my office mate (and I told her why!!).

thanks everyone!!

[cmac13]

yeah that's a tough question you pose. I would definitely let her know ahead of time. If she is open about her personal life it might not matter to her, but I surely would discuss it ahead of time. Call her or email her. I would think that you don't want it to be an akward situation and you don't want to comprimise your therapeautic relationship either. I too have always wondered if my therapist is the same in "real life" as she is in the office. Because she and i are in the same profession as is her husband (now retired) we move is similar circles. I knew her husband because of where he worked and spoke to him on occassion. She has also allowed me to invite her and him to one event a year that she attends with me. I usually take my son or my husband with me to the event. And we all have a great time. After all these years my son does not know who she is he thinks she is just some friend from work. He is 25 years old. I have been with this therapist for 19 years. I have asked her why she allows this once a year. And she says that she does it because she knows how much it means to me and she wants me to know that there are people I can count on to "show up" for things that matter to me. Other than that I do not see her outside of the office. We do live about 15 minutes from each other but I have never run into her.

[rainbow8]

Your question brings back all of my boundary crossings with my Ts, past and present. Usually when I saw my former T in the community, it triggered me more than satisfying my curiousity. I attended a class that I knew she also attended, and I had a perfect right to be there, and went with my own friends. But it was never good. I watched her every move, and she knew it too. It made us both uncomfortable. There was too much transference going on for me. I wanted her to be my T when I saw her elsewhere, but she wasn't. It was very difficult though it got easier because I couldn't avoid her when our paths crossed.

Even if the other reasons to go are valid, you're going to have a lot of feelings if you go, and I don't think they will be about her father's art. It's too sticky and potentially triggering the way I see it, and though you are curious, I don't think it's a good idea even if your T gives you permission to attend.

Didn't you have problems with boundaries with your former T, that ended badly? Is this a pattern? I totally understand if it is. I think discussing with your T why you want to go, after the fact, would be more productive.

i am not getting this so much, only because i would never want to see my t in public, before i moved we lived blocks from each other and i still never saw him.
i think he spotted me once at the mall, i heard his voice (very loud) which gave me time to hide, duck down by some clothes. i just didn't like it at all. i really prefer t to be in his office 24/7 waiting for me. Not helping other clients (hehehe)

i would really listen to what is posted here. you got some great advice. be sure if you feel comfortable to let us know what you decided and how it worked out. i, for one, am curious!

[wheeler]

As hard as it may be I would suggest talking about this with T. It may help alleviate the 'want'. I also wonder if her lack of availability it heighting this for you??



www.normalwasnotmygoal.blogspot.com

[seventyeight]

in a perfect scenario, what would you want to happen? that would be the question i'd ask myself, and try to figure out if it's even possible.

so, best case, you don't tell her beforehand (because it seems you don't want to), she sees you at the event, greets you warmly, and invites you to join her and the rest of her family and family to view the artwork. you offer comments, thoughts, and opinions on the art, she does the same, and you get to know her better on a personal level. you also share a drink and a laugh, and leave feeling like it was a total success.

it might also be helpful to think of the worst-case scenario..

[swimmergirl]

This is really interesting to read about. Along with all the other suggestions, I would ask yourself...............what do you have to gain vs. lose? What are the benefits/risks of both going vs. not going? Try to figure out your motivations. One more thing to consider(definitely bring up with your T that you WANTED to go, whether you do or not) do you have a great rapport with your T? If you do, I would not do ANYTHING that would risk ruining that. Everyone always talks about how clients need to trust their Ts and that's true, but there is a certain amount of trust your T places in you, especially if she is self-disclosing. Do you want to risk ruining that? I would not do anything that would risk ruining the relationship I have with my T, not intentionally anyway. And I really like the idea of maintaining the imagery that your T is for you and you alone. That is powerful. Another thing to think about..........are you unconsciously trying to sabotage any progress you have made with your T because you are afraid of the pain or afraid to change? Just a thought. By the way, I don't think you are a stalker.

[Perna]

Since you know it is/would be a boundary crossing; I don't know why you would disrespect your T and go. Whether you know "why" or not is not the issue; you can wonder that on your own, here, with your T, etc. for as long as you wish and get that answer. There is no answer though, no "good" reason to deliberately cross another's boundary other than pure selfishness. It won't hurt your T if you go but it can hurt you badly! Please don't go. I believe deliberate self-indulgence is a form of self injury; it becomes a habit and gets harder and harder to get out of and can harm your chances of good relationships with other people or getting to know yourself (because you'll be in the habit of giving in to yourself so won't do the necessary hard work).

But only you can find "why" you want something because only you can know yourself? One could suggest several reasons that might/might not fit for you (but would/would not fit for me because I'd be able to think of them based on my own reasoning?), but it would all just be "guessing" on another's part.

The range is too broad; you could admire the artist in her father or have had a father who wanted to be an artist or wish your T were an artist or feel like Van Gogh and identify with other artists -- as you see, that all has nothing to do with T! The father daughter relationship you imagine between T and her father might be what you wish was between you and yours, you might be hoping T's father paints about his family so you could learn more about T, like looking at photographs of T over time only better because they would be "originals" and "see" more. You might wish you were part of T's family instead of your own or think looking at the same pictures T looks at will help you see the way she sees. You might just want to go out alone and feel "safer" going somewhere there will be people who know people you "know" and trust.

But "why" you want to go/see doesn't really do anything for you. Only actions, "do". All the rest is just thoughts and possible motivations, sometimes good to know but not an excuse for/against the doing.

(((((BlackCanary))))))

This reminds me a little bit of when you found something on google earth with your old T and showed it to him (right? something like that).

I think there is something so enticing about bending the boundaries...finding out what T is "really" like, having a special connection with T, testing the limits...but I really believe in the end that the boundaries are there for a good, good reason, and that it probably hurts us more than helps us when we cross those boundaries.

I actually had a chance to see my T in the community recently. He was leading a seminar that I didn't really "qualify" for, but he said I was welcome to come. In the end, I didn't go. Even though we talked about it, and I knew it was okay, I felt like it might feel like too much for *me*. I'm working hard to NOT trigger myself, and I thought it might be triggering in some way.

I hope this doesn't sound harsh, because that is SO not how I mean it. My opinion is just that if you can't discuss it with your T ahead of time, it's probably not the right thing to do.

[HalfSwede]

I had one Pdoc who also functioned as a T who said if we bumped into each other in public, it was fine for me to say "hi," but I've never had one who invited me to a social function. If I were you, I probably wouldn't go, but if you do go, I would tread carefully. I wish I could be more specific about the ways it could change the relationship, but I don't know of any examples of Ts and patients meeting in public.

Your relationship with your T may change over time and get to the point where you do feel like it wouldn't be awkward to see each other socially, but if your gut tells you it wouldn't be right for that to happen now, I'd probably go with that.

[BlackCanary]

You all are great helpers! @rainbow thanks for that personal experience!

I did have major transference issues with the prior therapist, and with him the boundary was very, very tight - he didn't want to share any info. This T is quite different. She knows how it went with the old T also, she is different on purpose.

@swimmergirl - "trying to sabotage" - yes, I can see this as resistence/testing - in June she's being moved to another center that is 10 miles away from the current location and I don't want to trek out there (another 30-40 min away). And my old T left for a new job in June last year, so I'm pulling up that bitterness (all my therapists leave me in June). So if I do a dumb thing then that sabotages things....

Perna, this is a great insight - "The father daughter relationship you imagine between T and her father might be what you wish was between you and yours" - and with my old T lots of the transference was seeing him as a father figure. And I was very insecure as to that T's view of me (does he like me?). But with this T now I am very sure of her view of me, she just tells me

Part of seeking the feedback here is to do some of the work before I talk to her (we have a quick call scheduled for late on Friday). I like to go into the discussion with both the challenge and some insights into the resolution.

[WikidPissah]

BC...you already have deemed it to be a boundary crossing...what more can I tell you. You obviously know it could be bad for you and your T relationship, yet you feel that urge to risk all that for a glimpse of T at an art show that you really care nothing about. I hate to agree with others, but it is disrespectful. It's T's time, not yours. Sorry.

[Omers]

My vote is stay home. You are not going to get what you are looking for at the opening of an art exhibit.
I went to the same church as my first T and it did help me to see that she wasn't faking in therapy. She truly was a caring supportive person... But I had the belief going into therapy that Ts were some kind of big brain sucking zombie.
With another T I went to a conference and bumped into her once. We said hi and hugged and went our ways but we were both attending as professionals. Later in our work I went to her house to pick something up and met her husband. She was OK but after I got there I realized just how not OK I was with it. Now that we no longer work together I deeply regret the decision to go to her house.
I ran into another T I was working with. She had her young daughter with her and she was such a cold distant mother I burst into tears. She was so warm with me in therapy but so cold to her own kid. I couldn't work with her after that.
My current T I knew from a previous context that included a couple of social gatherings. I am grateful for having had the experiences but they make therapy harder. I did find she is much more fun as a T than at an event.
So while it is exciting to dream about seeing T outside of therapy I have mostly found it to be damaging to the relationship and disappointing. Ts are much more fun as "super heroes" than as real people. They are far more normal and boring than we give them credit for.

[Fartraveler]

This question resonated with me, because when I started therapy I was overly obsessed with my T, and behaved inappropriately on a number of occasions. She was more than patient with me -- frankly, I don't know how she put up with my behavior. But one thing she really did feel strongly about was that she did not want me intruding on her family.

So, that was my experience about what one very dedicated, kind and caring T would and would not put up with.

Good luck with this.

-Far

[dizgirl2011]

Would it be possible that your wanting to do it to gain some comfort from seeing her? Or to feel special by seeing her with her family? Could it perhaps just be curiosity? How did you find out about her fathers work being in the gallery at the first place?

what are the consequences of going and your therapist seeing you there?

[ECHOES]

Maybe you just feel like being you, and exploring what sounds appealing to you and seeing what it's like to do this?

[with or without you]

I wouldn't do it.