[Ygrec23]

You know, spending so much time in your head, on your dreams, your memories, your fantasies, your problems gets old, really old, and I've only been doing this for a year and a half. I'm already bored by myself and my problems and we're certainly still in the middle of things or even (horrors!) still at the beginining.

But I know, yes, I do know, that it's only through such painstaking, repetitive work that we'll be able to reshape ourselves into something less pain-provoking, less fundamentally painful, something essentially calmer that lets us pay more attention to the beautiful outside world of normal life.

This week, shaking again through a sieve the rocks and pebbles from the bottom of the creek, I found gold. Yes. Just as we, you and I, do find psychological gold from time to time. I found a thread that organizes then and now, that inserts real understanding into the crazed hodge-podge of my life's events and happenings. A hodge-podge that's all too often seemed just like a random collection of junk.

Yeah, I see this now, and though it's not all that complicated or sophisticated it really hasn't occurred to me before. It starts at the beginning and goes right to the end, to right now as I sit here typing this. You see, some time before I was two, maybe even one, a time when I was probably still in diapers, something happened and, as a result of this happening, several consequences ensued.

First, I knew for a fact that when I asked for something that I really, REALLY, needed and wanted, I would be refused.

Second, I knew that even THINKING about a terribly wanted or needed thing would send me into a maelstrom, a vortex of shame, self-hatred and anxiety.

Third, I knew that even CONSIDERING, even PONDERING my asking for something I desperately needed and wanted, would wind me up in an overwhelming emotional situation ending in night and day obsessions with auto-destruction.

And along came adult life and I really didn't have to ask for such terribly wanted or needed things. I had training, I had skills, I had intelligence. It wasn't all that hard for me to make a living without trespassing on the forbidden zones of "asking" as opposed to simply "being offered." I was offered. Didn't have to ask. Problem resolved.

Then came the Great Recession (still going on now). And for a variety of hard dollar reasons my practice melted away. And there was nothing for me to do other than go around with my hat in my hand, asking for favors. Job favors, employment favors, money favors. All the stuff that brought me right back to early childhood and all those awful, terrible, impossible thoughts and feelings.

I couldn't do it. Simply could not. I faded out and my world faded out to me. I lived in a cloud. A fog. And spent every day, but EVERY day, thinking THOSE thoughts about THAT out. This went on for three years. During which I was primary caregiver for my ever-loving mother, the author of these problems, who was dying of pancreatic cancer and dying damned slowly. But I did what a "good son" is supposed to do, on autopilot, navigating around and through my impenetrable fog, as the savings melted away, the investments, the retirement money, the credit.

Kurt Weill was a German composer of the first half of the last century. He composed musical shows, popular stuff, but popular verging on serious. No junk. He wrote a song, a song you may have heard, a song called "Lost in the Stars." You should hear it. That's where I was for three-four years.

I still had to do IT. I still couldn't make any real headway without doing IT, without doing what when I was two years old I believed I'd never do in my life: ask for something I really needed and/or wanted.

Then I started work with T. And we've made significant progress in all kinds of things but not in relation to THIS thing, this inability to ask for something I truly need.

And right now, right this minute, this day and hour, I no longer have any choice. Been floating for a long time and lots of things have happened, but if I want to make sure that really, really bad changes do not happen right now, today, this week, I have to bust right on through this emotional hurricane focussed on asking for things I need and want. I have to do it. I just have to do it. Can't get away from it any more. It's right here knocking on my door right now. Can't you hear it?

[rainbow8]

Is there something in particular you want and need to ask for right now? You don't have to say, but I wondered if you know what it is that you are asking for. I admire your journey and willingness to share it with us here.

[skysblue]

Ygrec - even without the history you've experienced, I think it's tough for most to ask. You have a tougher burden though. Do it - you can. When we push ourselves to try what we never thought possible, it's an amazing experience. I know that. And you know what, we don't die.

So... ask.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Is there something in particular you want and need to ask for right now? You don't have to say, but I wondered if you know what it is that you are asking for. I admire your journey and willingness to share it with us here.

Oh, yes. I do know what I have to ask for. That's quite clear. There's no real reason to set it down here. Almost all of it is the same as other people have to ask for. Jobs, credit, discounts, that stuff. Take care!

[nannypat]

I,too.know the result of early unmet needs and the independence it fosters but at the same time the inability to ask for......
Your struggle is understood. I send you good supportive thoughts.

I understand only too clearly what you're talking about, Ygrec. I hope that you're able to dig down beneath the gravel, into the silt and find the strength you need to ask . . . .but I also understand the urge . . .the hard, painful desire to just dig a hole in the silt and disappear. Thanks for talking about it all in such an eloquent way.

I do admire your ability to ask for what you need. I'm not sure that I could do it, or that I necessarily do it in smaller ways in any meaningful. I treasure my self-sufficiency and it would be most difficult to break from that and ask for help.

A milder form of breaking with self sufficiency is feeling okay with accepting what others offer me, or even accepting per se. This is something I have only recently been able to do, and it has been a little bit revolutionary. I have noticed a corresponding shift in accepting myself, being kinder and more caretaking of myself, as I have allowed others to give me something. It has been a gift.

I hope for you that your willingness to make this kind of change has positive side effects for you, ygrec.

Anne

[beautiful.mess]

Wow, what you wrote is so eloquent and so profound. It really spoke to me as I can relate.

My T always tells me that I have so much insight and in response to that I tell him that I know I have the insight, but that's about where it stops. What then? What's next? What do I DO with that insight? He never really answers that question. I'm beginning to think the answer to that is that I need to go out on a limb and ask for what I need and/or want. Which is the LAST thing I want to do because on some unconscious level I know (read: think) that what I'm asking for is unreasonable. Too much. Just plain wrong. Heck, I'm going to go two steps back and say that even ASKING or THINKING OF ASKING for something is wrong and that it's not going to get me to where I want to go anyway so why bother.

It's a dichotomy of being so simple and yet so complicated at the same time. I hear you though Ygrec.

Beautiful piece of music btw.

[Ygrec23]

I do admire your ability to ask for what you need. I'm not sure that I could do it, or that I necessarily do it in smaller ways in any meaningful. I treasure my self-sufficiency and it would be most difficult to break from that and ask for help.

If I gave you the impression, Anne, that I can ask for what I need, then it was the wrong impression. The whole point of this thread is that I can't and never have been able to ask. That was just irrelevant during most of my life, but within the past four years being able to ask for what I need has become basic survival behavior. And I'm not surviving.

A milder form of breaking with self sufficiency is feeling okay with accepting what others offer me, or even accepting per se. This is something I have only recently been able to do, and it has been a little bit revolutionary. I have noticed a corresponding shift in accepting myself, being kinder and more caretaking of myself, as I have allowed others to give me something. It has been a gift.

That I've been able to do all my life. A free gift is one thing. Asking is another. To me. And possibly to you. But no one is offering me free gifts anymore. Now I HAVE to ask.

I hope for you that your willingness to make this kind of change has positive side effects for you, ygrec. Anne

Thank you, Anne, I hope so too.

[Ygrec23]

Wow, what you wrote is so eloquent and so profound. It really spoke to me as I can relate. My T always tells me that I have so much insight and in response to that I tell him that I know I have the insight, but that's about where it stops. What then? What's next? What do I DO with that insight? He never really answers that question.

Insight is the powerful flashlight that will permit you to see things in the stygian gloom of your mind. Facts. Memories. Suppressed realities. Feelings. Insight permits you to connect one thing to another out of what were previously just unrelated things that were lying around. Your T can't tell you all of this because if you're TOLD the answer, if you don't figure it out on your own, the batteries in the flashlight will die and you'll be no better off.

I'm beginning to think the answer to that is that I need to go out on a limb and ask for what I need and/or want. Which is the LAST thing I want to do because on some unconscious level I know (read: think) that what I'm asking for is unreasonable. Too much. Just plain wrong. Heck, I'm going to go two steps back and say that even ASKING or THINKING OF ASKING for something is wrong and that it's not going to get me to where I want to go anyway so why bother.

If you feel that way, if you feel that asking or thinking about asking is wrong, that tells you something about your babyhood. What happened and what didn't happen. What do you need? What do you want? Now? When you were tiny? What's so hard to ask for? Now? Then? You fix yourself by exploring all these question marks. And following where the clues lead you. Not by accepting the status quo. Not by renouncing your right to ask. Because you do have a right to ask. And in many life situations you definitely have a right to GET what you ask for. Particularly when you're a baby and totally dependent.

It's a dichotomy of being so simple and yet so complicated at the same time. I hear you though Ygrec. Beautiful piece of music btw.

Glad you liked it. Take care!

I can empathize with the asking stuff - I hate it, too. I sort of have to grit my teeth and force myself to do it. But I can also empathize with the difficulty you're having with it. I'm in a similar situation, but with a different issue. Things are reaching critical mass, and I think about it constantly. And I'm convinced I SIMPLY CAN'T DO IT. Like it's physically impossible, like even if I wanted to, I simply wouldn't be able to. Good lord, it's a struggle!!!! I've talked about it with T, and we figured out that not only am I afraid of being hurt, I'm afraid of being annihilated - afraid that it will actually kill me. Forget hurt - that I can take - but I'm afraid of being destroyed - literally. Does any of this ring a bell with you? Do you think your fear of this is that great? Anyway, that was a very eloquent post.... as usual Food for thought .... thanks

[beautiful.mess]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

Insight is the powerful flashlight that will permit you to see things in the stygian gloom of your mind. Facts. Memories. Suppressed realities. Feelings. Insight permits you to connect one thing to another out of what were previously just unrelated things that were lying around. Your T can't tell you all of this because if you're TOLD the answer, if you don't figure it out on your own, the batteries in the flashlight will die and you'll be no better off.


If you feel that way, if you feel that asking or thinking about asking is wrong, that tells you something about your babyhood. What happened and what didn't happen. What do you need? What do you want? Now? When you were tiny? What's so hard to ask for? Now? Then? You fix yourself by exploring all these question marks. And following where the clues lead you. Not by accepting the status quo. Not by renouncing your right to ask. Because you do have a right to ask. And in many life situations you definitely have a right to GET what you ask for. Particularly when you're a baby and totally dependent.


Glad you liked it. Take care!

Well, I've been thinking of this a lot lately and I have no idea what happened when I was little; I honestly cannot remember. I am, however, starting to piece some of this stuff together and finding that probably my mother (and most definitely my father) were "shut down" when I was little. It's occurring to me now in life (and this is VERY difficult for me to not turn away from) that they were just kind of.....OK, forget kind of....FLAT OUT "hands off" in the emotional dept. And that got worse the older I got, capping off to an all time high when I was a teenager. I can't go any farther than that for some reason. It's like my mind and heart won't allow me to because the truth hurts so much. I feel like a 12 yr old in an adult body a lot of the time because of these unmet emotional needs. I mean, I KNOW intellectually that it's not too much to ask, but it really, really feels like it. It's like a visceral reaction, outside of my conscious control.

So I suppose what I really need, first and foremost, is to feel safe to ask for what I need and that I won't be made to feel like I'm knocking on the wrong door and to just go away and find something else to do. I need to feel like someone gives a flying rat's *** about me.

Welp, that's a start, right?

It's good to know I'm not the only one though. That in itself is priceless "therapy".

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by TheBunnyWithin

I can empathize with the asking stuff - I hate it, too. I sort of have to grit my teeth and force myself to do it. But I can also empathize with the difficulty you're having with it. I'm in a similar situation, but with a different issue. Things are reaching critical mass, and I think about it constantly. And I'm convinced I SIMPLY CAN'T DO IT. Like it's physically impossible, like even if I wanted to, I simply wouldn't be able to. Good lord, it's a struggle!!!! I've talked about it with T, and we figured out that not only am I afraid of being hurt, I'm afraid of being annihilated - afraid that it will actually kill me. Forget hurt - that I can take - but I'm afraid of being destroyed - literally. Does any of this ring a bell with you? Do you think your fear of this is that great? Anyway, that was a very eloquent post.... as usual Food for thought .... thanks

Yes indeed, Bunny. Sounds very much like the same thing. It appears that we have prior states of feeling that are so impossible we simply can't deal with them if and when they show up again in our "now" life. Hurt, annihilated, destroyed, obliterated, burned alive, locked alone in a dungeon, no response but silence, utterly and completely alone. Yeah. You're right. That's what it is. Except.

Except that we HAVE to do it. We're big people now. Our lives depend on ourselves. No more mommies. Or daddies. And we don't want to feel even worse than we do now, do we? And worse is ALWAYS possible. So in the end, after all the misery and suffering, we have to pick up our rags and move on down the line. Do something to keep the pot boiling, the blood circulating.

It's possible not. There are a few of us who perhaps can stick with a very plain kind of self-annihilation, if we hate ourselves enough. Read Golding's "To the Ends of the Earth, a Sea Trilogy." But there aren't that many. Most of us don't suffer and die, we suffer and live. From junkyard to soup kitchen. From flophouse to fleabag to greasy spoon to dive to gutter. In fancy avatars of course.

Life does go on. Yeah. For the vast majority of us. However bad we feel from time to time. Oh yes, it feels like we can't take a single more step; that we'll drop dead and die; that we're totally and completely all out. But we're not. We're human beings. And whatever lousy things they may call us, we're tough. About as tough as they come. Blow us out of an evolutionary niche? We'll find another. Oh yes we will. There are no survivors like human survivors. And that means you and me. Take care!

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

And right now, right this minute, this day and hour, I no longer have any choice. Been floating for a long time and lots of things have happened, but if I want to make sure that really, really bad changes do not happen right now, today, this week, I have to bust right on through this emotional hurricane focussed on asking for things I need and want. I have to do it. I just have to do it. Can't get away from it any more. It's right here knocking on my door right now. Can't you hear it?

This is the week. How is it going? Have you done the tough stuff yet? Or is it still looming?

What advice does your T give when faced with this particular 'emotional hurricane'?

Just remember - you won't die.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by skysblue

This is the week. How is it going? Have you done the tough stuff yet? Or is it still looming? What advice does your T give when faced with this particular 'emotional hurricane'? Just remember - you won't die.

It's going. I'm doing what I have to do. At home, after hours, in the evening I drink more (no driving or fighting or any other bad effects). I try to dissociate but that's less and less possible. As for T, well this is really the first time I've had a "coming out of the fog" experience like this. I went into a world of my own three-four years ago, and now I'm poking my head out. T's out of town so we haven't had a chance to talk. Yes, I know I won't die. (Sigh) Take care.

[sittingatwatersedge]

((((((((((((((((((( ygrec ))))))))))))))))))) thinking of you.

[skysblue]

Besides alcohol, what other coping mechanisms are you utilizing?

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by skysblue

Besides alcohol, what other coping mechanisms are you utilizing?

Besides alcohol, let's see..... Hmmmmm..... Dissociation..... Eating.......... Smoking............ Household chores............ I guess that's about it.

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

Besides alcohol, let's see..... Hmmmmm..... Dissociation..... Eating.......... Smoking............ Household chores............ I guess that's about it.

So, Ygrec - are those methods working? Has your T suggested any other healthier coping mechanisms? If not, you're a smart guy - I'm sure you can find better ways to manage. Hey, do your research. You are very good at that.