[athena2011]

I keep wondering how normal people would act in a therapeutic relationship. For me, I was skeptical at first, especially when he handed me a three page fee sheet, told me it was 4x/week and could take 2 - 6 years. Thought he was crazier than I was for thinking that's appropriate. Seemed a bit self serving to me. I found him downright cold at that point. When I asked how it worked, he told me "Well, we develop a relationship..." After that I can't remember. But what I remember is what I thought about those words - a banker wants to have a "relationship" with you (and your money!), a salesman wants it too, everybody who wants something out of you wants a "relationship". So that's where I started. Then he did the whole empathy, listening, validation thing and I felt like I'd been hypnotized because I fell for it/him. I ended up with an intense fondness and appreciation for how he made me feel, and I suppose people here would call it 'love' and it did feel that way to me but I just wouldn't come out and say that after only 6 weeks in therapy because it just sounds so childish. Plus I know it's not real. Real is two way. This is not.

Then my head started going into thinking mode, rationalizing what was happening. I started reading up on positive transference. It said how patients can have a strong reaction to being heard and validated for the first time in their lives. Nowhere have I seen how normal people react. Do they just stay at the 'OK, so this guy's nice' stage and there's no more intensity in it than seeing their dentist? Or do they get strong feelings too?

Because the thing that bothers me about all this is that it seems like a setup. Do all the validation/empathy/listening stuff, knowing that the patient is going to fall for you, then make them tell you how you feel about them, then make them feel like a child for telling you, or having the feelings. Reject them (of course), saying something cold and clinical like 'Thank you for sharing that', then let them feel like a total idiot. Well, I'm sorry I've been put down enough, I do not need to be made to feel like a child. Then do a great job of pulling out all the details of the feeling, get every last bit out, then fail to do anything with it, just leave me hanging. I ask "so what does all this mean" and I get "I have no idea". NO IDEA????? F**k - why the hell put me through all this then? (all in my head) Then...I just try to come up with something else to talk about after having that bomb dropped on me. Barely able to think straight after that so I come up with something pointless to talk about.

I was wondering why I picked the song "I Don't Believe You" by Pink as one of the songs for the CD I made for him. I finally figured it out today. Two lines stand out: "You're the swingset, I'm the kid that falls" and "Don't just stand there and watch me fall". They so totally, totally reflect my sentiments. Do half the job, then stop and watch me squirm for what - the next 10, 20 years (yah, he lengthened it once he saw how negative I was getting). No skin off his nose if it takes that long. For me - devastation. Just the mere possibility of it haunts me on a daily basis.

So then he wonders where the positive transference went. Well, I think there's some pretty good clues above. There may be something else too...I did feel at one point that he was warm and caring. Like my Mom. Then it flipped back to my original impressions. I honestly have no idea which is true. Then there's a third option, so so so much worse. He is warm and caring...to everybody except me. Just like my Mom. She was outgoing, life of the party, had the gift of the gab, huggy, and welcoming to everybody...else but me. But when she was alone with me, she clammed right up. Seemed like she couldn't stand my presence. Said "Go do something with your father" like I was just unwanted. It's like she didn't know how to talk to me, what to say to me and didn't even want to try. This is somebody who never shuts up normally. Verbal diarrhea, almost. But couldn't say a word to me. OUCH! So I became self conscious around her - my own mother! Like, has that happened to ANYBODY else, EVER? At six freakin' years old...and ever since. What did I do to deserve that? My older brother told me I was a good kid - quiet, obedient, no trouble, did my homework, etc etc. I just don't get it, don't get it at all.

So now I feel like I have to do his job for him. Or find out what I'm doing wrong. He says there's no 'wrong way' to do it. Well, I think we've just discovered it! Man, I just feel so so so much worse than when therapy started. But they say with BPD patients, when things go badly, there's a huge risk of either the patient or the therapist giving up. OK, I've got a little more skin left on me, it's not been entirely ripped off yet. I suppose I could go print all this off and see if that gets things moving. But I fear he'll do what the so called 'bad' therapists do and take it personally and say "well, what are we still doing here then, this obviously isn't going to work". Because this is mostly in my head, other than the quotes from him and action or lack thereof that I have described. But I have a crappy memory, maybe I'm picking out all the bad parts because my emotional memory, the flight or fight part - takes up all the available space. None left for any positive but less intense feelings. Maybe I just can't communicate the way I'm supposed to (I warned him at the beginning that if this process can be mucked up, I will find a way to do it! - he didn't believe me, I think I should ask him what he thinks now when he gets back from vacation). He makes me so nervous now, I can barely think. I feel like I just rehash old topics, not resolving anything, knowing it will take me nowhere. And they get to a level just deep enough to make me relive the trauma, but not deep enough to get me through it and out the other side. The discussion just doesn't go where it needs to.

This is just all so horrible. I have no idea what to do about all this. I have massive patience for punishment in long-lasting relationships - for example 1)my family and 2) my ex. But I cannot afford to waste the next 20 years of my life in another soul destroying relationship.

Damn. Now I've worked myself up, just before bedtime, gotta find something to calm myself down.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by athena2011

But I fear he'll do what the so called 'bad' therapists do and take it personally and say "well, what are we still doing here then, this obviously isn't going to work".

If he is that kind of therapist, then the sooner you get rid of him, the better. So you have nothing to lose.

[KazzaX]

I can relate a lot to your post. These are questions that I have too.. nobody seems to be able to answer them. It's one of those "only YOU can answer these questions" type of thing.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by athena2011

especially when he handed me a three page fee sheet, told me it was 4x/week and could take 2 - 6 years.

It sounds as if you have psychoanalysis instead of just psychotherapy. Most people here only see their therapist once or twice a week, often even less and though they might be in therapy as long, it isn't as structured.

http://www.apsa.org/About_Psychoanalysis.aspx

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

If he is that kind of therapist, then the sooner you get rid of him, the better. So you have nothing to lose.

I know you're right - I guess I just feel like I have to walk on eggshells so this doesn't come out like an attack on him. Do you think this post is too 'over the top' to show him?

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

I can relate a lot to your post. These are questions that I have too.. nobody seems to be able to answer them. It's one of those "only YOU can answer these questions" type of thing.

Thanks for telling me this. I sometimes feel like I'm the only one with a stormy relationship with their T. So many threads here show that people have great T's and I do get rather jealous.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by Perna

It sounds as if you have psychoanalysis instead of just psychotherapy. Most people here only see their therapist once or twice a week, often even less and though they might be in therapy as long, it isn't as structured.

http://www.apsa.org/About_Psychoanalysis.aspx

Yes, it is psychoanalysis. But it doesn't feel structured at all. In fact, it feels like the opposite - very airy fairy, directionless. Thanks for the link. I have read up on Psychoanalysis but there is some very helpful info in your links. Still reading...

Originally Posted by athena2011

I know you're right - I guess I just feel like I have to walk on eggshells so this doesn't come out like an attack on him. Do you think this post is too 'over the top' to show him?

No, it's not over the top. It sounds very honest and direct to me. These are your thoughts and emotions, and I think you've expressed them very well. This is valuable info for your T, and might lead to a good discussion. Your feelings - own them.

[sweepy62]

Originally Posted by athena2011

I keep wondering how normal people would act in a therapeutic relationship. For me, I was skeptical at first, especially when he handed me a three page fee sheet, told me it was 4x/week and could take 2 - 6 years. Thought he was crazier than I was for thinking that's appropriate. Seemed a bit self serving to me. I found him downright cold at that point. When I asked how it worked, he told me "Well, we develop a relationship..." After that I can't remember. But what I remember is what I thought about those words - a banker wants to have a "relationship" with you (and your money!), a salesman wants it too, everybody who wants something out of you wants a "relationship". So that's where I started. Then he did the whole empathy, listening, validation thing and I felt like I'd been hypnotized because I fell for it/him. I ended up with an intense fondness and appreciation for how he made me feel, and I suppose people here would call it 'love' and it did feel that way to me but I just wouldn't come out and say that after only 6 weeks in therapy because it just sounds so childish. Plus I know it's not real. Real is two way. This is not.

Then my head started going into thinking mode, rationalizing what was happening. I started reading up on positive transference. It said how patients can have a strong reaction to being heard and validated for the first time in their lives. Nowhere have I seen how normal people react. Do they just stay at the 'OK, so this guy's nice' stage and there's no more intensity in it than seeing their dentist? Or do they get strong feelings too?

Because the thing that bothers me about all this is that it seems like a setup. Do all the validation/empathy/listening stuff, knowing that the patient is going to fall for you, then make them tell you how you feel about them, then make them feel like a child for telling you, or having the feelings. Reject them (of course), saying something cold and clinical like 'Thank you for sharing that', then let them feel like a total idiot. Well, I'm sorry I've been put down enough, I do not need to be made to feel like a child. Then do a great job of pulling out all the details of the feeling, get every last bit out, then fail to do anything with it, just leave me hanging. I ask "so what does all this mean" and I get "I have no idea". NO IDEA????? F**k - why the hell put me through all this then? (all in my head) Then...I just try to come up with something else to talk about after having that bomb dropped on me. Barely able to think straight after that so I come up with something pointless to talk about.

I was wondering why I picked the song "I Don't Believe You" by Pink as one of the songs for the CD I made for him. I finally figured it out today. Two lines stand out: "You're the swingset, I'm the kid that falls" and "Don't just stand there and watch me fall". They so totally, totally reflect my sentiments. Do half the job, then stop and watch me squirm for what - the next 10, 20 years (yah, he lengthened it once he saw how negative I was getting). No skin off his nose if it takes that long. For me - devastation. Just the mere possibility of it haunts me on a daily basis.

So then he wonders where the positive transference went. Well, I think there's some pretty good clues above. There may be something else too...I did feel at one point that he was warm and caring. Like my Mom. Then it flipped back to my original impressions. I honestly have no idea which is true. Then there's a third option, so so so much worse. He is warm and caring...to everybody except me. Just like my Mom. She was outgoing, life of the party, had the gift of the gab, huggy, and welcoming to everybody...else but me. But when she was alone with me, she clammed right up. Seemed like she couldn't stand my presence. Said "Go do something with your father" like I was just unwanted. It's like she didn't know how to talk to me, what to say to me and didn't even want to try. This is somebody who never shuts up normally. Verbal diarrhea, almost. But couldn't say a word to me. OUCH! So I became self conscious around her - my own mother! Like, has that happened to ANYBODY else, EVER? At six freakin' years old...and ever since. What did I do to deserve that? My older brother told me I was a good kid - quiet, obedient, no trouble, did my homework, etc etc. I just don't get it, don't get it at all.

So now I feel like I have to do his job for him. Or find out what I'm doing wrong. He says there's no 'wrong way' to do it. Well, I think we've just discovered it! Man, I just feel so so so much worse than when therapy started. But they say with BPD patients, when things go badly, there's a huge risk of either the patient or the therapist giving up. OK, I've got a little more skin left on me, it's not been entirely ripped off yet. I suppose I could go print all this off and see if that gets things moving. But I fear he'll do what the so called 'bad' therapists do and take it personally and say "well, what are we still doing here then, this obviously isn't going to work". Because this is mostly in my head, other than the quotes from him and action or lack thereof that I have described. But I have a crappy memory, maybe I'm picking out all the bad parts because my emotional memory, the flight or fight part - takes up all the available space. None left for any positive but less intense feelings. Maybe I just can't communicate the way I'm supposed to (I warned him at the beginning that if this process can be mucked up, I will find a way to do it! - he didn't believe me, I think I should ask him what he thinks now when he gets back from vacation). He makes me so nervous now, I can barely think. I feel like I just rehash old topics, not resolving anything, knowing it will take me nowhere. And they get to a level just deep enough to make me relive the trauma, but not deep enough to get me through it and out the other side. The discussion just doesn't go where it needs to.

This is just all so horrible. I have no idea what to do about all this. I have massive patience for punishment in long-lasting relationships - for example 1)my family and 2) my ex. But I cannot afford to waste the next 20 years of my life in another soul destroying relationship.

Damn. Now I've worked myself up, just before bedtime, gotta find something to calm myself down.

Hey your post makes alot of sense when i first went to therapy i did not know what it was all about, i told my t that i was nervous cuz it was my first time, she said its ok you dont have to be nervous or go at it alone, i asked her what do i do and say, she said whatever you want to share, we are going to develop an intimate therapeutic relationship, at that point i wanted to run away, i been hurt before by friends that i trusted and men and family, so i was not sure if i should go back, now its been a year, damn i have developed some sort of attachment i guess, because i miss her in between sessions, i totally am not wanting that. i dont want to have to miss her and i am totally angry at myself, i never knew what it felt like for someone to listen to me and not be judgemental and now i dont know if i like it, i know its gonna be eventually over, what do i do now?

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by athena2011

.....But I fear he'll do what the so called 'bad' therapists do and take it personally .......

((( athena ))) no it's not just you.

There was so much in your first post here that spoke to me, but I have picked out just the thing above

I fear the therapist who doesn't ever, ever, ever, ever take it personally. I know they strive not to, and I know why, but it seems perfectly reasonable for the client to feel, hey, buddy, have an argument with me, or at least a discussion; I just accused you, just insulted you here, can't you respond like a human being?

This whole oh-so-distanced thing is rankling me this week. sorry, maybe I shouldn't be saying anything, probably the wrong frame of mind entirely.

anyway to you. Try to keep in mind that "normal people" are usually far from normal, they're just in denial!!! I'm sure of it!!! I see a lot more sanity - patience, courage, compassion - here on PC than I find in most corners of the "real world".

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by athena2011

Thanks for telling me this. I sometimes feel like I'm the only one with a stormy relationship with their T. So many threads here show that people have great T's and I do get rather jealous.

Have you read any of mine? Stormy ambivilence if ever there was any.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by TheBunnyWithin

No, it's not over the top. It sounds very honest and direct to me. These are your thoughts and emotions, and I think you've expressed them very well. This is valuable info for your T, and might lead to a good discussion. Your feelings - own them.

Thanks Bunny - I needed to hear this. I do not trust my judgement on people anymore. I've made too many disastrous mistakes.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by sweepy62

Hey your post makes alot of sense when i first went to therapy i did not know what it was all about, i told my t that i was nervous cuz it was my first time, she said its ok you dont have to be nervous or go at it alone, i asked her what do i do and say, she said whatever you want to share, we are going to develop an intimate therapeutic relationship, at that point i wanted to run away, i been hurt before by friends that i trusted and men and family, so i was not sure if i should go back, now its been a year, damn i have developed some sort of attachment i guess, because i miss her in between sessions, i totally am not wanting that. i dont want to have to miss her and i am totally angry at myself, i never knew what it felt like for someone to listen to me and not be judgemental and now i dont know if i like it, i know its gonna be eventually over, what do i do now?

It's nice that you've kept a positive attachment. A little over a year ago when I had a strong attachment to my T, he warned me "At some point, something I say or do is going to make you very angry. It won't be intentional and I don't know what it will be but I'm just telling you in advance to expect it so you know it's coming." I didn't believe him at the time. Now I seem to be in the thick of it. He also said back then "Working through the angry feelings and getting through to the other side will be very healing". I'm a bit skeptical because I feel like I've been stuck in this mode for so long without moving an inch towards the other side. Maybe showing him this thread will help. Certain to stir things up at any rate - for better or for worse. Weird thing is - I miss him too, even though he's upsetting me so much.

So, sorry that's a bit long winded - but who knows - that may solve your positive attachment problem. Not sure about the 'missing your T' part. Probably a good question for her.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

((( athena ))) no it's not just you.

There was so much in your first post here that spoke to me, but I have picked out just the thing above

I fear the therapist who doesn't ever, ever, ever, ever take it personally. I know they strive not to, and I know why, but it seems perfectly reasonable for the client to feel, hey, buddy, have an argument with me, or at least a discussion; I just accused you, just insulted you here, can't you respond like a human being?

This whole oh-so-distanced thing is rankling me this week. sorry, maybe I shouldn't be saying anything, probably the wrong frame of mind entirely.

anyway to you. Try to keep in mind that "normal people" are usually far from normal, they're just in denial!!! I'm sure of it!!! I see a lot more sanity - patience, courage, compassion - here on PC than I find in most corners of the "real world".

Thank you Sitting. Yes, I want my T to take it personally in the moment and show some kind of reaction. I often say to him, "Tell me something to show me you are human". He's starting to get it. I sure didn't expect to have to train my T. I thought they were supposed to know how to act. Maybe I'm an outlier and what works for most people doesn't work for me and he's got to adjust. But I also need to know he can use his reaction to help me, then be able to shrug it off so it doesn't put us in a permanent negatively charged spiral downwards.

And I agree with you in respect to 'normal' people. I 'appeared' to be one of them for a long time. Nobody knew the emotional turmoil I was in. Not a soul. Except me. And I just didn't have time to deal with it until I cracked and was accompanied to a mental health facility.

[unaluna]

I think i'm finding "less is more" in therapy, as in art and interior design. We shouldn't be treating our sessions as an opportunity to stuff as much data as possible into this human computer we call T, expecting that the more raw data we feed in, the better good stuff we'll get out. First Law of Computers - GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. I'm starting to see my sessions now as my special time for me, to talk about what is important to me.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by hankster

I think i'm finding "less is more" in therapy, as in art and interior design. We shouldn't be treating our sessions as an opportunity to stuff as much data as possible into this human computer we call T, expecting that the more raw data we feed in, the better good stuff we'll get out. First Law of Computers - GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. I'm starting to see my sessions now as my special time for me, to talk about what is important to me.

Yes, I am trying to decide what is important to talk about and what isn't. What will lead somewhere and what won't. Lately, my sessions have been feeling exactly like GIGO. And that's where I think he's wrong in my case wrt free association. If all I have inside is garbage, there's no point free associating that. Better to consciously decide to control the direction the sessions are going in. 'Disorganized thinking' is a common symptom of BPD. If left to my own devices, that's what the therapy will be - completely and utterly disorganized, directionless and fruitless. I'd just like to follow one issue to its logical conclusion. Problem->detailed discussion from all angles->more helpful ways of looking at it->permanent solution....Then->next issue. I feel like there's too much branching out in all directions and everything is being looked at too superficially. It just feels too all over the place and therefore nothing is getting resolved. Sometimes I feel like I've said something so unthinkable that I leave him dumbfounded or something. I did have an experience recently with a family therapist where she was supposed to give us some strategies to help my girls and I get along better and help get the girls to a better place emotionally. Well, the therapist tried one thing, which I thought was ridiculous and I pretty much told her that along with my reasons. After that she refused to provide any more strategies, even though she admitted she had 'lots' more. Three days wasted. I was shocked and infuriated. No doubt that's become a concern for me with my therapy. If one therapist can give up and not bother trying any more strategies, then so can another.

Boy, your sessions sure sound a lot more fun!

[CantExplain]

[quote=sittingatwatersedge;2180205Try to keep in mind that "normal people" are usually far from normal, they're just in denial!!! I'm sure of it!!! I see a lot more sanity - patience, courage, compassion - here on PC than I find in most corners of the "real world". [/quote]

Yeah! I agree.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by athena2011

Thanks for telling me this. I sometimes feel like I'm the only one with a stormy relationship with their T. So many threads here show that people have great T's and I do get rather jealous.

I have a great T and a stormy relationship - at least it was for the first six years!

[mcl6136]

I urge you to listen to your heart and your gut on this one. Sounds like you're not really feeling like you're making progress...and the investment of time and money....which has been on my mind of late is HUGE.

could you back off a bit here? Give y ourself some time and space?

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Have you read any of mine? Stormy ambivilence if ever there was any.

Thanks for letting me know, Stopdog. I read ALL of your really long thread on 'quitting'. So much of it spoke to me. Particularly because I am very analytical (careers in Engineering then Finance) as you appear to be. I can't seem to get my head and heart in sync. One or the other takes over (usually my head) and the other is going "Huh?" Most of the time I feel horrible in therapy without even knowing why I feel horrible. Oh right, yes I do - because there's no progress, no perceivable structure (somebody here referred to Psychoanalysis as more structured than other forms of therapy and I had to pick my lower jaw off the floor after reading that!), it's all so airy fairy and I don't see any motivation on the part of my T to speed things up. I flip between feeling like 1) the magician doesn't want to give away his tricks and 2) thinking that maybe he's not able to apply the structure part of the process for some reason so has just resorted to 'winging' it. Anyway, after reading your thread, I have drawn up a list of questions for my T. I think writing them down plus his answers will ensure that I actually get an answer. <Now that just brought back a memory: I asked him what xxx experience in therapy meant and he said he had no idea. That really, really pissed me off. Then the issue BECAME "Why won't he just damn well answer the question?" Now you may point out that he did in fact answer my question, so either 1) I can't tolerate his answer or 2) I don't believe him and seem to feel he's withholding something from me or 3) both. Now I'm not so obsessed with what the experience meant, but I am totally obsessed with his evasiveness. OK, after just saying that, I know the problem is 3)both.

I hope you have made some progress since starting that thread.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

I have a great T and a stormy relationship - at least it was for the first six years!

I'm curious - what is it now then?

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by mcl6136

I urge you to listen to your heart and your gut on this one. Sounds like you're not really feeling like you're making progress...and the investment of time and money....which has been on my mind of late is HUGE.

could you back off a bit here? Give y ourself some time and space?

Actually, I suppose I'm on a 'forced backoff' at the moment. He's off on holiday for 4 weeks. Lots of reflection happening right now given how much I'm posting on the topic. However the thought of leaving him for an extended period terrifies me. I thought he was trying to fire me at one point (figures - happened on a Friday afternoon) and I spent the next two days freaking out. I started getting so paranoid, thought my kids' T had pressured him to fire me, among other things. So, clearly I still have some kind of attachment to him. I have no other support systems, I suppose that comes into it. Just me, myself and I. And I have to factor in the fact that I can't get my ex to sign divorce papers is probably contributing in large measure to my lack of progress in therapy. It's akin to 'Can a terrorist's prisoner heal while she is still held captive?' So I have to remind myself that merely surviving is probably the best I can hope for until I get the source of my ongoing CC-PTSD resolved (my made up term for Current Complex PTSD).

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by athena2011

... told me it was 4x/week and could take 2 - 6 years.

This is rare honesty. Most Ts (including mine) conceal how long therapy is going to take. They just say, "It depends."

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

This is rare honesty. Most Ts (including mine) conceal how long therapy is going to take. They just say, "It depends."

Yah, that was a bit of a shock. But I got over it. What I can't get over was the downgrade to 10-20 years and the addition of the word 'no guarantees'. I have lost faith in the process so many times since therapy started. But his faith and conviction sustained me just enough to make some progress and have some shred of hope that things can get better. Now it feels as if that has vanished and I am 100% completely on my own again. The connection I had with him at the beginning has gone too. I am questioning everything - him, the process, myself.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by athena2011

I'm curious - what is it now then?

It's not stormy any more.

I can feel her love nearly all the time I'm there. She doesn't have to say it or show it. I no longer feel she's holding out on me.