Is it ever acceptable for a T to get angry with a client?

Hey, I'm from the older generation and I've never heard that expression. Maybe it's a midwest colloquialism.

I spit on the cleaned up version. The other has much more content. BTW, my grandma ended it with, "What do you have more of?" Of course she also said, "Sorry means 'spit'." And "I don't know whether to 'spit' or go blind." (cleaned up for the kiddies). This next one may have been exclusive to my very strange family. When someone was really good looking she'd say "I wouldn't put his face up on a fence post and throw 'spit' at it."

With the exception of the one about apologies, her sayings have come in surprisingly handy. She was a colorful woman--a crude, colorful woman.

You're not alone, Skysblue. I've never heard that one either! Could be a midwest thing. I've always lived in the northeast.

My T gets angry and calls me on my **** as dies my pDoc all the time! That's why I like them especially my pdoc, I've been with her for 22 years and she reams me at least three times a year. That's why I respect her. Uf she didn't care she wouldn't take her tine to find out how I was doing and call me on my crap and threaten to either put me on my place or put me back in the hospital if I don't shape up! I usually listen. My T is the same way they have the right to express themselves in the interest of your care for your best health they're not trying to hurt you but help you is what I get out of it.

Another time I told him I was drinking. His eyes got real big.

Nah. I live in almost the smack dab middle of the country and I've never heard that one. I always heard, "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

Hmm... I don't think I've heard the wishes and beggars one either! Maybe I'm just colloquially challenged.

mine has been frustrated with the situation that we were stuck in, and that she couldn't help out more. that is what she said, but i think she was also frustrated at me--how could you not?

i could see her getting mad if i showed up drunk or otherwise intoxicated or told her about something stupid i did that was working on sabotaging our therapy.

on the other end of things, my T recently told me that i am allowed to show anger in there, and towards her!!! YEAH RIGHT, T! I told her i couldn't even imagine doing that, and she goes, "Well when it happens, we know progress will have been made"

Another time i was talking about how i can sometimes feel uncomfortable around opening gifts with family--because some family members give me some AWFUL gifts, and i just have to fake it that i love it. my T goes "well if you got a gift in here (theoretically), you can totally tell me you hate it!" and she said it with such happiness in her face.

i have never heard of this either, but the other one didn't really even make sense to me
i'm from the NE as well, and hadn't heard of these things. I think the first quote was more of a family thing than a cultural thing. and i bet it is a cultural thing for MKAC, you know bc there are horses and beggars out there. MKAC's quote is interesting, and made me think of beggars can't be choosers. what is the exact meaning behind yours, mkac'?

After I posted that, I was thinking that it was my grandma from Arkansas that used to say it, so maybe it's more of a hillbilly thing. LOL. Anyway, she used that phrase to express how useless it was to WISH for anything. What is, just IS, and wishing it were different is a waste of time and energy. Probably the beginnings of my lifelong ambition not to want anything unless I am absolutely certain I can get it.

I just thought it was interesting to add that I emailed my T this morning, and said I was worried because I thought he was mad at me for something I said to him yesterday. He said, "I'm NOT mad, I do NOT get mad at you, I am your therapist." I guess that clears things up a bit.

For some reason, I get great comfort out of hearing my T actually say "I am your therapist." It makes me feel all warm inside. I wonder why...

I've heard the beggars and horses thing - my family is from Ohio and from England and Scotland originally.

Me too! That's the first time he ever said that to me.

No emotions are wrong; they simply are. It is how we handle them that is important.

That wouldn't be reassuring to me. The therapy relationship is unique but it's still a relationship, and I don't think it's healthy for either party to completely discount the possibility of the therapist experiencing anger toward the patient at some point in the relationship, especially in long term therapy. I think a healthy T is very much aware of his feelings and his reactions, and he allows himself to experience all of them as they arise, so that he can figure out where they're coming from and use them as a guide to his future behavior. I think when a T rejects the possibility of ever feeling anger toward a patient because he is a T, he leaves himself vulnerable to potentially harmful counter-transference reactions, because no one becomes immune to anger just because he or she has a degree and a license to treat people with mental health issues. It's not wrong or bad for a T to feel anger toward a patient in certain circumstances, and I think a T who says that he doesn't get angry because he's a T gives his patients the message that it's not only possible but actually desirable to eliminate certain feelings based on the context of a relationship. I know my T wouldn't tell me he doesn't get angry because he's a T. He would tell me (and has told me) that it takes a lot longer for him to feel anger or frustration toward patients than toward some other people in his life for a couple of reasons -- the first is that he understands our struggles and our behaviors as being learned and in some cases necessary for our survival, so it's easier to step back and feel compassion rather than anger. The second is that there is (or should be) just enough professional distance in the relationship to prevent him from becoming too vulnerable to having his own buttons pushed in the way that close friends or family members sometimes manage to do. But, my T is still human, and he is capable of experiencing all emotions in every relationship, including ours. One of the things we should all learn in therapy is that all feelings are acceptable, and it's how we handle them that matters most.

That is so interesting! My therapist said the opposite when I questioned whether he would ever get mad at me, and what would happen if he did. He said, "Of course I'm going to get mad at you at some point. We have a relationship and no relationship is perfect, and no two people ever go through their entire lives without making each other angry. When we get angry at each, we're going to talk about it and work through it." And that response was really reassuring to me. Because I KNOW that I piss people off sometimes. I want to know someone isn't just going to ditch me, or use my private information against me just because I've made a mistake, or made them angry.

What is counter-transference? I think he told me he doesn't get mad at me because I ALWAYS assume he is mad at me. All day, everyday as a result of anything I say. I have never actually given him an actual reason to be mad at me. He has been frustrated, and told me he was frustrated. I don't think he means he is incapable of being mad because he is my therapist. But because he is my therapist he understands the things I say and does not get mad because my feelings do not accurately reflect the reality of the situation...and he understands that.

The broad and simple definition of countertransference is that it's the totality of feelings and reactions experienced by the T toward the patient, but some T's define it more narrowly as the feelings and reactions a T has toward a patient that originate in the T's own unconscious or unresolved issues.
I think your last sentence is basically what I meant when I wrote that the T understands our struggles, and he doesn't take it personally.

My T was certainly angry at me when she thought I was going to dump her. I actually challenged her on this later and she said she was FURIOUS.

Now you might think this is unprofessional and you might be right. But she says her first duty is to be real with me. Meaning, I suppose, that if she is angry with me it is wrong for her to hide it.

Hmmmm... This seems to be contrary to what everyone else is saying. But it works for us.

Glad it works for you, but I had enough "furious" from my ex-husband, so I much prefer my T's philosophy -- his first duty isn't to be real with me regardless of its possible effect on me -- his first duty is to think about and understand his real reaction and then share it with me only if it's likely to be helpful. In my case, furious would not be helpful at all, especially if he was furious about being dumped.

Did she tell you why she was furious about you thinking about exercising your right to go elsewhere? I am just curious.

I see nothing wrong with our therapist being angry, frustrated or upset with us. I do believe that they are human in engaging in us, hopefully, in a real and genuine manner. Do I think it's okay for any therapist to EXPRESS their emotions in an over the top way (yelling, shouting, swearing, physically aggressive actions)? Absolutely not! I want my therapist to tell me when I'm acting in a way that is eliciting strong emotions in her in a way that is controlled, modeling for me how I can express those feelings in my own life. And even if I don't see myself as being provoking or unreasonable, I want her to be real with me. It helps me to see how I should be responding in my own life to others. It teaches me to be real and genuine in my responses to others.

Thanks for this I just asked my t about this. He says I'm supposed to use my looking to him as a parent as a model for my future relationships, but I don't understand how I can do that if he won't ever get mad at me now.

If you're anything like me, lostmyway, you expect others to respond to you in a way that you are familiar with from long ago. When I was emotional with my family members, I was viewed as "over the top" or "too emotional" .. . and perhaps I was because I was extremely sensitive and passionate in my response to things. I would cry easily as a child when challenged by my father but that wouldn't stop me from challenging him. . . I had a bit of the rebel in me But my response usually lead to me being shamed or embarrassed in some way. Now I'm learning as an adult how to respond in a way that lets others know how I disagree but in a way that is modulated and rational. I do believe that your therapist is right in saying that he wants to be a parental model on how things should be done! I'm glad he's willing!

i would retreat completely into my shell if my T said she was angry at me. I do not handle anger well.