[SpiritRunner]

My last few days have been a mixed bag.....
My H was sort of being his old self - which means he was being more critical, condescending, and controlling. Yesterday in particular he kept sniping at me, being snarky, talking to me as if I were a stupid child.....grrr. We usually have a glass of wine b4 bed and talk about stuff and we have done well being open, but I was feeling so hurt I sort of wanted to revert to shutdown mode......but I did manage to tell him about one particular incidence.....which somehow, he managed to turn from my feelings about what he said into his feelings about what I said about what he did after that....it was like, I'm sorry you feel like it was a bad thing that I went ahead and did that for you; I thought you'd like someone else to do it for you since you couldn't seem to do, but no, you don't appreciate it (me). I was like, no, this is really about how you said what you said and my feelings about that! Then he's like, so what else is bothering you? As if I wanted to tell him anything else when he got so defensive and turned it all back on me, as if I was really wrong to feel upset when he said something hurtful. I really really wanted to call T2, but then she didn't answer her phone, so I thought, oh well, I'm a big girl, I'll just try to process this the best I can, see if I react differently/approach H differently and maybe he'll see/acknowledge his attitude/words; I thought, maybe I can allow myself to feel about this differently too - I don't have to believe I am a stupid child, just because he talks to me that way, because I am not!
But......he's tried, I've tried, to really communicate better, so it's disheartening to have this huge backslide. Have we really changed; have we really improved our relationship as much as I thought/hoped?
But then T did call this morning! I was at the gym, so missed it......but she had good news that makes me feel better. She sent the letter/forms/info to the mental health board to get me free from my commitment.....yay! I'm SO pleased that that looks like it will finally happen.
And I am happy I still do have her to check in with when I need to......sometimes I think I don't really need therapy, but then I think, yeah, I like having someone to run this stuff by, to get some reassurance, to see if I'm missing something, get a reality check, etc......

[Perna]

I'm really glad you got good news about the mental health board freedom.

I was thinking about what you said about how you and your husband keep "missing" each other's point and not validating one another, etc.

Originally Posted by SpiritRunner

as if I was really wrong to feel upset when he said something hurtful

We can only talk about ourselves. In your situation I would try to learn to say, "When you say/said X, I felt hurt. You are the one with the feeling, it is yours. If we say, "You said X and hurt my feelings", that is an accusation of the other person, that tells the other person they are responsible for your feelings. What happens if I say to you, "You said you like my new haircut and hurt my feelings." You'd be helpless wondering how that could be. How about if I added, "Since you like my haircut now, you must not have liked it before." Because I believe that, you can see how I would feel hurt, however, you still are not part of the equation; you did not hurt my feelings, my own false belief hurt my feelings.

If I say to you, "You said you like my new haircut and I felt hurt." You are not feeling blamed for my hurt and are concerned that I feel hurt and curious as to why so ask me, "Oh! Why did my saying I like your new haircut cause you to feel hurt do you think? That doesn't sound like much fun!" And so I respond then add, "Well, I believe that since you like my haircut now, you must not have liked it before?" (notice the question mark) To this you fall all over yourself saying, "No! No! I liked it before too! I love your hair any way you wear it, it's so nice and thick and shiny and I'm actually a little jealous since mine is stick straight and so thin; I don't feel there is much exciting that I can do with it."

Accept responsibility for your own feelings, don't accuse the other person of "making you feel" something, and keep curious about why other people feel the way they feel about things. If you say to your husband, "You hurt my feelings" and he replies with, "I guess you didn't like what I did for you. . ." you miss out on a great discussion with someone you love about nice, thick, shiny hair

[SpiritRunner]

Thanks, Perna, that's sound advice.
That is however what I have been trying to do, make the I statement, saying I feel, etc.....and certainly how I believe I put things yest, unless I'm just thinking I did/or he still heard the 'you made me feel.....'. I was like, I felt hurt when you said that in that way, it sounded condescending to me, like you were talking to me as if I were stupid and exasperating.....and he was like, I don't understand why you can't just do what you're told.....
Ok, this was over a stupid toilet! He wanted me to clean the toilet.....well, so I did. I cleaned the inside of it, thought about cleaning the outside too, however I didn't, because my mind was on something else I needed to do next.....but he wanted me to clean the outside, not the inside. So, it sort of turned into a federal case.....and he was like, do you need me to show you how to clean the toilet? Or do you just want me to go do it myself since you don't seem to know how to or want to do it right? grrrr (I dang well know how to clean the toilets.....I am the one who does it 95% of the time anyway!) So.....what I said later was, I was hurt when you said that in that way; it didn't seem necessary to talk me like that......His response was, well, I don't know why you wouldn't just clean the whole toilet, most people would do that you know. Then he said, so I cleaned the other toilets for you, and I thought you'd appreciate it, but I guess you don't, blah blah. I was like, this is NOT about the toilets or me not appreciating that you cleaned them; this is about how I felt about what you said!
So....I felt hurt and frustrated that I tried to communicate my feelings in relation to his words without actually accusing him of causing them....but he felt accused anyway! How does one ever negotiate this interpersonal tangle anyway and not go nuts?! (there needs to be a hair tearing out smiley )

[Perna]

Stay away from "was", a state of being ("I was hurt" implies all of you was in that state, you were hurtfulness personified :-) and state how you feel/felt.

"I was hurt when you said that in that way"; it might sound picky but I would feel better if it were reversed, "When you said that in that way, I felt hurt." You are trying to talk about what they said and understanding it, not about your feeling hurt. You felt hurt, that is established but you aren't "sure" why you felt hurt, you are exploring the cause and effect so put the possible "cause" first instead of your "I felt hurt when you. . ." which more or less cements their action into place as being a hurtful one and does not allow teasing out why, "when you said that in that way. . . I felt"?

For me, the key is to concentrate on my curiosity about how I tick, not about how they tick :-) It is a little like triggers; we have to disengage our own, it's not the person who pulls it that is the problem, but the trigger being ours in the first place. Your husband said something you found hurtful; rather than dwell on "how" hurt you feel and wishing you did not feel hurt (too late!) or on your husband being a hurtful b#st*rd :-) concentrate on "why" what was said, affected you that way? Don't judge yourself though! You are not bad or wrong for feeling hurt and even if you discover that there was some wrong thought of yours in the way later, rejoice that the opportunity came up to find and fix it!

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Perna

Accept responsibility for ...

Ouch! Trigger!

I always hear:
1. "You're irresponsible."
2. "I'm going to punish you."

[SpiritRunner]

Ok, I get it.....about how changing the order of the sentence, or using I felt rather than I was, can change the focus and the effect of my words. And I can change my focus.....instead of being all pissed off that my H is being an insensitive a $ $ and compounding it by continuing to be one when I try to talk to him about my feeling and focusing on that, I can try to step and think, hmmm, what is going on in me here and how can I deal with that? I can learn to deal with my feelings and react differently ..... can't change that I did feel hurt, but I could change how I act/react toward him, so I don't perpetuate the communication breakdown/misperception issue.
I find it does help too to realize that some of what he says comes out of an insecurity or a perception that he's not enough as well as a perfectionist standard ...... so it's not that it means he really does think I'm a stupid child, or that I need to feel judged/wronged ...... I don't need to judge him as an all bad person either (just cuz someone has a tendency to act like an a-hole at times, doesn't they are completely an a-hole in general!)
I know sometimes I am highly sensitive and sometimes my past gets in the way too ..... when I hear him talk like that, I hear my mom and dad .... so sometimes I could be sort of going back in time emotionally and reacting to him as if I'm reacting to them ......
But I think in this case, I wasn't really over-sensitive/ over-reactive ..... I'm thinking he really did talk/act like an oblivious, insensitive a $ $, but I also reacted initially like a wounded child, though I tried to correct that reaction when I noticed it .....
Why can't this stuff be simpler ....... so many emotions/reactions/intentions all tangled together, words/actions that don't match, assumptions made?

[Perna]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Ouch! Trigger!

I always hear:
1. "You're irresponsible."
2. "I'm going to punish you."

That's coming from outside! Accepting responsibility comes from the inside, from ourselves and our wants, desires, choices :-)

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Ouch! Trigger!

I always hear:
1. "You're irresponsible."
2. "I'm going to punish you."

I get that in my head too ...... and then, too, that's kind of the way my H triggers me sometimes.
Yeah, I KNOW I am responsible for my feelings ...... but then, too, if someone really cares about me and has learned that certain statements are hurtful/triggering to me, then doesn't he have a certain responsibility to try NOT to trip that trigger - he may not be responsible for emotions/thoughts about it, but still, is he not responsible in a sense for the influence he has ..... and isn't there a responsibility to be more thoughtful/careful with hearts/hurts of those you love?
So I feel like it's a sort of 2way street in some sense ....... no, no one MADE me have a certain feeling, but that doesn't mean that they have NO responsibility or whatever for how they affected me (talking more about those closer to me). And I don't know.....do I entirely choose my feelings....or do they sometimes choose me and then I choose how I react to them?
I get this sort of thing with my H, like I did last night too ..... that it really is my fault/responsibility, the whole situation - that I could have avoided the whole dang thing if I had just done the job right, that I provoked and deserved his critical/condescending reaction, that there was something in me that hurt HIS feelings by expressing my hurt ones, and that I should apologize ..... grrrr ...... Of course, all of his feelings/reactions/tendencies/bad coping skills aren't my fault either....but still, the old old core belief of me being bad and being a stupid child and deserving punishment/emotional pain is still in there.

[learning1]

i think, in addition to all the considerations you came up with about where he's coming from and how you could change your attitude, keep politely and persistently standing up for yourself by stating what you feel. You shouldn't have to be spoken to in a demeaning way. Don't go so far in changing your own attitude that you're not honest about your own hurt feelings. Just like you're working on your attitude, your h might need to hear a bunch of repetitions before he behaves himself better. And your t might need to hear it too, so that s/he doesn't think the issue is over with when you still feel hurt.

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by learning1

i think, in addition to all the considerations you came up with about where he's coming from and how you could change your attitude, keep politely and persistently standing up for yourself by stating what you feel. You shouldn't have to be spoken to in a demeaning way. Don't go so far in changing your own attitude that you're not honest about your own hurt feelings. Just like you're working on your attitude, your h might need to hear a bunch of repetitions before he behaves himself better. And your t might need to hear it too, so that s/he doesn't think the issue is over with when you still feel hurt.

thanks, this is a good balanced way to look at it ...... respecting his side of the situation, but not at the cost of devaluing my own feelings about it ...
this is pretty much what T said to me when I talked to her last night ..... she validated me in my feelings about it and agreed that there's stuff on both our sides, although she kind of felt like he had behaved like an ***. she said it's something we need to bring into session with our marriage T, to see what is underlying it for both of us.
on a different note, in regard to the other thing I mentioned in my original post, she said she'd send me a copy of the letter/notes she sent to the mental health board, and that there will likely have to be a hearing I have to go to in order to get formally released. she said she did make it clear in the letter that even though we ended our official therapy that she has been doing a weekly check-in with me, and also that she recommended I have a therapist here. I asked if there would be a problem about getting released from the commitment if I didn't really feel like I wanted to pursue getting another T at this time ...... she didn't there should be a problem really, but that she felt like it was wise for me to continue therapy with someone, since we didn't end because therapy was done, just because I had to move. Dang it, I don't really want another T/to do therapy...I just want to keep checking in with her every week for the next forever!