[CantExplain]

Hi gang!

Today I talked to T about the end of the Good Group.

I talked about the Horrible Event that took place and how I had felt (correctly as it happens) that the group would never be the same again. In my heart I felt that T had betrayed the group by not acting soon enough to ensure its safety. The group straggled on for another nine months, but people left and eventually T decided to wind the group up. (The first to leave was a woman I was particularly attached to. I viewed her as a daughter.)

So I was angry with T but I couldn't express that anger. This damaged our connection and led to a rupture. The rupture happened before the group came to an end and was not repaired until after the group was properly buried.

That's the story I told T.

Then she told me the story from her perspective. We've been together nine years now, and she revealed a lot more than a therapist would normally say. I take this as a compliment. We're adults and equals.

She reminded me that the group had rarely run at a profit due to the high overheads. The room had to be paid for and whatever was left over had to be split between two facilitators. It was almost volunteer work. She said, "You were the only one to work this out and to raise it in the group. I thank you for that."

Her main motivation for running the group is that she wanted the experience of running a group. It was an experiment, a recreational project.

New members - suitable new members - were very hard to find.

Here's the thorn.

She pointed out that this was the year when my hate mail campaign reached a climax. The hate mail had a draining effect on her and was a contributing factor to her decision to stop the group. How guilty I feel about this remains to be seen.

So when the Horrible Event took place and people started leaving, she felt that enough was enough.

[sittingatwatersedge]

I can't and don't ever expect to understand the benefits of group therapy, but it creeps me out to think that something I was told I could depend on to help me get well, could be just somebody's experiment, because they wanted to gain some experience (while I pay them for it).

The chance to be a lab rat, and someone's learning curve, at the same time. Where does being a soul in need of healing come in? I don't think that guilt would plague me very much after that conversation with T.

sorry if this sounds very negative, just me own $0.02

[stopdog]

Do you know the correlation between being in the group and sending her the hate mail?
Does it matter what her motivation was in running the group?

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Do you know the correlation between being in the group and sending her the hate mail?
Does it matter what her motivation was in running the group?

Unfortunately my records are not sufficiently detailed to show correlation.

Her motivation is important.
* If it was solely a question of money, then it wasn't my fault the group came to an end.
* If she was doing it for fun, maybe it was.

So yes, it matters a great deal to me.

[unaluna]

i'm reading carl rogers as recommended by this board recently. he left pretty explicit instructions for his own behavior as a leader in group, so... anyway, CE, right now I see you in the same place I was myself some years back - kind of chafing at taking the responsibility, the blame, for certain things that went wrong. The good news is, the job of therapy is not to make you pay the kitty for those old bad hands you were dealt, but to help you see how you could have played your cards differently - if you CAN really learn that? taking responsibility for past or future actions will be so much easier.

[CantExplain]

My T said to be gentle with myself over this new knowledge, but I'm not actually in any real danger.
My denial is still in pretty good shape, protecting me from unwanted guilt.

We are talking about consequences that I did not intend and could not have foreseen.

Also, T admitted that if the Horrible Event had not occurred, people wouldn't have left the group and it could have kept going.
The Horrible Event was not my doing, nor was it my job to stop it.

I won the 2009 Pontius Pilate Award for Manual Hygiene.

[WikidPissah]

sorry for being daft, but I can't remember what the "horrible event" was. In any event, blaming you for the groups demise wasn't very professional.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

I won the 2009 Pontius Pilate Award for Manual Hygiene.

Better than the Lady Macbeth Award?

[mcl6136]

You've built a lot of energy around the Horrible Event.

Any way we can learn what it is?

Hankster would usually ask this kind of question, I'm merely standing in.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by mcl6136

Hankster would usually ask this kind of question, I'm merely standing in.

Hey, don't put words in my mouth! Take responsibility for your own feelings! Did your life coach teach you to do this?! I am perfectly willing to watch and wait. All in good time. Hey, I get paid by the minute! and i'm worth every penny .00000000000000 what was avogadro's number? CE already ignored everything I wrote above, i'm not going in again!

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by WikidPissah

sorry for being daft, but I can't remember what the "horrible event" was. In any event, blaming you for the groups demise wasn't very professional.

I never spelt out what the Horrible Event was. I wonder why not? Something to do with privacy I think. Or perhaps shame.

Anyway, here it is:

One of the group members was persistently cruel to another group member. The facilitators didn't intervene and in the end it was a third group member who called a halt to it.

I assumed the facilitators knew what they were doing and held back for a good reason. (I remember thinking: Why doesn't T stop this?) But T admits that she made a mistake.


T is not directly blaming me for the group's demise. She's telling me how she felt.

I don't yet know why she is telling me this. (Must ask!) But she wouldn't tell me if she didn't think I was ready for it. I'm assuming this is an advanced technique for experienced patients!

Normally I would agree with you, WP. T is not supposed to bring those kinds of feelings to the party. I'm allowed to be angry at my T and I'm allowed to shout at her. And that's not supposed to have any real-world consequences.

ACTUAL DIALOG FROM YESTERDAY'S SESSION:

Me: I've been telling people on the internet that it's OK to be angry at your therapist and that therapists are used to being shouted at.
T: Good!

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Perna

Better than the Lady Macbeth Award?

Pontius Pilate washed his hands to show he didn't accept responsibility.
Lady MacBeth washed her hands to show she did.

Pontius Pilate is my role model. I've based my whole life on his teachings.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by hankster

Hey, don't put words in my mouth! Take responsibility for your own feelings! Did your life coach teach you to do this?! I am perfectly willing to watch and wait. All in good time. Hey, I get paid by the minute! and i'm worth every penny .00000000000000 what was avogadro's number? CE already ignored everything I wrote above, i'm not going in again!

Sorry Hankster. I didn't understand you. I often have trouble following you these days.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Me: it's OK to be angry at your therapist and that therapists are used to being shouted at.
!

CE - something we agree on.

[WikidPissah]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Me: I've been telling people on the internet that it's OK to be angry at your therapist and that therapists are used to being shouted at.
T: Good!

Gawd I want the chucks to yell at my T!!!

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Sorry Hankster. I didn't understand you. I often have trouble following you these days.

Oh well. I might have to start editing.

CE, were you the third group member?

[CantExplain]

I wish! I was just thinking "Maybe the facilitators are holding back because they want us to act" when the third member made her move.

Interesting, CE.

I do agree with you, I wonder if you never talked about it here because of shame? You "wished" you had been the one who intervened and it began (or heightened) your hate mail campaign.

I'm glad your T and you were able to talk about it so honestly now.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by lost in termination

You "wished" you had been the one who intervened and it began (or heightened) your hate mail campaign.

Plausible, but I'm not sure the dates match up. (I have the sort of suspicious, rational mind that is so useful as a technician and such an obstacle in therapy.)

The way I remember it, T had already put a stop to my hate campaign before this incident occurred. That may not be the way she remembers it. We may never know. I will ask anyway.

Yes, I was ashamed that I wasn't the one to intervene. But I worked that through in the group and I believe I'm over it.

[SkyBlueCure]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Hi gang!

Today I talked to T about the end of the Good Group.

I talked about the Horrible Event that took place and how I had felt (correctly as it happens) that the group would never be the same again. In my heart I felt that T had betrayed the group by not acting soon enough to ensure its safety. The group straggled on for another nine months, but people left and eventually T decided to wind the group up. (The first to leave was a woman I was particularly attached to. I viewed her as a daughter.)

So I was angry with T but I couldn't express that anger. This damaged our connection and led to a rupture. The rupture happened before the group came to an end and was not repaired until after the group was properly buried.

That's the story I told T.

Then she told me the story from her perspective. We've been together nine years now, and she revealed a lot more than a therapist would normally say. I take this as a compliment. We're adults and equals.

She reminded me that the group had rarely run at a profit due to the high overheads. The room had to be paid for and whatever was left over had to be split between two facilitators. It was almost volunteer work. She said, "You were the only one to work this out and to raise it in the group. I thank you for that."

Her main motivation for running the group is that she wanted the experience of running a group. It was an experiment, a recreational project.

New members - suitable new members - were very hard to find.

Here's the thorn.

She pointed out that this was the year when my hate mail campaign reached a climax. The hate mail had a draining effect on her and was a contributing factor to her decision to stop the group. How guilty I feel about this remains to be seen.

So when the Horrible Event took place and people started leaving, she felt that enough was enough.

Trigger - Caution : Challenging Post Ahead

First of all, my remarks here do not necessarily apply to support groups, but to therapy groups which which have as their goal to facilitate self-change and help people internalize growth processes which can make them independent and self-actualizing.

Similarly, they don't necessarily apply to those groups which may deal with those having psychotic breaks and/or be attending involuntarily and the like.

If you think what I write doesn't fit you, then that may be, just consider it written to distribute general information. My purpose here is to distribute some ideas about effective therapy.

====>
Life hurt can hurt and it hurts big time over and over. We win some and then lose and lose again and again but we hope to heal from when it breaks us and become more resilient.

My own first therapist and mentor died many years ago and the groups run in his organization long ago dissolved. All those times, conflicts, arguments, excitements, pain, fear, sharing with others are gone and over. I often feel sad and nostalgic when I remember them but my life goes on and goes elsewhere. And I owe my life to them so I am grateful for those experiences.

So maybe if an involvement is about to end a person might engage in negative behaviors or negative expressions to try to stop it. But it can't be stopped, life goes on, things end, it ends it ends. One loses.

So maybe it is better to use this experience to learn to accept loss and to lose gracefully. Being involved in negative expression may temporally mask many other things and when the dust of the mind mind settles and your angers have been given up you many find there are other things you wish you have said in your good byes, but maybe it will be too late.

To end gracefully means it is easier to pick up again either with the same people the same processes or with other people.
So just let it go.
Take a deep breath and let go.
===>
I used to make friends with some of the participants of the groups outside of therapy. It was my prerogative, it was outside of therapy, not therapy and I think everyone in our culture has this freedom.

However, therapy is not a social club, entertainment a support group or a family gathering - it might be have those things , but only temporally in support of the the goals of therapy. It can replicate those things sometimes but it's purpose is not to replace those things.

A person might feel sad or unhappy that another member of the group has gone, but this need not at all all interfere with one' progress or working in the group. If it does it then it is an item to work on and overcome to accept loss and move on with the work. In other words the responsibility of work lies with the person and not with other person s who may or may not be there.
Everything is the work, the only product of therapy that means anything is the is the effects of work produced. Everything is for this.

===>
If you got something out of the group experience and the therapist also is rewarded in some way then that is a fair exchange. I had subsidiary sessions , one on one with junior therapists in training, it was all grist to the mill, and actually helped my breakthrough.
If you have gotten something good and valuable te it is good and valuable always and will stay with you. To poison what you have gained because of the sorrows of a breakup is not constructive. Therapy or growth process teach us to complete ourselves and be constructive for ourselves.

Or as Bruce Lee said: Absorb what is useful!

Good Groups:

I have been in hundreds of groups, most 1 hr,,45 min each, all weekend intensives with all kinds of people and in all of them the people worked. There was no group in which people didn't work, every session was a success.
This was because the therapists ran the groups , not the patients/clients.
Sometimes you had to line up to take a ticket ,other times the therapist would have to do something to facilitate involvement when everybody's energies were low but every session was a success, everyone always worked to some extent taking some share of the time, the time was always used well. That is the therapists job, not the job of the patients, to help people work, to know how to confront, involve, give exercises and facilitate and teach personal growth. If they can't do this then they are failing at their job.

Group therapy uses the other people in the group to help facilitate work for individuals in many unique ways. But that is all a bonus, the onus of work is always on the individual and the therapist can always find their work point and show them the work to be done regardless of who else in in the room.
This is their job and that is the nature of doing therapeutic work for patients. A circle of chairs and a therapist, one patient or many - it doesn't matter. No one else is to blame for a person not doing work and making progress except the person themselves - unless the therapist fails,which is always likely and in that case one can change therapists. that is something else to think about.

Suitable people: The only limitations in the groups I was ever in, was that everyone was not suffering psychotic breaks in the here and now. This type of therapy did not handle that type. For all else , everyone was suitable.
Whether people work of not, does not depend on who is in the group, it depends on the therapist and the therapy (if it is effective therapy).

A good therapist will investigate confront, provoke and find someone's work points very quickly. For those that don't want to work and didn't realize that is the purpose of therapy - to work on yourself, they are left with that - here is your unresolved problem, no matter how feel, if they want to argue about it, ignore, it it is the point at which they leave off with the therapist either become hooked and decide to come back or decide not to deal with it.

===>
And so, excelsior!
Therapy is pain. Growth is pain
I empathize. You have lost something.
Take some time to grieve, learn/review your lessons, do some nice things to comfort yourself, and then move on.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by SkyBlueCure

A good therapist will investigate confront, provoke and find someone's work points very quickly. For those that don't want to work and didn't realize that is the purpose of therapy - to work on yourself, they are left with that - here is your unresolved problem, no matter how feel, if they want to argue about it, ignore, it it is the point at which they leave off with the therapist either become hooked and decide to come back or decide not to deal with it.

THIS is fantastic. Good words to come back to again and again I think.

Originally Posted by CantExplain

My T said to be gentle with myself over this new knowledge, but I'm not actually in any real danger.
My denial is still in pretty good shape, protecting me from unwanted guilt.

We are talking about consequences that I did not intend and could not have foreseen.

Also, T admitted that if the Horrible Event had not occurred, people wouldn't have left the group and it could have kept going.
The Horrible Event was not my doing, nor was it my job to stop it.

I won the 2009 Pontius Pilate Award for Manual Hygiene.

CE, I think that your T was trying to get you to see that although you were not solely responsible for the decline of the good group, that your actions have consequences and may have CONTRIBUTED to the decline of the group. Although you may not have INTENDED your hate mail and shouting campaign to contribute to the end of the group by draining your T's emotional energies, I think it was certainly foreseeable.

I am not trying to be unsupportive, but I have not a fan of Pontius Pilate, nor have I ever been. I am all about taking responsibility for my own stuff, owning my contribution to a situation and fixing what I can about myself before slamming other people. I really think your T is giving you an opportunity to grow here by telling you what she did. She is owning HER part of it and giving you a chance to see your part of it.

As for T's being used to being yelled at, and us being allowed to yell at them, I actually agree with that. I have yelled at my T. He did not yell back; he calmly accepted it and asked about it. BUT, and it's a giant but, therapists are human. If a person they are seeking to help is constantly angry at them and sending them hate mail, and is completely unwilling to accept any responsibility for such negative, destructive behavior, it makes perfect sense that the therapist's energies would be drained and she might be unwilling to continue with the group.

I think this is a good learning, growing opportunity, if you're willing to step away from the denial thing.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

CE, I think that your T was trying to get you to see that although you were not solely responsible for the decline of the good group, that your actions have consequences and may have CONTRIBUTED to the decline of the group. Although you may not have INTENDED your hate mail and shouting campaign to contribute to the end of the group by draining your T's emotional energies, I think it was certainly foreseeable.

Well I didn't foresee it.

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

I am not trying to be unsupportive, but I have not a fan of Pontius Pilate, nor have I ever been.

Well no. That was in bad taste. I was exaggerating.

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

I am all about taking responsibility for my own stuff, owning my contribution to a situation and fixing what I can about myself before slamming other people. I really think your T is giving you an opportunity to grow here by telling you what she did. She is owning HER part of it and giving you a chance to see your part of it.

I feel challenged by this, but I don't know what to do with that challenge.

I don't see how it helps for her to tell me that now, given that I stopped the hate mail two years ago.

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

As for T's being used to being yelled at, and us being allowed to yell at them, I actually agree with that. I have yelled at my T. He did not yell back; he calmly accepted it and asked about it. BUT, and it's a giant but, therapists are human. If a person they are seeking to help is constantly angry at them and sending them hate mail, and is completely unwilling to accept any responsibility for such negative, destructive behavior, it makes perfect sense that the therapist's energies would be drained and she might be unwilling to continue with the group.

I think this is a good learning, growing opportunity, if you're willing to step away from the denial thing.

OK, so I've learned that my T is not indestructible.

Where do I go from here?
Should I hold back on my anger? I'm pretty sure that's not what she intends.
What, then?

[venusss]

There are healthier ways to express your anger. If you are uberangry, take on martial arts or something. Do not take it out on others. You still can tell them if there is a problem, but do it diplomatically, if you wanna continue the relationship. Since you are still with your T, I suspect that your anger and hatered was not really "reasonable" and well placed. It's something else to say eff you and walk out on person who has been hurting and you wanna sever relationship once and forever.

Human society works on the premise we don't act out of anger... at least we shouldn't. Anger is a genuine emotion, but it's often not constructive in humane communication. One needs to channel it. In healthy way. Discover what is the reason behind it. It's kinda not good to be angry all the time (or a lot of time) and let it rule you.