the trigger warning is for a discussion of childhood abuse.


The title other posting about prices we pay initially kind of got me going. [Triggered me, I guess.] I started a different thread, because this is about a different kind of paying a price: paying an emotional or physical price for being in a relationship with someone.

I have always thought that I pay a price for every relationship I have been in, except the one with my children. That one sort of has a price in that it's all about them and what's best for them, but that's different.

I am not sure I can write this in a way that makes sense. Like there was a price to pay to get my father to love me. That price was putting up with him beating the snot out of me periodically, and having to do whatever it took to keep my mother at least quasi-happy. Because if she wasn't happy, HE was really unhappy. The price of getting my mother to just treat me with tolerance was huge -- beatings, sexualized activity, complete and total deference, not having any feelings she did not have or approve of, having to apologize to her for "making" her beat me, etc., etc. With my older sister too, there was a price always to get her to treat me tolerably, although I still don't talk about that really. Every relationship since then, there has been an emotional or physical price to pay. With my husband, it was about being willing to accept the blame for most things in our life. Now that I am not doing that, we are having huge issues.

This feeling of having to pay a price for someone to be nice to me has gotten better in therapy, but even with my therapist sometimes, I have this panicky, WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME? response sometimes when he's particularly nice. He never seems to want anything but the check for the fee, but I still get that feeling, and a feeling of almost guilt that all I give him in return for his help is that check. Like I *should* be giving him something else.

Anyone else? Do you feel like you're always paying a price for civil treatment from others? Or that you SHOULD be paying a price?

[jenluv]

MKAC -- I totally get this!

Yes, I find myself questioning "why do you like me?" with relationships that "feel" uneven to me. I feel that if the relationship is close enough then the other person will want/need some part of me, of who I am, in order to continue the relationship. For a long time it was sex. (and still is, I guess) What would a guy (or now, my H) want with me unless I gave him my body? That's a fair exchange, right? I mean, would my H still want me to be his wife if I couldn't/wouldn't have sex with him?

But it's not so much what I can do for another person, it's more a matter of what part of myself am I giving away to the other person in order to stay in relationship with them.

[WikidPissah]

yes. too painful to get into the prices I have paid, but you obviously understand that. With T though, I am most often content with paying him the check. That check is a relief to me. I always have it ready. I write it out ahead of time so I can just hand it over. It is like, "here ya go, here's your price" and it helps me to avoid any emotional messiness. Sometimes he will offer me extra sessions, and knowing I am in a financial bind right now he will tell me, no copay. I find that offensive though, and would never accept a freebee. I HAVE TO pay.

I do step back and think "what is your angle" when he says/does something nice. It kind of feels like that is more than what the fee covered.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

Like there was a price to pay to get my father to love me.

Every relationship since then, there has been an emotional or physical price to pay. With my husband, it was about being willing to accept the blame for most things in our life. Now that I am not doing that, we are having huge issues.

This feeling of having to pay a price for someone to be nice to me. . .

Not only can I not, but I do not want to pay for love; for me, that's prostitution, pure and simple, does not matter who the person is or their relationship to me.

With one's therapist, I have a professional business relationship. The people I buy from who do not treat me with kindness and respect means they are not professional. Some I do not expect it from (McDonald's :-) and with others, hopefully I change business partners (doctors, lawyers, accountants, stores with nasty sales clerks, etc.).

For me, kindness and respect were hard to understand until I began to treat myself kindly and respect myself. My T taught me the difference between liking and loving someone (basically when you like someone you want to hang around with them :-) by asking me who I liked and why, giving 3 reasons. I chose my husband because he's "warm, fun, and friendly". She then had me apply those adjectives to my stepmother, whom I loved, and. . . not so much

I think it is okay to love someone and not like them but I want to know the difference, to know who I like and want to be around and be around those people more often. I work on liking myself most of all.

[stopdog]

I think there is always a price or exchange in every human interaction. As a very small child, there was exchange of sex to get attention and kind treatment from a family member. With everyone there is a "one can get x if one does y" exchange. With the therapist, they get paid x amount to sit and do what ever it is they do (I am still not certain they do anything but provide a very high rent space). I do not like it when the therapist seems to offer favors - example - I hate her couch and there are no chairs but the one she sits in. One day there was another chair in the office and she offered to move it - I turned her down - what was the cost of her doing that for me going to be?
I guess I don't see a problem with understanding all human interaction has a price.

Originally Posted by Perna

Not only can I not, but I do not want to pay for love; for me, that's prostitution, pure and simple, does not matter who the person is or their relationship to me.

Yeah, I know I'm a *****. That wasn't really the question.

[stopdog]

I get more concerned when I don't know the price. Or when I think I do but the other person expects a different price than the one I thought we had agreed upon. With the therapist, I just do not accept anything other than what I believe has been bargained for and try not to expect other than that too. I have a great belief in do not accept favors from a therapist because the hidden price may be too great. ( eg. she will expect me to be nice to her, or that if I accept her favor I will quit trying understand or just be submissive or whatever)

[SpiritRunner]

I get this question .... but it's something I need to think about it a little more, I think.
I guess I have always been a little unsure in most of my relationships, if there's an equality in the give and take, like 'am I giving enough', 'what is this person expecting/wanting from me', 'what is their motive in doing this for me; is their motive sincere, done simply in love/care for me'. And .... what is the cost of being loved? Hmmm ..... giving love in return, I'd suppose. And then I think, but I can't seem to give and serve and 'pay the price' like I should. The eternal debate in my mind/heart about selflessness vs selfishness, how much am I giving vs how much should I be giving vs how much am I expected to give vs how much I feel safe giving vs how much I'm taking or feel safe taking ..... sorry if this sounds all mixed-up ......
Yes, with my kids it's a different thing ... I just don't think so much about the cost/price. What they expect/need is simply love and they give it so willingly, too, that my heart is touched with the need and the desire to give without counting the cost so much, as I would otherwise, because the reward is clearly greater than the cost in this relationship - it's a purer, simpler relationship with deeper bonds than I have in any other relationship.

[eskielover]

I think that only those who have been abused have that feeling......I was never abused.....there was never any price......all love & caring was completely unconditional. My parents weren't great....but the one thing they did teach me was that love in family is unconditional....there may be disagreements & even verbal fighting about the things we disagree on.....but love in a truly functional family is unconditional.

Sorry that all of you haven't experienced that wonderful feeling.....I really didn't want any children.....but I ended up having our daughter a couple of years after we were married (I wanted a career)......but just because I didn't want to have a child....didn't mean that my love & care for her wasnt unconditional.....just as my parents love for me was.

Unconditional love is what all love is meant to be....if it's anything else....it's not real love

[noodle_82]

For me there's a price to pay for every relationship I have and I am now broke. Emotionally anyway. Although T is costing me financially too. I think that's why Im ok with T not being as "nice" as a lot of other Ts seem to be on here. If he was it would only cost me more in the long run and I would have to bail myself out. And that goes the same in real life. People take what they want then p*** off and leave.

[stopdog]

I suppose it helps me that I almost never experience the therapist as being nice. At times I can tell there may be an attempt at appearing nice, but I can usually thwart it. At least once there was an exchange where she told me she had been about to say something nice to me but stopped because I had been sarcastic. I was all like "whahoo - sarcasm works" - which is not the response she seemed to expect.
For me it is not bad as long as the cost is known. With my mother, it seemed like to get her to like me or whatever would cost me myself - a price I was unwilling to pay. She would tell me others would not like me because I was not X enough. For me X enough was too high a price to pay to be liked and so I am prepared to be disliked by others because I am not X enough ever. As a 4-5 year old, sex with family member to get to hang around him did not seem too high a price to pay.
Favors or niceness from the therapist seems more like my mother's X enough to me.

Sorry - I keep stream of concious posting on your thread.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I suppose it helps me that I almost never experience the therapist as being nice. At times I can tell there may be an attempt at appearing nice, but I can usually thwart it. At least once there was an exchange where she told me she had been about to say something nice to me but stopped because I had been sarcastic. I was all like "whahoo - sarcasm works" - which is not the response she seemed to expect.
For me it is not bad as long as the cost is known. With my mother, it seemed like to get her to like me or whatever would cost me myself - a price I was unwilling to pay. She would tell me others would not like me because I was not X enough. For me X enough was too high a price to pay to be liked and so I am prepared to be disliked by others because I am not X enough ever. As a 4-5 year old, sex with family member to get to hang around him did not seem too high a price to pay.
Favors or niceness from the therapist seems more like my mother's X enough to me.

Sorry - I keep stream of concious posting on your thread.

Don't be sorry. It helps me that you and a few other people get it. I think that not knowing the cost or worry that the cost of the relationship will be something unanticipated is what causes my WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME response to certain people. I don't even know why I have that anxiety with my therapist because he has been clear that he doesn't want anything from me except for me to get better. Shoot, he's been clear that I cannot give him stuff I want to give him that he might actually want also because there are rules against that kind of thing. So why do I have anxiety?

I know the cost of having my mother even pretend like she loves me and I am no longer willing to pay. For quite a while, her mental health issues abated and she was able to have a relationship with me that didn't involve the old prices, but after my sister moved in with her, she seemed to relapse. It has been hard to adjust to the fact that things have gone back to the way they were when I was growing up and realize again that she does not really love me or even really see me.

Thanks for posting stopdog, and don't feel like you need to stop.

[elliemay]

I think the difference between the relationships you describe, and the relationships that are healthy is that you are willing to pay the price.

I agree with stopdog, there is a price for every single relationship we have. Love is not about never getting hurt, or having some always meeting your emotional needs. In fact, just the opposite perhaps. Love is accepting inevitable hurt, and being willing to do it anyway. Love is about moments of receiving, not perpetual taking.

Think of the relationship with your children and how you feel in it. You give up a lot to be a mother. But you are willing to do it. AND you get more than enough in return - you get those astounding moments.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

Yeah, I know I'm a *****. That wasn't really the question.

I don't get this.

Originally Posted by elliemay

I don't get this.

It was in reference to Perna's comment about being a prostitute when you pay for relationships. Because that is exactly what I said I had done before, it seemed like a comment on me being a prostitute by trying to buy my parents' love, etc, hence the ***** the comment. Maybe me just being too pissy today. And getting called a ***** over and over growing up. Being used for someone else's sexual gratification and called a ***** when you wanted affection messes with a person's head. I don't know.

[noodle_82]

regretted what i said- tmi

[stopdog]

Doing what one needs to do to survive growing up does not make one a *****.
Also, there is an exchange in every interaction - even if it is I enjoy how I feel when I am with you - each person gets something. That does not make one a *****.

Finally, the whole ***** thing irritates me as a feminist - it is a male construct to denigrate women who are providing something the man wants. There is no equally derogatory word for male prostitutes. Women who do what they can to survive and often provide for others, is not a shameful thing. (MKAC - you are not a *****, just a tangent on my part)

[WikidPissah]

I don't think perna meant it that way. I will let her defend herself, but wanted to give her the benefit of doubt. You are definitely not a ***** MKAC.

This thread got me examining things. I realized that I won't take anything from T. Poor guy always places a water on the table besides me and I won't touch it. I got teary once and he handed me a tissue box...I grabbed the tissues from inside my purse instead. Crap, it is all making sense.

[pbutton]

Originally Posted by WikidPissah

This thread got me examining things. I realized that I won't take anything from T. Poor guy always places a water on the table besides me and I won't touch it. I got teary once and he handed me a tissue box...I grabbed the tissues from inside my purse instead. Crap, it is all making sense.

I'm having trouble understanding this thread, but I SO totally get this.

MKAC, you are not a *****. Not even remotely close.

[eskielover]

It is so sad when people aren't treated with unconditional love....which is what true love is......but I think that all too often that love that comes with a price is what leads to our poor skills we develop to deal with something that isn't the way it's created to be......& it's even worse when that love for a price continues into later years.....but when one learnes it to be that way when they are young, it's what one expects it to look like later on in life also......rather than not being willing to hold out for the unconditional love that is truly what marriage is to be based on.....all too often we either don't know anything else or we are willing to settle.

completely and totally get it♥♥♥

Yes, there's always a price and I hate it when it isn't clear what that price is going to be. I need to know the price up front or I won't play.
Now the price to "have" a mother is going along with her delusion that I don't exist. I never felt I existed, anyway, so it's little cost.
I'm sorry...I sounded cold and I only meant that toward me. It hurts to always wonder when the other shoe will drop, doesn't it? I'm sorry you need to question the price we pay.

[confuseduk]

I totally get this, I'm sorry so many other people feel the same way

[greenvalley]

No, no no no!

The fee is for the therapists time and skills. The fee does not buy the therapists heart. The therapist retains her/his heart unless she/he decides to gift it to you free of charge.

There is such a thing as gifts. It is completely understandable to get confused about this because too many "gifts" come with strings attached. Just because some of the gifts you have received came with strings attached does not make all gifts the same. I have been thinking that the greatest gift we can give to another person is our presence combined with that natural human desire scientists label "tend/befriend". Has your therapist ever had one moment where they cared about you? If so then they have given you a gift. Also it is such a basic gift that empowers both parties in the giving.

[stopdog]

Even gift giving has a benefit to the giver. It is not bad or wrong, just that there is a benefit on both sides. The beneficiary receives the gift as the benefit (assuming it is a gift the receiver wants or needs) and the giver receives the benefit of feeling good for giving or some such thing. For an example - If the intended recipient does not want the gift, the giver often feels rejected or bad or whatever = too high a price to pay for me personally. I do not want to accept gifts I do not want in order for the giver to not get pissed or hurt or whatever. I would prefer they not be offered.