[rainbow8]

I was taking a walk earlier, feeling good about my relationship with my T. I was thinking "it's not about her AND we have a close relationship." The two can exist simultaneously. Then, whammo, I thought how nice she is, and how well we get along, then I suddenly thought "But she won't tell me anything about her H". I burst out crying and there went my good mood.

If I were a T I think I'd talk about my family to my clients. I'm not a very private person. But I have to respect that, as open and genuine as my T is, and as much as she does not seem particularly private (she answered questions about her likes and dislikes, and sometimes talks about her kids, though not much) she doesn't want to talk about her H. It makes me angry but I have to accept it. Like not being more special than her other clients. Like knowing I'm her job though she likes me very much.

I am trying to use DBT skills and just observe what happened. I was fine, then my thoughts and feelings made me sad. I cried because my T is my T and not my friend. She doesn't have to answer any questions about her life. She's still the same sweet T who cares about me very much.

I feel left out. Those aren't new feelings. T shuts me out, not maliciously, but because it's her RIGHT to. I don't know where that comes from, in my past. My immediate response was and is, to cry. It's not about her or her H, but about me. It's still okay for me to cry about it, as I'm doing now.

[Brightheart]

I also have a high need for intimacy and closeness, Rainbow, and will feel hurt at times when a person that I care about puts up a boundary. It's okay to feel angry and hurt. All relationships have boundaries. The other person is respecting and taking care of themselves, and ultimately...even though it can be difficult...that is what we want for people that we care about. T is teaching you how to practice healthy self-care. Is there a part of you who can reach out to your hurt part and offer her some gentle care now?

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Brightheart

I also have a high need for intimacy and closeness, Rainbow, and will feel hurt at times when a person that I care about puts up a boundary. It's okay to feel angry and hurt. All relationships have boundaries. The other person is respecting and taking care of themselves, and ultimately...even though it can be difficult...that is what we want for people that we care about. T is teaching you how to practice healthy self-care. Is there a part of you who can reach out to your hurt part and offer her some gentle care now?

I want to read over what you posted, over and over, Brightheart. It's true. My T is taking care of herself. Maybe I don't have enough boundaries; I tell people too much. Maybe I can learn from her. But when I think about it I just cry. I will try to find a part who can take care of my hurt part. I think she must be a child, the hurt part. My T would say to hold her. Or ask, what does she want from me, first. She wants to be included, not shut out. I won't EVER leave her out!!!

[rainbow8]

I don't understand boundaries very well.

[ECHOES]

I think boundaries are easier to understand if they are looked at from a perspective of separateness.

My T rarely if ever tells me anything about her Husband. That is a boundary that HE has set up for her. He wants his own privacy. I know where he works and something that happened to him last year and thats about all. She would share more i think, but he doesnt want her too. Perhaps your t's husband is the same. But why does it matter to you so much what she does or doesnt say about her husband? Why is it such an issue?

[autotelica]

Have your boundaries ever been breached before?

I'm the complete opposite of you, I think I'm very private in real life. People don't know ANYTHING about me, much to their frustration. I was telling my therapist yesterday that I don't even like when I become a "regular" at eating establishments because then waitstaff start anticipating what I want. They start thinking they know me, which then leads to them trying to be friendly/nice to me, and I just don't want that. I'm too engrossed in my own inner world to want to "dance" with them.

So I respect boundaries a great deal and can't imagine being any other way. Reading about your struggles has been eye-opening. I think it is good that you have a therapist who is firm in her boundaries because this makes her a good role model for you. My therapist has much looser boundaries than I do, and I'm learning from her that it's okay to be a little less guarded.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I feel left out. T shuts me out...

Who else has shut you out?

[skysblue]

I'm wondering if it's just about T's H? What if she DID tell you more about him? Would that be enough? Would you then want to know about her brothers and sisters? Her parents? Her cousins? Her best friend? Her classmates in college?

Is her husband just symbolic of the fact that you and T can never be friends in the way you want?

I think she's doing a great job by keeping up boundaries. How would you really feel if you saw that she was loose with other people's private lives? Would you like her to be that way? Would you admire someone who casually broke other people's boundaries? Sharing info about her H WOULD be crossing his boundary. Would she seem like a very trustworthy person then?

You say T shuts you out. Would you like your sessions to be her sharing every facet of her life? Would all that knowledge be enough for you? And how would it feel when you discover she's just as imperfect as the rest of us? How would it be if you discovered that she suffers from anxiety or depression? Would that change your opinion of her? Would she no longer be the person you so desperately want to be close to?

Right now she presents as an ideal. She's ideal in that she gives you all of her attention. That's what's so great about the therapist/client relationship. We get all the focus and that feels good AND since they're trained helpers in the realm of our emotions, it feels doubly good.

Rainbow, so sorry that you have to face such tough emotions. And I know that logical thinking does not solve the issues. But, I think, the more we allow logic to be part of the equation, the more our emotions may come into line.

My T told me today that we have 2 spheres of relating - with the emotional brain and the rational brain. The two need to work in tandem. We cannot lead healthy lives if we work predominantly from one arena or the other. Where those 2 circles intersect is called the 'wise mind' and that's where we strive to live.

I wish you luck in finding that place as I wish for all of us.

I think it's part of trusting your T. She made this decision to not talk about her husband for a reason, and it has to be accepted. It's not about shutting you out, it's about keeping his information protected. This part really isn't about you, but about her, about him.

There is also the knowledge that there's been a lot of transference and intense feelings towards T. So if she starts talking about H, what does that open? Then it becomes all about T and T's life. And if she talks about H, even something positive ("My H bought me flowers today") then it runs the risk of "HER H buys her flowers, my H can't do that, or I want to do that for T but she won't let me, etc".

I have to think right now it feels so "messy" with T, and such big, big feelings to get worked out. She's protecting her H, but maybe you too? From opening that door of it being more about her, her husband, her life, what she has, etc?

[Shiny Things]

Hi Rainbow. I am glad to hear you know it's ok to cry. Intense feelings need an outlet. You were enjoying your walk, thinking nice thoughts about how genuine and great T is, sounds lovely.

Then your thoughts changed, then your mood changed. But do you see, nothing (no rupture, termination etc) NOTHING had changed with your T during your walk.

So put your tennies on and go for another walk. Go with the intention of remembering all of the wonderful wise ways your T is there for you. Your T sounds really smart.

[stopdog]

I don't talk about all sorts of things with others even when they tell me all the same things I would not tell them. I would not think her not telling you is personal.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

I think boundaries are easier to understand if they are looked at from a perspective of separateness.

You mean that T is a separate person from me, so she can choose to be private or not? Or do you mean something different?

Originally Posted by SarahMichelle

My T rarely if ever tells me anything about her Husband. That is a boundary that HE has set up for her. He wants his own privacy. I know where he works and something that happened to him last year and thats about all. She would share more i think, but he doesnt want her too. Perhaps your t's husband is the same. But why does it matter to you so much what she does or doesnt say about her husband? Why is it such an issue?

I think it's been an issue ever since I once asked her if she could tell me anything about her H. She asked what did I want to know. At least I think she asked that, though now I'm not sure. I asked if he liked to travel too, and she said "yes". She's told me things about her kids, so it just really bothers me that she doesn't volunteer anything about him. It's not like her because she's not so private about anything else. After I looked at FB again, and was so angry, I said he seemed so different from her. (from his likes on FB) She said, "your H is different from you, isn't he?" Then I said, but you won't talk about him, and she said "no, I won't". Not her exact words, maybe she just said "no", and that's what got me so angry. I can't really explain it, but for some reason it's a huge trigger for me. I know I shouldn't have looked on FB and saw that he has so many friends, and saw how he looks, but I did. I won't do it again! I did comment on his looks once, and she said something back to me. So maybe it's not even that she won't answer questions. I don't know! Maybe she will. I have a feeling I have to bring this up with her again because it makes me feel so bad, still! I mean I have to talk about why it bothers me so much.

Originally Posted by autotelica

Have your boundaries ever been breached before?

I'm the complete opposite of you, I think I'm very private in real life. People don't know ANYTHING about me, much to their frustration. I was telling my therapist yesterday that I don't even like when I become a "regular" at eating establishments because then waitstaff start anticipating what I want. They start thinking they know me, which then leads to them trying to be friendly/nice to me, and I just don't want that. I'm too engrossed in my own inner world to want to "dance" with them.

So I respect boundaries a great deal and can't imagine being any other way. Reading about your struggles has been eye-opening. I think it is good that you have a therapist who is firm in her boundaries because this makes her a good role model for you. My therapist has much looser boundaries than I do, and I'm learning from her that it's okay to be a little less guarded.

I don't know if my boundaries have ever been breached. I'm not sure what that would look like.

Originally Posted by Sannah

Who else has shut you out?

As usual, I can't think of an answer. All I ever remember is crying when we used to see family movies of my brother before I was born. I was in plenty of them, but the ones without me made me cry. Also, kids in elementary school passing notes but leaving me out. I don't those are major enough for my reaction.

Originally Posted by skysblue

I'm wondering if it's just about T's H? What if she DID tell you more about him? Would that be enough? Would you then want to know about her brothers and sisters? Her parents? Her cousins? Her best friend? Her classmates in college?
I DO know something about her siblings; she told me. I also know a few things about her parents; she also told me. Well, yes I would like to know more about her family.
Is her husband just symbolic of the fact that you and T can never be friends in the way you want?
Probably you're right. If we were friends, she would tell me, or I would know. I don't understand why she has disclosed about her kids and siblings, but not her husband.
I think she's doing a great job by keeping up boundaries. How would you really feel if you saw that she was loose with other people's private lives? Would you like her to be that way? Would you admire someone who casually broke other people's boundaries? Sharing info about her H WOULD be crossing his boundary. Would she seem like a very trustworthy person then? I don't know if it's her H's boundary or hers. If her H doesn't want her talking about him, I agree she wouldn't be trustworthy if she did it anyway. I have a feeling it's HER choice, though. I know I have to accept it but right now I wish I could talk to her about it again, not to get a different response, but to figure out why it bothers me so much. No, I wouldn't want her to break people's boundaries.

You say T shuts you out. Would you like your sessions to be her sharing every facet of her life? Would all that knowledge be enough for you? And how would it feel when you discover she's just as imperfect as the rest of us? How would it be if you discovered that she suffers from anxiety or depression? Would that change your opinion of her? Would she no longer be the person you so desperately want to be close to?
I already know she's imperfect and it wouldn't matter if I found out she suffers from anything. I'd like her just the same, or maybe even more.
Right now she presents as an ideal. She's ideal in that she gives you all of her attention. That's what's so great about the therapist/client relationship. We get all the focus and that feels good AND since they're trained helpers in the realm of our emotions, it feels doubly good.

Rainbow, so sorry that you have to face such tough emotions. And I know that logical thinking does not solve the issues. But, I think, the more we allow logic to be part of the equation, the more our emotions may come into line.

My T told me today that we have 2 spheres of relating - with the emotional brain and the rational brain. The two need to work in tandem. We cannot lead healthy lives if we work predominantly from one arena or the other. Where those 2 circles intersect is called the 'wise mind' and that's where we strive to live.
That's part of DBT except they list 5 different spheres, not just 2. I'm sure it will help me to be in wise mind. We haven't gotten that far in the course yet.
I wish you luck in finding that place as I wish for all of us.

Originally Posted by stormyangels

I think it's part of trusting your T. She made this decision to not talk about her husband for a reason, and it has to be accepted. It's not about shutting you out, it's about keeping his information protected. This part really isn't about you, but about her, about him.
I can see that logically, but something gets triggered in me anyway.
There is also the knowledge that there's been a lot of transference and intense feelings towards T. So if she starts talking about H, what does that open? Then it becomes all about T and T's life. And if she talks about H, even something positive ("My H bought me flowers today") then it runs the risk of "HER H buys her flowers, my H can't do that, or I want to do that for T but she won't let me, etc".
I know. I don't know what exactly I wish I could know. I don't like that I know a lot about T but her H is a stranger.
I have to think right now it feels so "messy" with T, and such big, big feelings to get worked out. She's protecting her H, but maybe you too? From opening that door of it being more about her, her husband, her life, what she has, etc?

I know it's part of my problem of it being "not about her". It's hard for me to feel so close to someone yet that person having "secrets" from me. I know it's a professional relationship but it doesn't feel that way to me.

Originally Posted by Shiny Things

Hi Rainbow. I am glad to hear you know it's ok to cry. Intense feelings need an outlet. You were enjoying your walk, thinking nice thoughts about how genuine and great T is, sounds lovely.

Then your thoughts changed, then your mood changed. But do you see, nothing (no rupture, termination etc) NOTHING had changed with your T during your walk.

So put your tennies on and go for another walk. Go with the intention of remembering all of the wonderful wise ways your T is there for you. Your T sounds really smart.

That's very good advice, Shiny Things. I'll try it! Thanks.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I don't talk about all sorts of things with others even when they tell me all the same things I would not tell them. I would not think her not telling you is personal.

I know it's not personal, but it makes me feel hurt just the same.

[autotelica]

You've never met someone who was too intrusive/invasive? Who didn't seem to care or sense that you wanted to be left alone, or took it personally when you expressed your desire for space? Have you were befriended someone who wouldn't dare tell a secret to because you know they would be blab?

Rainbow, yes sitting with the feelings of not always getting what we want as we want it is hard. It's not about what a T will or will not talk to us about, it's about what we benefit from having a T that can stick to what is appropriate for her and also understanding how that feels for you without punishing or denying that. It really does make us stronger, and that is the gift of therapy.

[Sannah]

Yeah, discussing with T about why this makes you so angry and why it is so triggering would be a good idea Rainbow.

[Chopin99]

Rainbow, I don't know if you ever talked to your T about the book I recommended, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, but I really think you should read it. So far, it has taught me so much about boundaries. I know your faith differs from mine, but seriously, you can "read around it" in this book. It is SO good and easy to understand!

I think it's hard for you to understand boundaries because you probably don't have any for yourself. I didn't. I've finally set some in my life and it's helped me.

[Dreamy01]

I wonder if this comes down to distrust as much as anything else.

You were thinking how great T is because she says/does certain things.

Then your mind jumped in with 'but hang on, she's not so good because she doesn't say/do this.'

Then you started to feel miserable about the relationship.

I recognise this pattern too.

The truth is, no relationship is perfect and the t relationship is one on its own, so there's nothing to compare it to. I think this is about trusting it for what it is.

T has made a decision not to talk about certain things. That is the nature of the relationship. If she talked to you about her private life she wouldn't be a very good t! It's not a rejection of you, if anything it shows she is protecting you. She knows that withholding information about herself means the focus remains on you. And that is the nature of the t relationship. It's how it should be.

Your thoughts may well intercept with criticisms when you try to feel good about something but try to catch this when it happens and remind yourself that what you felt good about just a minute ago still exists. If you find yourself believing a negative thought that makes you cry or feel angry or depressed, ask yourself whether your emotion is really justified. Is it that T doesn't care, or is she simply doing what a T should do? I bet you'll find it's the latter. If this is hard to believe, remind yourself of all the times that T has shown she does care about you. So that's evidence that she does. Anything else is the nature of the t relationship, which is to benefit you if even that doesn't seem the case now.

[Luce]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I don't know if my boundaries have ever been breached. I'm not sure what that would look like.

I know it's not personal, but it makes me feel hurt just the same.

I find your statement about boundaries above very curious, Rainbow. Personally I am very aware when someone breaches my boundaries, whether that be by stepping into my personal space uninvited or being instrusive on an emotional level. I wonder if this lack of awareness of personal boundaries might have something to do with the way your mom parented you - you have told us many times that she was involved in everything you did, wanted to know everything, and was 'always there', etc. I had the impression from your descriptions of your mom's relationship with you that she didn't respect your boundaries and was rather 'enmeshed' with you.

I wonder then if that is related to you shutting *her* out. Remember how you often didn't want to tell her things - sometimes even about important things like injuries! And wasn't there a time when you were selectively mute and didn't talk at all? Could those things perhaps be your way of setting up your own boundary between yourself and others, kind of like saying "I am not going to let you into my space"?

Does any of this relate to who you want to know everything about your T, and *you* feel when she sets a boundary and doesn't want to share?

[Luce]

Do you have any thoughts about the above, Rainbow?

[Butterflies Are Free]

You could always put yourself in her husband's shoes; if your husband was a therapist, would you want him talking to his clients about you?
Just a thought...

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by earthmamma

Rainbow, yes sitting with the feelings of not always getting what we want as we want it is hard. It's not about what a T will or will not talk to us about, it's about what we benefit from having a T that can stick to what is appropriate for her and also understanding how that feels for you without punishing or denying that. It really does make us stronger, and that is the gift of therapy.

I agree, and that's why I want to discuss again with her how it makes me feel.

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Rainbow, I don't know if you ever talked to your T about the book I recommended, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, but I really think you should read it. So far, it has taught me so much about boundaries. I know your faith differs from mine, but seriously, you can "read around it" in this book. It is SO good and easy to understand!

I think it's hard for you to understand boundaries because you probably don't have any for yourself. I didn't. I've finally set some in my life and it's helped me.

I haven't looked for that book yet but I will. Thanks again for reminding me. I haven't asked T if she read it but I plan to discuss boundaries with her at my next session, I think.

Originally Posted by Dreamy01

I wonder if this comes down to distrust as much as anything else.

You were thinking how great T is because she says/does certain things.

Then your mind jumped in with 'but hang on, she's not so good because she doesn't say/do this.'

Then you started to feel miserable about the relationship.

I recognise this pattern too.

The truth is, no relationship is perfect and the t relationship is one on its own, so there's nothing to compare it to. I think this is about trusting it for what it is.

T has made a decision not to talk about certain things. That is the nature of the relationship. If she talked to you about her private life she wouldn't be a very good t! It's not a rejection of you, if anything it shows she is protecting you. She knows that withholding information about herself means the focus remains on you. And that is the nature of the t relationship. It's how it should be.

Your thoughts may well intercept with criticisms when you try to feel good about something but try to catch this when it happens and remind yourself that what you felt good about just a minute ago still exists. If you find yourself believing a negative thought that makes you cry or feel angry or depressed, ask yourself whether your emotion is really justified. Is it that T doesn't care, or is she simply doing what a T should do? I bet you'll find it's the latter. If this is hard to believe, remind yourself of all the times that T has shown she does care about you. So that's evidence that she does. Anything else is the nature of the t relationship, which is to benefit you if even that doesn't seem the case now.

Thanks, dreamy. I have to agree that my T is acting in my best interests yet even reading these posts again makes me feel sad and depressed. I think my reaction goes very deep and is at the core of my problems but I can't quite get to it or accept what the problem is. I feel like I'm covering up the hurt with a band-aid to protect myself.

Originally Posted by Luce

I find your statement about boundaries above very curious, Rainbow. Personally I am very aware when someone breaches my boundaries, whether that be by stepping into my personal space uninvited or being instrusive on an emotional level. I wonder if this lack of awareness of personal boundaries might have something to do with the way your mom parented you - you have told us many times that she was involved in everything you did, wanted to know everything, and was 'always there', etc. I had the impression from your descriptions of your mom's relationship with you that she didn't respect your boundaries and was rather 'enmeshed' with you.
I didn't realize that she didn't respect my boundaries. After all, it's the way I grew up.
I wonder then if that is related to you shutting *her* out. Remember how you often didn't want to tell her things - sometimes even about important things like injuries! And wasn't there a time when you were selectively mute and didn't talk at all? Could those things perhaps be your way of setting up your own boundary between yourself and others, kind of like saying "I am not going to let you into my space"?
I always spoke to my Mom and Dad and brother but not to other relatives. SM is in the social anxiety spectrum. I wanted to talk but couldn't. It is true that as an adult I felt my Mom pestered me too much about things and I got annoyed, so if that was crossing my boundaries, I didn't like it.
Does any of this relate to who you want to know everything about your T, and *you* feel when she sets a boundary and doesn't want to share?

I don't know if it relates! I just know that it's true that I want to know more about my T and I hate that she doesn't want to share. It's not like she's my accountant or gynecologist; she herself says we have a relationship. I understand her rights but it triggers me. I've got to discuss it more with her, as it relates to ME, not her. I understand that part of it now, at least. What's important is why it bothers me so much, the not knowing. I can be curious about it with her.

Originally Posted by Butterflies Are Free

You could always put yourself in her husband's shoes; if your husband was a therapist, would you want him talking to his clients about you?
Just a thought...

If my H were a T, and someone like me wanted to know something about me, I would tell him it was all right to tell. Maybe I would tell him what NOT to say, but it would okay to tell the client what my hobbies were, or something about me. I wouldn't think it would be intrusive.