[scorpiosis37]

Following up on my previous thread "Lost Connection with T," I had my session today. After saying how much I've appreciated her help over the last 3 years, I told her that, lately, I've been feeling less connected to her than I usually do, that I didn't feel as "heard" as I usually do, and that I feel "stuck" and don't know how to proceed. To give her a specific example, I brought up how, last week, she made 3 separate comments about how she thought I felt "isolated" and, each time, I had to tell her "no, I don't feel that way." I told her that she is usually on the mark, but just the last 2 sessions, I felt differently. I told her I wanted that connection back and I want to get back on track with our therapy. I thought I was doing a good job by being honest and putting the issue on the table.

Well, it didn't go well. Her response felt very superficial. She said that she didn't remember making the comment more than once, and couldn't really recall what she had said. I told her exactly what she had said, and she said "yeah, I don't really remember that, but I'm sorry if I said that." She said that asking the same question 3 times "didn't really sound like her," so she's not sure what happened. She said she was sorry if that bothered me. It didn't feel like she was really addressing the issue. She brushed it off pretty quickly, and tried to change the subject. We talked about something else for a minute or two, and then that conversation just kind of fizzled. Then, there was a long, awkward silence. I told her that I felt frustrated, and that it bothered me that were having trouble communicating; it was never an issue before. She seemed like she kind of gave up, too. She wasn't asking me questions or trying to get to the root of the problem. It felt like she was just waiting for me to come up with another topic to discuss, but I didn't want to discuss other issues and leave the elephant in the room.

After awhile, I just said, well, there are other things I'm frustrated with right now, too. I told her about a friend who asks for emotional support a lot, says she's just broke up with her girlfriend, cries for an hour, and then, 2 days later, gets back with her girlfriend and then asks me to come over to hang out with both of them like it's all rainbows and sunshine. This happens about once a month, and it's emotionally exhausting. I've talked to T about this friend before, and it is something that bothers me a bit, but it wasn't my source of frustration in the moment. It is another instance of frustration, but really, I'm much more frustrated by the fact that T wasn't willing to "go deep" and talk about our therapy relationship and how I was not feeling heard by her. In fact, after hearing a little about my friend, T said "well, at least we're okay, right?" I was kind of shocked she said that because I did NOT think we were alright. I basically said "well, I'm glad we talked about it a little, but I'm still not feeling connected. I don't really know what to say or do or to work on that. What do you think?" She again offered nothing. She also didn't share if SHE felt less connected to me, or if SHE felt frustrated by our impasse. My experience was that she was kind of closed off, too.

We always end our sessions with a hug, but last week, I walked out without giving her a hug. I didn't feel like it. I was wondering if she was going to bring it up today, but she didn't (and I didn't either; it slipped my mind until the end). So, today, I again got up to walk out and she kind of gestured like she was ready to hug me, but I just walked out without giving her a hug again. That's really not like me. But I'm frustrated with her, and I don't want to hug her. I can bring that up next session, but I don't know that it will be any more productive than our session today.

Her way of trying to solve the impasse was to get me to find something from my childhood to work on, but I'm not having any issues connected to my childhood right now. I already talked about my FOO to death, brought my dad to a session, etc. I'm sure that my FOO stuff might get triggered again by something in the future but, right now, there is nothing to work on. Right now, my issue is in the present, and if I don't feel secure in my relationship with T, I'm not going to be able to do any good work.

Sigh. Not sure what to do now. Maybe I'll write her something, but I don't know what. I would NOT want to show her this post. If I wrote something, it would be much more gentle and pointed. I would have to find a way to approach her that she would really HEAR because she is not hearing me right now...

[mixedup_emotions]

I can definitely understand the frustration that comes from wanting to address something real and present between you and T - and having T try to connect it to something else, taking the focus off of what's really occurring in the moment. I went through something similar with my T but ended up just backing off from it because of how badly things went after it escalated.

I hope you're able to find a way to address it where you are really heard and that your T can be open to working through it with you.

[rainbow8]

I can tell how frustrated you are by your session, and I'm sorry. I'd be frustrated too, if that's how my T responded to my concerns and feelings. One thing I've noticed in my therapy, so it's probably common, is that often I remember details about my session and things my T said, that were important, at least to me. But when I bring them up, she doesn't remember! It's frustrating but the truth is that our Ts don't remember everything they said or everything we said!!

I hate it when I want to talk about something but I can tell my T wants to go in another direction. It's OUR therapy, so we should be able to direct it the way we want to.

I wish you could have been able to stick with your concerns about your relationship even though your T didn't want to "go there." She must really believe that "you and she are okay" when she said it. I can picture how hard it would have been to get up and shout "NO WE'RE NOT OKAY!" That's what I would have said if I were hiding in the room with you as a pocket rider! At least that's what I would have LIKED to say.

Maybe you can email her that thought, that you and she are NOT okay and you need to discuss it more. Maybe you're being too gentle with your T when you say you can't show her this post. It sounds to me like you need to be stronger and more direct with her in order for this to get resolved. I'm sorry you felt unheard today.

[unaluna]

Well - and i think this is what my t is teaching me - put the shoe on the other foot. You are being a bit self righteous. Why do things have to be perfect? Go back and read tinyrabits postinthe other thread, I think she got it right.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by hankster

Well - and i think this is what my t is teaching me - put the shoe on the other foot. You are being a bit self righteous. Why do things have to be perfect? Go back and read tinyrabits postinthe other thread, I think she got it right.

Like I said in my other thread, I never expected or wanted T to be perfect. I only wanted her to be open to discussing this issue with me. I wanted her to allow the conversation and talk it through with me. I wanted to work with my feelings, rather than have her change the subject. How is that being self-righteous? I didn't accuse her of anything, tell her she did anything wrong, or ask her to do anything different. I only used "I feel" statements and tried to express to her how I was feeling. I said I wanted to talk about this issue, rather than avoid it. I don't see there is anything wrong with my approach?

I also just sent my T an e-mail (my 3rd e-mail ever!) explaining how I felt after our session today, and asking that we talk about it in more detail next week.

[ultramar]

Ouch, Hankster, that's just gratuitous.

Scorpiosis, I admire how you're trying to work this out. You're able to take responsibility for your feelings, and feel frustration towards your therapist at the same time, this isn't always easy.

I'm wondering if she just recently moved in with this guy? I ask because maybe she's distracted and off her game, her life sounds rather tumultuous and having huge relationship issues at the moment she may be projecting relationship issues on to you (though of a different kind).

I don't know what to suggest except to continue to communicate with her that you are not feelings heard, and continue to look into the role you may play in the impasse where you find yourself now (if any). Keep exploring, keep talking to her, hopefully you can find your way through this, even if the relationship does end up changing somewhat (hopefully, ultimately not for the worse).

[unaluna]

I'm saying it because I know the perfect self righteous stance. My mother was always, is this guy special?? No - I finally realized there are no special people. Nothing is going to be perfect. Your t can help you even if she has a different moral compass, which you can't really judge from the info you have. But it doesn't affect her knowledge of psychology. it's not like she's a serial killer.

I didn't mean to sound harsh. I think your t isn't feeling like a respected partner here. Where that's coming from, is it countertransference, idk. You sound like you want answers NOW. I'm just wondering what that is about. I don't think it's obvious.

ETA: but thank you for letting me know that didn't sound nice. The "sound effects" or tone aren't usually there for me until a couple of days later, and then I'm like wtf who is that ***** - oh its me oopsie.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by ultramar

I'm wondering if she just recently moved in with this guy? I ask because maybe she's distracted and off her game, her life sounds rather tumultuous and having huge relationship issues at the moment she may be projecting relationship issues on to you (though of a different kind).[/SIZE][/FONT]

I don't know what to suggest except to continue to communicate with her that you are not feelings heard, and continue to look into the role you may play in the impasse where you find yourself now (if any). Keep exploring, keep talking to her, hopefully you can find your way through this, even if the relationship does end up changing somewhat (hopefully, ultimately not for the worse).

Yes, she did just move in with her new partner (a woman). She mentioned that her children are having to get used to the idea of their parents' divorce AND their mom's new female partner (who used to be "mom and dad's friend)." I think her life is very much in transition right now, and I think her distraction has less to do with me and more to do with her. She's also made comparisons before between me and her oldest daughter, and I think it's possible that the tension she's having with her daughter right now may be coming out between me and her in session (i.e. her own transference).

Yes, in my e-mail to her, I said that I felt frustrated and, as a result, I realized I was putting up a wall. It wasn't intentional, but I took responsibility for the fact that I was closed-off today. I said that I wasn't feeling heard and, instead of speaking up and insisting we address it, I just kind of closed off and was unproductive for the rest of the session.

Honestly, writing the e-mail to her and explaining how I felt has made me feel a lot better. A lot of my frustration was coming from the fact that she kept cutting me off in session, and left me unable to really express what was bothering me. I was upset that she wasn't willing to go there and really address it. Writing the e-mail allowed me to tell her how I felt without interruption, and get it all out in the open. She probably won't respond until session next week, but it's not the response that I'm really interested in. The most important part was just letting her know how I felt and why.

[CantExplain]

Tacking "if" onto "sorry" really destroys the whole apology.
It means they are not accepting responsibility.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by hankster

I'm saying it because I know the perfect self righteous stance. My mother was always, is this guy special?? No - I finally realized there are no special people. Nothing is going to be perfect. Your t can help you even if she has a different moral compass, which you can't really judge from the info you have. But it doesn't affect her knowledge of psychology. it's not like she's a serial killer.

I didn't mean to sound harsh. I think your t isn't feeling like a respected partner here. Where that's coming from, is it countertransference, idk. You sound like you want answers NOW. I'm just wondering what that is about. I don't think it's obvious.

Whoa. I really don't think that this about me and my T. I don't know why you feel strongly that I'm trying to get my T to be "perfect," but that just isn't the case. Even my T would agree this isn't the case. She's said to me many times that one of my good qualities is that I'm very accepting of the people closest to me and that I give them space to be who they are. She says it's good that I have a diverse range of friends, and that we don't try to push our values on one another. I've actually referred some of these friends to my T (and they now see her) and I think she has a pretty good perspective on the way I am in close relationships.

I agree that my T can help me, even if we have a different moral compass. I learned early on that we felt differently about certain things, and that was never an issue for me. What initially bothered me in this specific instance was that T SAID she believed one thing, and then acted the opposite way. It caught me off guard and surprised me. It made me have to go back and re-evaluate who I THOUGHT T was. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it DID catch me unawares. It made me think: "Is T being hypocritical? Hypocritical things usually bother me. Is T telling ME one thing, and then behaving differently HERSELF. If so, does this bother me? Does this make my therapy less effective? Do I trust T's judgement when it comes to relationships?" Since we don't have control over our feelings-- we just have to feel them-- I decided to write a couple of posts about how I was feeling about my T's revelation in order to help me process it. I'm not saying my feelings are "right" or that T is "wrong"-- I'm saying I had an emotional reaction to T's disclosure. That's probably why T's aren't supposed to disclose too much! Clients can't help but feel certain things about certain pieces of information, and when something doesn't fit with your "T schema," you're forced to reflect and re-evaluate and try to figure out who your T is NOW. That was admittedly difficult for me. But I really don't think that means that I wanted T to be "perfect"; I certainly didn't think she was perfect before! I've always seen my T as human. She has made little mistakes before, and it hasn't been a big deal. For me, this was kind of big news, and it was something I needed to feel and process.

You say that you think my T isn't feeling like a respected partner here-- I don't really get why you think that, either. I'm pretty sure that isn't how my T feels. My T seems to think everything is "just fine" between us and that the issue was that she just repeated herself last week, causing me to think she didn't hear me the first time. She thought it was a non-issue so she just wanted to move on, and talk about something else. The real issue-- much more than her self-disclosure-- is that I don't feel I'm being heard! Again, I didn't feel heard today when she kept saying the issue was the repetition; the repetition wasn't the problem. The problem was that she was trying to TELL ME how I felt, and she was wrong, and I felt that I had to defend myself against her putting feelings on me that I wasn't having. I was trying to tell her that she can ASK me how I'm feeling, but I don't like being TOLD how I'm feeling, when I don't feel that way. If she's getting how I feel totally wrong, how can we effectively process how I DO feel? How can I work on things efficiently when she thinks the wrong thing is the problem? I tried to get us back to what I was actually feeling and what I wanted to work on, but she kept cutting me off before I got to finish. I think it's okay to want to be heard in therapy, and to keep saying "no, you're not hearing me" and "no, I don't feel that way," and "no, this is the issue I'm having" each time she gets it wrong. How can we work on my issues if she doesn't understand what they are or how I feel about them?

[unaluna]

So what's the elephant in the room? Would you ask her if she was cheating? I would frame it to say that it bothers me about you (her). It's not that she has to answer, it's that people are fallible, as tinyrabbit said, and I don't see that you're confronting her about it. Instead you're kinda mad she can't tell you where to meet someone?

And yes I faced a similar thing with my t. Having to talk about a very personal thing of his. But what a breakthru it led to. Life is messy. We're not comfortable with that! But it doesn't have to get KimYe messy.

ETA: oops just saw that you responded. Sorry for the doubl post.

ETA: so reading between the lines, she says you feel isolated because you can't meet anyone. And you're feeling isolated because she's not hearing you. And because you cant talk to her about this thing. I feel like you want to keep moving like nothing's wrong, and she has stopped dead and said not til you SAY IT. That's what I'm observing. I know it doesn't make logical sense! I'm being touchy feely. Or full of it, idk!

ETA: at the end of your post, you report telling your t no 3 times. Yes, it is important to be heard, but I have a bad habit of saying no to everyone. So now I will even stop and ask my t if I said no. Your t seems more assertive than mine in holding the line here. Mine would have given up already. So I think that proves who is more monkey-headed!

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by hankster

So what's the elephant in the room? Would you ask her if she was cheating? I would frame it to say that it bothers me about you (her). It's not that she has to answer, it's that people are fallible, as tinyrabbit said, and I don't see that you're confronting her about it.

No, that isn't the elephant in the room at all. I'm not talking about her self-disclosure. I was initially dealing with that, but that's not the real issue. Forget anything I said about her self-disclosure. The elephant in the room is that she hasn't been HEARING me lately. Specifically, I felt she wasn't hearing me when I said I did NOT feel ISOLATED last week. I felt she was trying to PUSH THAT FEELING on me, when that was NOT how I was feeling. I wanted her to stop and LISTEN to how I was actually feeling. I was actually feeling CLAUSTROPHOBIC and wanted to be LEFT ALONE by people in my RL. I wanted LESS contact. Then, today, when I tried to bring it up and talk about that exchange and work on our therapy relationship, she changed the subject. She didn't want to talk about my not feeling heard or the therapy relationship. I wanted to work on this, work through this, and get back to her helping me with my "real" issues, which have nothing to do with dating or cheating or anything like that.

(Side note: She told me she cheated; I don't need to ask her. There is nothing I want to ask her. I don't want to know any more personal information. I know too much. I want to talk about ME and being HEARD.)

Originally Posted by hankster

Instead you're kinda mad she can't tell you where to meet someone?

Whoa. WTF? Where on Earth did that come from? I'm really confused!

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by hankster

so reading between the lines, she says you feel isolated because you can't meet anyone. And you're feeling isolated because she's not hearing you. And because you cant talk to her about this thing. I feel like you want to keep moving like nothing's wrong, and she has stopped dead and said not til you SAY IT. That's what I'm observing. I know it doesn't make logical sense! I'm being touchy feely. Or full of it, idk!

No, I do NOT feel isolated, by her or by anyone else--- jeez! How can I make that clear? My best friend is actually reading over my shoulder right now laughing hysterically, threatening to build me an igloo! He said he'd visit, but then maybe people would actually believe I wasn't isolated, so he better stay away! lol. What I was telling T during that session last week was that all the dating I was doing got me exhausted-- so I'm taking a break from dating-- and I'm not interested in meeting anyone right now. I'm tried and I'm feeling claustrophobic. I just want to spend time with my friends. My T misunderstood all of that and thought I must be feeling isolated, like I'm "giving up" on dating and beating myself up or something. I said NO! I'm just tired! I went on too many dates, met too many people, had too many people calling/texting me, I wasn't into them, so I just want a BREAK! I'm doing a bunch of fun stuff with my friends (just got back from vacation, have another one coming up) and I want to focus on them, and on my career. I'm not having a RL problem with any of this; my only problem was T not hearing me. As my best friend is saying over my shoulder, i'm going to him to act as my therapist to deal with my relationship with my actual therapist! He says I owe him a $10 copay, but he will settle for a frozen yogurt.

No, you have it backwards. I'm the one saying STOP! LISTEN! Let's talk about our relationship! Let's work this out! And T's saying "what? Everything between us is fine!" That's why I just wrote her the e-mail saying that I want to talk about her not hearing me!

[unaluna]

Sorry we are just not having a meeting of the minds here.

[scorpiosis37]

T just wrote me a lengthy response to my e-mail. *sigh of relief*

She apologized and said that she WAS distracted by her RL, not only with me, but in general. She said she didn't want to think it was distracting her at work, but it was.
She said that she misread the situation with me today and she really did fail to hear me. She thanked me for writing out exactly how I felt and giving her another chance to "hear" me because she said she DIDN'T hear me the first time. She said that she gets it now, and that everything she said today in session was off, now that she understands how I actually feel. She thanked me for valuing our relationship enough to tell her the truth (even though it was uncomfortable) and to say that I wanted to work through this with her by being honest, rather than avoiding it. She said that taking the courage to tell her exactly how I felt, even when I was scared of her reaction, was the right thing to do and that it will make our relationship stronger from here on out. She said we can talk about this more in person next session.

All I wanted was for her to hear me, and now I feel heard. Crisis over.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

Like I said in my other thread, I never expected or wanted T to be perfect. I only wanted her to be open to discussing this issue with me. I wanted her to allow the conversation and talk it through with me. I wanted to work with my feelings, rather than have her change the subject. How is that being self-righteous? I didn't accuse her of anything, tell her she did anything wrong, or ask her to do anything different. I only used "I feel" statements and tried to express to her how I was feeling. I said I wanted to talk about this issue, rather than avoid it. I don't see there is anything wrong with my approach?

I also just sent my T an e-mail (my 3rd e-mail ever!) explaining how I felt after our session today, and asking that we talk about it in more detail next week.

I hear how hard you worked, and thoughtful you were.

I imagine from reading your response if you feel vulnerable and defensive about being evaluated by others. I think I might. And I imagine that is hard after what you just went through and seeking support.

I hear you doing your work. I did one time talk to my T about changing a subject quickly and not picking up on something I said THREE times. His response was wonderful. I felt safer after this, knowing that bumps in the roads will be bumps, not big potholes, or sink holes in the road. It can be done by Ts. I hope she will listen to you.

[feralkittymom]

You really are between a rock and a hard place. I think you're onto something about countertransference and her daughter. If she has seen you like a daughter in the past, and is having an issue with her daughter about this recent relationship change, it's going to be a sore spot, no matter how correctly you try to frame it. She may just be unable/unwilling to go there with you, and it really isn't about you.

That leaves you in the position of perhaps needing to give her some space and time on this issue, while limiting your work to something rather defined and basic, if possible. I think eventually, you'll need to deal more deeply with all this, but maybe it just can't be done right now.

It's annoying to put it on hold, but if you value the relationship, then maybe it's worth it. Or perhaps a break would help.

Although the circumstances were very different, I experienced a similar feeling disconnect with my T at one point in therapy. He also saw me as a daughter in our relationship. I didn't understand what was happening, but it felt as if he were putting the issues I was bringing up aside. As though he wanted to "settle" my life and prepare me for ending our relationship. There were a couple of difficult months while this was playing out.

In hindsight, we surmounted the disconnect and my frustration when his health issues (of which I had no knowledge) culminated in his needing surgery. Talking it through after, he was dealing with fears of his own mortality, and the countertransference was revealing itself in his need to protect me from what was happening, yet also prepare me for a future without him. It all led to increased closeness between us, and eventually, a good termination when he retired. But in the interim, there was nothing I could do to shift him to addressing the issue. So I do wonder if some aspects of countertransference are at play here, in which case I think it will unfold only on its own timetable.
ETA: OK, just read your up-date. Glad to hear she admitted her RL was interferring. Sounds like you will have a good session next time!

[FeelTheBurn]

Wow, scorpiosis, kudos to you! Thanks for playing the role model for us in this one: you raised the issue in session, pursued it in a respectful but clear way when you didn't get resolution, wrote an email when that didn't work, and had the centered equanimity to not freak out while waiting for an answer. And then your T was good enough to knock the answer out of the park! Good for both of you, and thanks for sharing the experience.

[mixedup_emotions]

I am SO glad that your T was able to hear you and provided you with a response that was helpful. I wish my T was able to do that.

[ultramar]

Thanks so much for sharing all of this, Scorpiosis, it always takes courage to put it out there. And you've showed a great deal of courage and strength in this process. And wisdom. You've certainly got a good one there for owning her part in this, she sounds like a keeper, despite the issues going on right now. I'm very happy for you for this big step forward!