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  #26  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 09:15 AM
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Littlemeinside Littlemeinside is offline
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Originally Posted by Bill3 View Post
It sounds like growli's attachment is completely understandable and is being addressed by her T. To my mind, this attachment is to be worked through rather than criticized.
I donīt think anyone is critizing the OP, instead they are trying to offer support. That does come in all shapes and forms.
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  #27  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 09:15 AM
Bill3 Bill3 is online now
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I never said that anyone said it wasn't understandable. I simply gave my assessment of it, and why one needs to work with it.

I don't see anyone here encouraging it.
Thanks for this!
Syra
  #28  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 09:18 AM
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they are trying to offer support. That does come in all shapes and forms.
Thank you. I have edited the post accordingly.
  #29  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by A Red Panda View Post
I'm glad to see that you recognize that she can't be there all the time.

The attachment has to lessen. You cannot cling to it growli, it isn't healthy for you. You're in this setting to learn how to NOT be attached and how to care for yourself. You aren't doing that if you're actively clinging to your T.

ETA: Also, what did you do yesterday to actively take care of yourself? I'm glad that you made it without pushing yourself in to see T somehow. But what did you actually do? From your posts all I can see if that you were obsessing over your T. I'm sure you did more than that with your day!
I'm actually not obsessing over my T. I'm obsessing over disturbing memories/thoughts/whatever the hell these images are. I'm using her to help me process and get rid of it. Or I'm obsessing over her to help me not obsess over that.

Like, yesterday I had to call my mother to set up travel plans because my T and I have exhausted all options and there is literally nothing I can do except going back to that hell hole for three weeks just to appease her. Suddenly going financially independent right now isn't actually possible for me because I have no credit score to take out any loans. So once I talked to her and she gave me fresh ammo to be upset about that was less troubling than either my T or my memories, I ran with that and obsessed about hating her for a while. Even though she really honestly didn't say anything that upsetting. The little things she did annoyed me and I used that annoyance to break myself out of this cycle.

But then the annoyance turned to fear because she said if I don't figure out my flight plans by this evening, she'll make me drive back which would mean a 16 hour car ride with my dad. That sounds absolutely unbearable especially considering my memories/thoughts that are just starting to surface and I'm starting to think he did something to me. And I can't handle the idea of sitting with those thoughts with him right there for 16 consecutive hours.

So me obsessing over my T is an expression of genuine feelings, but I'm doing it because it's emotional enough for me to latch on to and push away the more upsetting directions my mind has been going.

And I don't feel criticized at all.
Thanks for this!
Bill3
  #30  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 02:23 PM
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I totally hear you on the panic over having to move back - I've had to do that too. It was horrific. I was basically in meltdown city for almost a year before going back! (was in England on a 2-year visa. It was ending and I had to go back).

I didn't think that becoming financially independent was your only goal for indepedence though?

What are you (and your T) working on to help you handle those thoughts and emotions? Like... what stuff has she been teaching/encouraging you to do when she's not around? I'm assuming that you did at least give them a go yesterday - because you did manage to spend the day solo! I'm just curious as to what you did that helped you through that. Honestly, I'd like to be able to give you props for doing whatever it was you were doing and help encourage you to do it more often. Because the solo skills are the ones that will help you the longest throughout your life.
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  #31  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by A Red Panda View Post
I totally hear you on the panic over having to move back - I've had to do that too. It was horrific. I was basically in meltdown city for almost a year before going back! (was in England on a 2-year visa. It was ending and I had to go back).

I didn't think that becoming financially independent was your only goal for indepedence though?

What are you (and your T) working on to help you handle those thoughts and emotions? Like... what stuff has she been teaching/encouraging you to do when she's not around? I'm assuming that you did at least give them a go yesterday - because you did manage to spend the day solo! I'm just curious as to what you did that helped you through that. Honestly, I'd like to be able to give you props for doing whatever it was you were doing and help encourage you to do it more often. Because the solo skills are the ones that will help you the longest throughout your life.
No. You're right. I need to be emotionally independent as well.

Well, mindfulness but I kinda suck at that unless I'm just trying to focus on drawing or something, writing my emotions instead of acting on them, frozen oranges, sitting with feelings, I played a grounding technique game with one of my friends last night via text without her knowing I needed it, distracting myself. Stuff like that.

I told my T about everything today. I eventually told her how confused I felt when she said she loves me and then got mad at me. I asked her if it was a mistake. She said it wasn't a mistake that she said that, she won't confirm that she meant it at this point, she said that I already know what she meant by it and that I'm ruminating too much. She apologized for being a bit too harsh in the afternoon. She said she was too "triggery". I told her I was afraid to see her the next day and looping around thinking about it. We didn't have time to address all of it today. She wants to talk about it on Monday with me.

So I feel better. I could feel everything was normal between us again. I still need to figure out how to be more independent.
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  #32  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 05:35 PM
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I'm glad the chat went well with your T today about it.

And, from what I've heard, mindfulness can be a slow-going thing to learn. It sounds like you've been gaining quite a few new skills since you've been there that ARE helping! Which is great. It was totally what I wanted to hear from you - I was sure you had them, you just haven't shared them with us yet!

What sort of a grounding technique game was it? That sounds interesting and I've never heard of any games for grounding.
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"The time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things. Of shoes, of ships, of sealing wax, of cabbages, of kings! Of why the sea is boiling hot, of whether pigs have wings..."

"I have a problem with low self-esteem. Which is really ridiculous when you consider how amazing I am.


  #33  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 10:06 PM
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growlycat growlycat is offline
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oh my-- is there any way NOT to go back???? it seems like a terrible terrible terrible idea. Does your T realize the danger this puts you in?? Maybe you could focus on a way out of not going home. There has to be another way.
  #34  
Old Dec 06, 2013, 11:00 PM
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oh my-- is there any way NOT to go back???? it seems like a terrible terrible terrible idea. Does your T realize the danger this puts you in?? Maybe you could focus on a way out of not going home. There has to be another way.
Yes she does. She really doesn't want to send me back. She thinks it is really really dangerous and risky but there literally is no other way. My parents said they would completely cut me off if I don't go back for winter break. I have absolutely no way of paying for anything so quickly AND I have no credit so I can't get any loans. I'd be completely cut off of their health coverage as well. So I'd be homeless. They don't even care.

I've come up with so many different ways to stay here. My mother vetoed all of them and absolutely wouldn't cooperate. There is literally no other way.

She is trying to figure out how to keep me safe. She said she wants me to email her/call her throughout break and she gave me her personal info so I can do that. She will be doing that actually without pay because I won't be in the program I'm seeing her in anymore. She also came up a plan that involves basically peer mediating between me and my mom. It won't be enough to actually fix the problem. The problem will mostly be my intense flashbacks I have there and now with these foggy memories of potential CSA, it will only be worse.

She is very worried. I'm very worried. The program is very worried. It's just a mess and I literally have no options but be homeless. I'm meeting with someone to help me get a part time job in Boston so I can hopefully at least have some job experience/some savings/figure out how to get a credit score so she can't just blind side me like this again. Ugh.
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Thanks for this!
growlycat
  #35  
Old Dec 07, 2013, 12:55 AM
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Has anyone in the program spoken directly with either of your parents? I'm wondering if either of them could be persuaded along the lines of sending you home at this time would seriously jeopardize your recovery and then all the money they've already spent would essentially be wasted. Of course, it's not the reasoning that anyone wants to believe would work, but results are what you need right now.
Thanks for this!
growlycat
  #36  
Old Dec 07, 2013, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by feralkittymom View Post
Has anyone in the program spoken directly with either of your parents? I'm wondering if either of them could be persuaded along the lines of sending you home at this time would seriously jeopardize your recovery and then all the money they've already spent would essentially be wasted. Of course, it's not the reasoning that anyone wants to believe would work, but results are what you need right now.
Oh boy have they. My T has tried to reason with her and has put HOURS of time into it. One day, she stayed home sick from work. Had the stomach flu. My mother decided to email her like a million times, demanding various things or threatening to cut me off. My T told her that she is vomiting and unable to really do much, but my mom didn't care. T ultimately ended up calling me, telling me we needed a plan to shut her up and ensure that she doesn't demolish the rest of my treatment plans.

I contact my mom and she responds by contacting my T and then gets angry that I haven't contacted her. I did contact her. She just ignored it and called my T instead.

My mom literally isn't budging. She says if I'm not "a part of the family", giving me any more money at all is a waste. T and I have been super creative and literally have been shot down every time.
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  #37  
Old Dec 07, 2013, 08:03 AM
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I've probably missed it: but how long is your mom demanding you return home for? What's the time-line? (I'm just hoping there's a clear end-date when you will leave and return to school or something?)

Do you have many friends who live nearby where your parents are? Is your family's home walking distance to places like libraries or parks or somewhere to volunteer? Like.... are there any options for things you can do while stuck there to get you out of the house as much as possible? Can you like... get some books for the next term's courses you'll be hoping to take and start in on studying on them so that you can shut yourself up in your room?
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"The time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things. Of shoes, of ships, of sealing wax, of cabbages, of kings! Of why the sea is boiling hot, of whether pigs have wings..."

"I have a problem with low self-esteem. Which is really ridiculous when you consider how amazing I am.


  #38  
Old Dec 07, 2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by A Red Panda View Post
I've probably missed it: but how long is your mom demanding you return home for? What's the time-line? (I'm just hoping there's a clear end-date when you will leave and return to school or something?)

Do you have many friends who live nearby where your parents are? Is your family's home walking distance to places like libraries or parks or somewhere to volunteer? Like.... are there any options for things you can do while stuck there to get you out of the house as much as possible? Can you like... get some books for the next term's courses you'll be hoping to take and start in on studying on them so that you can shut yourself up in your room?
Three weeks. I have a return flight booked for the 10th of January and a homecoming appointment with my T set up for that date.

No. My friends from there are super unreliable and I only have one or two. I'm not in walking distance of anything... but now I can drive. I literally have no idea what courses I'll be able to take next semester. Plus, none of them require "studying". Some require practice.
  #39  
Old Dec 07, 2013, 09:15 AM
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A Red Panda A Red Panda is offline
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Daaaammmmmnnnn That's a lot like what it's like when I'm back home.

You'll have internet access at least? If it's for Christmas, can you like... set up days/times to have Christmas movie/cartoon marathons conveniently timed for when everyone else is awake and at home? Do your parents have to work for a good chunk of the three weeks?

Can you plan out having like... an hour long walk each evening when everyone's home? It would be good for an escape and also sorta like a moving meditation. (Not possible where I live! It gets to -40C!). You could have your T back you up on that plan if your mom gets on your case about it... just be like "you can call my T mom. It's part of my treatment plan. These walks are something I have committed to doing".
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"The time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things. Of shoes, of ships, of sealing wax, of cabbages, of kings! Of why the sea is boiling hot, of whether pigs have wings..."

"I have a problem with low self-esteem. Which is really ridiculous when you consider how amazing I am.


  #40  
Old Dec 07, 2013, 10:11 AM
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growlithing growlithing is offline
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Originally Posted by A Red Panda View Post
Daaaammmmmnnnn That's a lot like what it's like when I'm back home.

You'll have internet access at least? If it's for Christmas, can you like... set up days/times to have Christmas movie/cartoon marathons conveniently timed for when everyone else is awake and at home? Do your parents have to work for a good chunk of the three weeks?

Can you plan out having like... an hour long walk each evening when everyone's home? It would be good for an escape and also sorta like a moving meditation. (Not possible where I live! It gets to -40C!). You could have your T back you up on that plan if your mom gets on your case about it... just be like "you can call my T mom. It's part of my treatment plan. These walks are something I have committed to doing".
Yes I have internet. If I am on it "too much" when my mom is home (meaning more than 30mins) I get yelled at. If I hide all day in the basement, I get yelled at. However, my mom does have to work most of the three weeks. Don't know about dad. He leaves me completely alone though. Completely ignores me.

Similar situation with the weather. I'm not sure exactly how cold -40C is, but I know it goes below 10F frequently and often below 0F. (-14 and -17C).
  #41  
Old Dec 07, 2013, 10:35 AM
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If you bundle up you can still go out for walks! Maybe not an hour if you're not used to the cold though.

So you can aim for it like... 30 minutes when she gets home.... and as long of a walk as you can stomach in the weather... and maybe one Christmas movie tops (hell, invite them to watch it with you. Movies can at least be endured in relative silence and can count as a "family" activity)... I'm sure your mom would complain/criticize you over cooking, but do you think you could offer to make supper at least a few times? Then you could have the kitchen solo (unless your mom would hover over you... which case that wouldn't help). Could you spend some time each night doing chores at home? Boring and tedious, but it counts as a "dutiful daughter" thing, and again, as long as she doesn't follow you around, will give you time to hide a bit. Time your showers for at night when they're still awake. If you can sleep in until she leaves for work that would help then - although she might wake you up? In that case, hopefully it wouldn't last for long.

Is your T planning on doing any phone sessions with you during the three weeks? If so - time them for at night and pre-plan topics that you could endure your mom catching snippits of it. Have your T tell her that to have a session you need privacy. If your mom can't handle that then it'll be scrapped, but your T can duke it out with her for a little bit if she's up for that? (This obviously won't be possible during your T's holiday time). Can you get ahold of any workout videos? If so, spend half an hour each night working out. You could probably borrow one from someone for the three weeks.
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"The time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things. Of shoes, of ships, of sealing wax, of cabbages, of kings! Of why the sea is boiling hot, of whether pigs have wings..."

"I have a problem with low self-esteem. Which is really ridiculous when you consider how amazing I am.


  #42  
Old Dec 07, 2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by A Red Panda View Post
If you bundle up you can still go out for walks! Maybe not an hour if you're not used to the cold though.

So you can aim for it like... 30 minutes when she gets home.... and as long of a walk as you can stomach in the weather... and maybe one Christmas movie tops (hell, invite them to watch it with you. Movies can at least be endured in relative silence and can count as a "family" activity)... I'm sure your mom would complain/criticize you over cooking, but do you think you could offer to make supper at least a few times? Then you could have the kitchen solo (unless your mom would hover over you... which case that wouldn't help). Could you spend some time each night doing chores at home? Boring and tedious, but it counts as a "dutiful daughter" thing, and again, as long as she doesn't follow you around, will give you time to hide a bit. Time your showers for at night when they're still awake. If you can sleep in until she leaves for work that would help then - although she might wake you up? In that case, hopefully it wouldn't last for long.

Is your T planning on doing any phone sessions with you during the three weeks? If so - time them for at night and pre-plan topics that you could endure your mom catching snippits of it. Have your T tell her that to have a session you need privacy. If your mom can't handle that then it'll be scrapped, but your T can duke it out with her for a little bit if she's up for that? (This obviously won't be possible during your T's holiday time). Can you get ahold of any workout videos? If so, spend half an hour each night working out. You could probably borrow one from someone for the three weeks.
Well, why go on walks when I could go to the gym? I could drive to the gym. The gym I am a member of is right across the street in Boston, but is a 30 min drive from me from my parent's house (different gym obviously but my membership works there). My mom is obsessed with my weight and would r LOVE it if I did that. That would be like 2 hours away from home.

My mom brushed my teeth until I was 13. I was never allowed to work the oven because she was convinced I'd burn the house down. Hell, I'm still probably not allowed to use the oven. But I have no idea how to cook at all. I have learned a very small amount from school. I can make quesdadillas. I could cook them what I have learned to cook though. They might really like that and consider me behaving in a way that is a "part of the family". Hmmm. I could try that once. My siblings most likely won't eat it unless I let my little brother "help" me. That would at least be entertaining.

The problem is that if I am cleaning the kitchen, my mom will sit at the island and just talk at me. She lives in the kitchen. It is her home. It would keep her off my back though.

I have some exercise equipment in my house. I could use that for an hour a day and she would be off my back then.

My T is amazing and actually will not be taking any vacation time when it comes to me. She is scheduled to work the week of Christmas/New Year at the residential program anyway, but there will be I believe no point in which she will be unavailable to me. We are working out how we are going to handle phone conversations because I am quite phobic of my mother coming and listening outside my door even when told not to. The entire house is set up with an intercom system and she could spy on me almost without me knowing. I guess we'll have to figure out when she's working/not working.
  #43  
Old Dec 07, 2013, 11:28 AM
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A Red Panda A Red Panda is offline
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I was just trying to think of things that wouldn't cost money - like, going for a walk at home requires no gas money or anything. If you have a membership though - go for it! Hell, you don't even have to actually work out if you don't want to! Just have a shower there before you head home so that it looks like you got sweaty and showered. haha. Or go putz around in a bookshop or a coffee shop or something during that time and then pop in to the gym.

Oh! Offer to pick up groceries. Let your mom give you a list and the money, and you could take your younger sibling(s) with you as a "treat" for your mom to just chill on her own.

You could experiment with some simple recipes - there's loads of them online.

You can always do other chores that aren't in the kitchen - you could vacuum, or dust as that requires going room to room. Do your younger siblings have like a playroom or anything? Reorganize and tidy them if they do (or their bedrooms).

You could also volunteer to shovel the laneway if it snows and needs shovelled! THAT is a chore and a half that takes ages!

And with the younger siblings - Christmas movie nights are tooootally possible.

How old are your siblings? Could you do crafts with them? Those take up time, especially if you pick out some time consuming ones!

Is there any chance that you could get some knitting needles and attempt to learn how to knit? If you're just learning it'll take loads of concentration. If your mom is not fully up with that, say you want to try to make her a scarf (OR blanket! That'd take longer) and since you're just learning you really want to focus so that you could possibly see if you could finish it before you leave. Ask your dad if he'd purchase the yarn as a present for your mom.

I'm just trying to help brainstorm. I totally get how crappy it is to be stuck there, and if it's inevitable... can at least try to find as many things as possible to keep you occupied and try to keep you in spots where you can have minimal contact.
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"The time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things. Of shoes, of ships, of sealing wax, of cabbages, of kings! Of why the sea is boiling hot, of whether pigs have wings..."

"I have a problem with low self-esteem. Which is really ridiculous when you consider how amazing I am.


  #44  
Old Dec 08, 2013, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by A Red Panda View Post
I was just trying to think of things that wouldn't cost money - like, going for a walk at home requires no gas money or anything. If you have a membership though - go for it! Hell, you don't even have to actually work out if you don't want to! Just have a shower there before you head home so that it looks like you got sweaty and showered. haha. Or go putz around in a bookshop or a coffee shop or something during that time and then pop in to the gym.

Oh! Offer to pick up groceries. Let your mom give you a list and the money, and you could take your younger sibling(s) with you as a "treat" for your mom to just chill on her own.

You could experiment with some simple recipes - there's loads of them online.

You can always do other chores that aren't in the kitchen - you could vacuum, or dust as that requires going room to room. Do your younger siblings have like a playroom or anything? Reorganize and tidy them if they do (or their bedrooms).

You could also volunteer to shovel the laneway if it snows and needs shovelled! THAT is a chore and a half that takes ages!

And with the younger siblings - Christmas movie nights are tooootally possible.

How old are your siblings? Could you do crafts with them? Those take up time, especially if you pick out some time consuming ones!

Is there any chance that you could get some knitting needles and attempt to learn how to knit? If you're just learning it'll take loads of concentration. If your mom is not fully up with that, say you want to try to make her a scarf (OR blanket! That'd take longer) and since you're just learning you really want to focus so that you could possibly see if you could finish it before you leave. Ask your dad if he'd purchase the yarn as a present for your mom.

I'm just trying to help brainstorm. I totally get how crappy it is to be stuck there, and if it's inevitable... can at least try to find as many things as possible to keep you occupied and try to keep you in spots where you can have minimal contact.
Thanks for trying to help. Your suggestions assume a much more functional family than what I have. I have no relationship with my dad, almost no relationship with my siblings, and a fake relationship with my mom. I have no interest in repairing these relationships. Maybe someday I will with my siblings, but not for a while. My siblings are 12 and 16. I don't really like being around them either. My 12 year old brother is okay in small doses but my sister is obnoxious. I'm not close to either.

I will offer to do groceries. I'm gonna try to get out as much as I can.

lol I'm 20 years old with a license and access to a car. My mother wouldn't need to know if I got knitting needles nor would I need to ask my father to buy yarn. If I asked him to do that, it would never happen first off because I don't come up on his list of priorities, and it would be weird. He literally doesn't talk to me. Like, I asked him to change a lightbulb for me because I didn't know where we kept them, and I kept asking him for almost two years. I eventually just found it and did it despite getting yelled at because if it. I'm apparently not responsible enough to change a lightbulb. My mother is not worth my time required to knit anything. She's not even worth the yarn. Knitting isn't really my style though.

I've been stockpiling some games to play. I'm also putting together a practice list. I'm just gonna have to grin and bear it.
  #45  
Old Dec 08, 2013, 06:14 PM
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Oh, well with siblings that old then there's no way to try and get it easier with your mom by offering to watch them - they're a-ok on their own so try to do some things "for the family" on your own.

And I figured as a student you were probably broke (I was!) and wouldn't have necessarily been able to get things. And I wasn't suggesting it due to wanting to actually make her something - just as a way to get some undisturbed time. And I figure, with your mom seeming to be quite selfish, that saying it was for her would lead to a slightly more likely chance of being left in peace to do it.

I honestly wasn't suggesting anything at all because I thought it would help repair your family - I figure that it's just not happening (as is how things are with me and my family). I also didn't really think they'd be enjoyable activities. Just the things I could think of that could be possibly seen as "helpful" and not as "selfish" (I was thinking of my own mom really), and then trying to twist them around and adding things to make having the activity interrupted as little as possible (like... taking the younger siblings being seen as giving your mom time to herself, vs getting yelled at for being out of the house too much. If your siblings were younger it'd have worked well!)
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"The time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things. Of shoes, of ships, of sealing wax, of cabbages, of kings! Of why the sea is boiling hot, of whether pigs have wings..."

"I have a problem with low self-esteem. Which is really ridiculous when you consider how amazing I am.


  #46  
Old Dec 08, 2013, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by A Red Panda View Post
Oh, well with siblings that old then there's no way to try and get it easier with your mom by offering to watch them - they're a-ok on their own so try to do some things "for the family" on your own.

And I figured as a student you were probably broke (I was!) and wouldn't have necessarily been able to get things. And I wasn't suggesting it due to wanting to actually make her something - just as a way to get some undisturbed time. And I figure, with your mom seeming to be quite selfish, that saying it was for her would lead to a slightly more likely chance of being left in peace to do it.

I honestly wasn't suggesting anything at all because I thought it would help repair your family - I figure that it's just not happening (as is how things are with me and my family). I also didn't really think they'd be enjoyable activities. Just the things I could think of that could be possibly seen as "helpful" and not as "selfish" (I was thinking of my own mom really), and then trying to twist them around and adding things to make having the activity interrupted as little as possible (like... taking the younger siblings being seen as giving your mom time to herself, vs getting yelled at for being out of the house too much. If your siblings were younger it'd have worked well!)
No my mom babies my brother and he still will have a babysitter sometimes. He kinda needs one though because he doesn't feed himself on his own. Or cut his own food. He cuts his own food when I'm watching him though. I don't play that ****. He's 12 and can work a table knife just fine. My mom is just a control freak.

No my mom would LOVE all of those suggestions. The thing is that I don't want to make her happy. I don't want her to like me or enjoy me being around. I want to unnoticed. If she likes me being around, she vents to me about all of her problems and I just don't care. I don't care to hear what crap she has to spew because all of it is crap. I don't need her to rant at me about how difficult of a child I was or the "financial problems" my treatment created her. I don't need to hear it. She will find something to pick on me about regardless. And we are talking about a woman who literally nags me through the bathroom door. Me knitting means that I am sitting quietly and I'm therefore able to talk to her. She's so obnoxious.
  #47  
Old Dec 08, 2013, 06:55 PM
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DelusionsDaily DelusionsDaily is offline
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Nevermind
  #48  
Old Dec 08, 2013, 08:05 PM
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A Red Panda A Red Panda is offline
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Yeah, you know your family situation best.

But I was by no means trying to make her happy. I was trying to think of situations to give her minimal chance to interact with you - personally, my mom gets on my case a LOT even if I'm doing something productive and needed - if she doesn't see how it relates to her at all or doesn't see it as too her benefit, then I should be putting it down to do what she wanted. That's the perspective I'm going from! If your mom's the sort who would sit there and chat with you while doing something... then knitting sure wouldn't work.
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