Talked more about attachment/boundaries with T and things somehow got even worse

I had another session with T today (even though we usually only do once a week) because I’d had a session with her yesterday and brought up some attachment/boundary related stuff and I felt fairly distressed when I left and like we hadn’t really dealt with what we needed to deal with, so I asked her if we could have another session today, to which she agreed.

And it did not go well at all. It felt like we were two people having a disagreement instead of a therapist who is completely attuned to her client (which is how it usually feels because she’s good at that). It felt like she was being super defensive at pretty much everything I brought up.

I was trying to be super honest and open with her. I told her that I felt really vulnerable even bringing up the fact that I trusted her so much because I was scared she would think I was too dependent on her, and how upset I was yesterday when I felt like that was basically what happened.

I told her that I really started trusting her when she broke her own no contact between sessions rule a few times when I was very distressed and wanted to call her, and I told her that I was upset at a few specific things she’d said yesterday that felt shaming.

I told her that some of the things she’d done over the past few weeks really felt caring to me, and her response (as per usual) is, “I care about all my clients,” and I mentioned to her (again) that it upsets me when she says that, and I tried to use the NVC tool that she’s been teaching me and I said, “When you say that, I feel really anxious because I have a need to feel cared about by you as an individual because that is necessary for me to trust you, and when you just repeat that you care about all of your clients, that makes me worry that I might be interpreting your ‘caring gestures’ incorrectly.”

And she got super defensive at that and said that it’s my issue that I need her to say that and to stop “badgering” her about it; these are her boundaries and she’s not comfortable saying that she cares about me. And then she went on about how clients come and go and therapists have lots of clients and can’t care like that and how some therapists won’t even let their clients call between sessions…I’ve had many therapists before and not a single one of them had an issue with saying, “Yearning, I care about you and I really want to help you succeed…”

I know these are my therapist’s own boundary issues and she has the right to set her own boundaries; it just annoyed me that she didn’t even want to admit to me that they were HER issues, not mine.

What she said was pretty much that I needed to figure out why I wanted her to care about me and how that applies to other relationships, which I don’t think is super fair, because I don’t actually have this issue in other relationships; this is genuinely an interpersonal issue in regards to her and my comfort level with her. It just felt to me like she didn’t want to make herself vulnerable by saying, “I care about you,” and that didn’t sit well with me.

And pretty much the whole time (when I mentioned that several things she said upset me or made me feel ashamed) she was super defensive and said I was criticizing her and these were my protector emotions stepping in to make me less vulnerable.

Usually I’m actually pretty good at noticing when I’m treating her badly or projecting stuff onto her, and today was genuinely not one of those days. I wasn’t yelling, being sarcastic, criticizing, or belittling; I was very calm and I was using “I” statements. So I don’t know if maybe she was seeing something I couldn’t see or if she was just feeling defensive or what…

To be fair, she is a really good T and we work really well together and I’ve made a lot of really good changes with her. I’ve told her more in seven months than I told a past T in four years, and I really don’t want to go find a new T. But I don’t know if this need to be cared about is going to go away or if we can work through this or not. When she refuses to tell me she cares about me even after I told her I need to hear it, this makes me doubt all of her caring gestures, and it makes me feel like maybe I can’t trust her or like I got “tricked”.

But it sounded to me like she was telling me I had failed by contacting her twice between sessions and that I needed more than she could provide...like I was asking too much of her and like I shouldn’t ask so much of her, and that felt like she was conforming my worst fear of depending on someone and them telling me I shouldn't, and she KNOWS I have these issues.

She said she wasn’t trying to shame me for needing her, but it felt like she was – she pointed out that I wanted an extra session this week (which I explicitly told her I didn’t need if she wasn’t okay with it) and that maybe I needed to pay another $130 a week to do some DBT group therapy, which my father is NOT going to pay for and is thus out of the question (and her response to this was that maybe I should see her every other week instead of every week, although I have no idea how that would solve the problem).

I feel like maybe this stuff is all in my head and it's just old patterns about attachment and she wasn't actually saying or didn't actually mean stuff the way I heard it - maybe she DID say it’s okay to need her (the session wasn’t actually THAT bad; she did pretty well with a lot of things) but I just didn't hear it that way.

So I have no idea what to do.

Yearning, I'm so sorry your session went like this that would be my idea of a nightmare.

If she is resolute in her attitude (I know for me it would be a waste of time trying to work with her, I need to feel like my therapist and I have an individual relationship (same as she has with each of her clients, I want us ALL to be special snowflakes) and I'm not just receiving some mass-produced care!) maybe it's time to start considering a new therapist? How easy/difficult do you think it would be to start with somebody new?

I'm sorry this all sounds so painful! I admire your ability to say how you feel and ask for what you need, as I struggle with both. I do wonder why your T is responding in this manner....it seems kind of perplexing as she has been so helpful to you up to now. I'm not sure what the course of action should be, but seems like this is something that one can't just ignore. Do you think she'd be open to exploring more about this with you? I do know that some Ts will share that they care about a client so I know it's not unethical to say so....just not clear on why the defensiveness on her part (?)

So sorry!! wish there was something I could do to help....

I think it would be super complicated to start with a new T for a few reasons.

A) I do usually trust her a lot and we usually have a pretty good rapport and I have made some REALLY good changes while seeing her

B) I've told her way more super deep stuff in 7 months than I told a previous therapist in 4 years and I really don't want to have to tell my story all over again and start fresh (and when you're 18, 7 months is a LONG time to see someone)

C) She actually specializes in all of my issues and has a lot of textbook knowledge, which I really like

D) It would be incredibly complicated to convince my father to make out a whole new series of checks to a new therapist and have him feel like I wasted about $6000 of his on this T. It was hard enough to get the money to start with.

Wow. She has something going on inside of her regarding this topic. Possibly something that happened with another client or something she is afraid of. This has absolutely nothing to do with you personally.

I don't know about the defensiveness either; it was the same when I brought up all this stuff yesterday and I thought maybe she was just having an off day and we could resolve the issues today, but no...

In the past, discussing this stuff has never really led to anywhere good; it's always just seemed like we're going in circles since neither one of us is willing to really change (well, if I could turn off the need, I could, but I can't).

I think she probably just has her own boundary issues based on past experiences with other clients that have nothing to do with me...but it's not really any of my business.

I know that if I just leave this issue alone we can still have productive sessions and I can still make progress, but I can't help this feeling of betrayal...of being tricked into believing she really cared about me...I can probably still make changes without feeling like she really cares about me, but I don't know how that's going to impact the trust I have for her and my ability to be vulnerable with her, and I'm scared we're going to hit this wall again and again like we have in the past.

And I feel super bad about even bringing it up and derailing all the amazing progress I've been making with this issue again...I know her boundaries are where they need to be for her own reasons and I don't want to make her uncomfortable by bringing up how they aren't meeting my needs, mostly because when I do that she isn't the usual caring-through-her-actions, emotionally-attuned T she always is...and then I feel like I'm wrong for even having this need that she can't fill, regardless of her other wonderful qualities.

Maybe...and she's just a person too, so there's that...or maybe I was just misinterpreting her or being oversensitive or something...I don't know. But is it wrong to have this need for her to care about me? I don't think I'm relying on her or anything, but even if I was, part of me is like, "Okay, so what? She's my therapist; she's an important adult in my life right now and she's seen me through a lot. It's not going to be forever; someday we'll part ways and I'll be fine with that. So what's the big deal?" But even though she said explicitly that it's not wrong for our relationship to be important to me, it feels like the undertone is really that it's WRONG for me to need her. But I don't know if that's my own baggage coming into play or whether it's actually what she's saying.

It's not wrong to need her or want her to care about you. Wants and needs are fine, but when we expect our needs/wants to be met, that's when we tend to get in trouble. That's when we start to infringe on the rights of others. That said, you do seem to have a good handle on that concept (especially for your age...I thought the world existed to please me at that age).

But now you have a choice to make. Can you accept this feeling of betrayal and continue on or is this going to eat at you long term? Here's the kicker, it's not something you're going to know today or tomorrow. You can decide to make that decision today (yes, I actually said that ) or wait. It's all in your hands.

May not be what you wanted to hear, but I truly hope you can do what's best for you!

I'm fairly bemused by her attitude. If it's not ok for her clients to need her and she gets testy about it, then she'll be fishing for clients in a very small pool. We are clients because we don't know how to work it out on our own - we need them in our own personal various capacities, to heal/ change/ grow, and reach our full potential.

To be fair, I think maybe it might be that I interpreted that more harshly than she intended it - she said specifically what she wants is for me to "flex my independence muscle" because her job is to make me more independent...which I have no issue with at all, and since I've been seeing her I've been way better at regulating my own emotions and having healthy boundaries with other people and dealing with a lot of really tough things in a really mature way. I guess I just don't see the harm in needing her a little bit, for now at least. And it feels really good to have the person that I tell practically everything to care about me - or more importantly, it feels really scary that she might not, even though part of me knows she DOES but just for her own reasons doesn't want to tell me so...I guess I just have to figure out if I can be okay with that or not.

My t always told me she cared about me, she told me , iam a special client, and any therApist would be very happy to work with me, me she had no problems paying me those compliments. Imo I dont see harm where your t can say yes I care for you as a client.

I get what she's trying to do. But I believe she's doing it poorly and allowing her own junk to get in the way of adequately conveying what she is trying to convey.

So what do I do about it to fix this rupture in our relationship? I think maybe a big part is that I REALIZED during our session that she was letting a lot of her own stuff get in the way, and my first instinct was to do the whole compassion thing that she's been teaching me to do with other people and be like, "Okay, T, for some reason me stating my discomfort with your boundaries is making you uncomfortable/bringing something up for you. Where do you think that's coming from? Could it be because of past experiences with other clients who are not me?" (No, I did NOT say that to her, but I was tempted for about thirty seconds.)

It's not MY job to be HER therapist, but I was noticing that her own stuff was in the way and I didn't really know how to respond to that in a way that wasn't going to sound critical of her, because she already thought I was criticizing her when I wasn't (or didn't mean to). So then my first instinct is to go in when I see her next week and apologize for upsetting her (because obviously she was upset because she was getting all defensive) or for making her feel criticized or whatever, but I don't think that's actually my role or responsibility and that might actually make things worse...that's the thing about therapists. You can't really relate to them interpersonally because they're not comfortable with that, but they're also just...people.

Don't read this harshly, but I'm not going to say what I think you want to hear; I do understand how painful this sort of moment in therapy can be, and you can get through it and be stronger for it

I don't see any evidence that your discomfort with her boundaries is a result of her problems. You've said she's been a good T and that you've made progress and have a good relationship.

When she refuses to tell me she cares about me even after I told her I need to hear it, this makes me doubt all of her caring gestures, and it makes me feel like maybe I can’t trust her or like I got “tricked”.

When she said she cares about all of her clients, instead of feeling comforted by that--because it is evidence of her caring nature--you feel it as a competition: that if she cares for others, then she can't care enough about you. Do you see the difference? The first is an adult perception; the second is how a child developmentally views a parent. It's what people call "sibling rivalry." It's a stage.

It's not healthy or functional to insist on "proof" of caring from someone. There's nothing wrong with the feeling of need--and your T validated that--but to then try to coerce or compel a demonstration from someone else is a violation of that person's right to their own expression of emotion (or their choice to not express an emotion). It's also fruitless because the demonstrations are never enough--they never fill the need. That's why she's holding the line and refusing to be manipulated.

It's a fine line between asking for what you need, which is a mature action, coupled with a willingness to explore what the need means, ending with an acceptance that the other person has the right and responsibility to respond as they see fit;-- and demanding a particular response, not examining the need, and then projecting one's frustration onto the other person and using it as a rationale for why they're wrong.

She's doing well by you. The hard work of therapy can be coming to terms with such needs in ourselves and learning how to meet them within ourselves in a healthy way.

I think that you have a point, that she is possibly overwhelmed in her own life/schedule.
Much of what you relate, to me anyways, screams "I can't humanly take care of you to the extent that you need it". She probably cares very much but sounds stressed and yes, defensive. I have found it helpful to point out defensiveness to T. Usually, T will go back and think about it.

Sorry, this sounds painful. I've had times where T has told me to go call friends--that hurt!! The things I needed to talk about were not friend-safe topics.

I actually think it was less about her caring about other clients (I am under no illusions that I am the "favorite" or "most cared about" client - honestly, genuinely, I couldn't care less) but more about feeling like part of a collective instead of an individual person, which is really the opposite of what our relationship feels like to me because I am actually an individual person with individual problems/issues/concerns/character traits.

I volunteer with kids, and if one of them came up to me and said, "Do you care about me?" I would never dream of saying, "I care about all my students," to that kid. I would instead say something like, "Of course I care about you. I also care about everyone in your class." Maybe it's a really tiny arbitrary thing, but to me there was just something about that particular wording that felt really wrong to me.

We did discuss where that need was coming from - for me it's just that to trust someone, to make myself vulnerable in front of someone, I need to know that person has even a little tiny bit of personal investment in me. And also just that I know for me, telling other people I care about them is a super vulnerable thing, so for me, her saying, "I care about you," would have been levelling the playing field slightly so I would have felt more comfortable and safe. And "I care about all my clients" is about the least vulnerable way a person could phrase a statement of caring.

Obviously she has the right to her own boundaries and obviously she has the right to express emotions the way she wants to express them. It just felt sort of like a wall to me that I don't really know how to navigate, since I don't know how comfortable I really am discussing super vulnerable things with her after that answer (which was probably my fault for bringing it up in the first place, because otherwise I could have just felt cared about and let it be). It's very difficult for me to be extremely vulnerable with someone who won't be even a little bit vulnerable with me in return. Maybe those are just my old issues (they probably are), but also, reality of how I'm feeling.

The thing about that is just that I don't think I've really been asking her for anything unreasonable. Which is why it was so upsetting for me; it felt like she was discounting all my hard work and the changes I've been making to be more independent/less needy. We cut down sessions from two a week to once a week and I've been fine with that; I didn't see her for three weeks over the break and was just fine with that too. The things she was "upset" about were two anomalies, both of which I asked her explicitly if she was okay with.

I called a few weeks ago between sessions and told her if she could do a phone session I would appreciate it but if it was a boundary for her or if she didn't have time or didn't want to, not to worry about it and I would deal with the thing myself (to which she said no, it was fine, and she was glad she could be there for me).

The other time was yesterday when I asked her if we could do another session today because I was very upset after that discussion (I've never asked for this in the past) and I told her if she wasn't okay with it, I would be fine and deal with it myself and I would leave it up to her, but I would appreciate it if she was fine with it. To which she agreed. So I don't understand why she would have agreed to things she felt uncomfortable with if she was uncomfortable with them.

I wouldn't like that. at all. And I thought you did a great job.
Maybe being on record that you don't like it, and bringing it up whenever it comes up as an issue, is good enough. That way you aren't silenced. you aren't cowered by it. I know it's hard to start all over, particularly when the T has some really good parts. Would that work?

Your responses to her boundaries sound very reasonable and not needy at all. That's what makes it sound like it is her stuff interfering with therapy.

It sounds like she has some issues of her own she needs to work through and it is not right of her to project those onto you and this situation. It isn't fair.

I'm sorry it feels so crummy.
I can understand her to some extent though. My T had never told me she cares about me it has always been a generalized "so many people care about you".
She had always showed that she cares. So many caring words and gestures that I know make her a unique T from what I've experienced and reading about the experiences of others.

I think everyone, T or not, has their own "language of caring". Some are more verbal, some aren't, and some use gestures and words simultaneously. Words can be uncomfortable for some people. They're too vulnerable.
And unfortunately there are even those Ts they will verbally say they care about you, but will never show it through gestures and prove the validity of their claims.



-Hope

I volunteer with kids, and if one of them came up to me and said, "Do you care about me?" I would never dream of saying, "I care about all my students," to that kid. I would instead say something like, "Of course I care about you. I also care about everyone in your class." Maybe it's a really tiny arbitrary thing, but to me there was just something about that particular wording that felt really wrong to me.

I think this is the crux of it. The difference is you're not a child, and your interaction is within a therapy relationship. But your lingering feeling of dissatisfaction about her response is very much as you would imagine the child in your example feeling. That's something to explore.

Actually I think maybe the issue isn't that "when she refuses to tell me she cares about me even after I told her I need to hear it, this makes me doubt all of her caring gestures, and it makes me feel like maybe I can’t trust her or like I got tricked;" I think the issue is probably that the fact that I'm NOT supposed to call between sessions or do the things that elicited caring responses makes me feel like they weren't actually caring responses; either I manipulated them or I misinterpreted them.

If she had said, "Yes, I called you back between sessions because I cared about you [or even just because I wanted to help you]," that would have felt better to me. But the "I care about all of my clients" suggested to me that maybe I shouldn't have put her in a situation of having to respond to me in a way that would come across as caring, or like that wasn't really a caring response but just the way I read it (I mean, I did pay her for the phone session, and while it might have been a caring gesture, it might have also been a 'here's a way to make an extra $110 this week' gesture).

So maybe it's just that it's making me question my interpretation of her past actions and wondering if my own stuff is making me think she cares more than she does...

Definitely true...but emotionally sometimes I am that kid and need a little bit of extra care/understanding around that. And I think it would be the same with high school students - I don't think any high school teacher whose students asked if they were cared about would respond that (s)he cares about all the students in his/her class. And I was in high school less than a year ago, so...that?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect to hear 'I care about you!' from a therapist and don't think it's a childish need at all. Heck I wouldn't want to work with a therapist that doesn't care about me as an individual- or would refuse to try to get there. Geez. Now, 'I love you!' is a different story, but I won't get into that.

This all just feels like withholding and rejection to me... And Yearning please don't take any of this personally. Agreed with others that it's the therapist's issue.

And let me just add to this... Ask your therapist how she would feel if you told her 'I care about all the people I employ' if the question was reversed. I would put money that if it were true, you'd be tagged as 'resistant to the process', having 'issues trusting' 'issues opening up to others' or 'issues connecting' and so on. Such a horrible double standard.