Talked more about attachment/boundaries with T and things somehow got even worse

Sure. But it's still a need that can't be satisfied on demand. I suspect that if she did respond as you imagine you'd want, you might doubt it.

Is it that you feel you broke a boundary and so on some level think you deserve punishment? Is that what leads you to doubt the authenticity of her caring response after those times? I don't understand why you're working so hard to discredit her caring based upon the circumstances that provoked it. Why are they tied together? I just don't see any evidence that she's easily manipulated, so I wonder if this isn't about some other need to doubt/not accept her caring, or feel uncomfortable with it?

Yeah, I think it feels like this is bringing up other stuff about other people being withholding/rejection, which is probably my own projection onto her...part of me does feel like it's wrong to expect/want/need care, and part of me is being reminded of other people (parents) not meeting my need to feel cared about/understood/seen. Which is actually my issue, not hers, and maybe something we need to discuss about next session.

It sort of reminds me of when I was maybe six or seven and my mother would be upset at me for some reason and I would want to mend things with her so I would go to try to give her hugs and she would physically push me away and refuse to even speak to me because she was so upset, when all I really wanted was for her to reassure me that she still loved me and cared about me, and when I asked her or tried to elicit that response she would accuse me of trying to manipulate her...maybe it's bringing up some stuff around that...

Interesting, but I highly doubt it matters to her whether I care about HER or not. My money's just as good either way, and if I'm making progress, I don't know why it would be relevant to her. That's the issue with therapy; the imbalance. I need her more than she needs me, so I care more than she does and that's the reality of any therapeutic relationship.

I think this^ is huge--I hope you can bring it up with her in this new context.

Yeah, it's probably more that I felt like I broke a boundary so then I expected her to be upset about me, but she wasn't; instead she responded in a really caring way and said she was happy to be there for me notwithstanding the "no contact outside of sessions" rule (which she never really explicitly stated, but it was implied). But now she's sort of backtracking and saying it was okay that one time when I called but don't call again, which sort of just doesn't sit right with me for some reason, because I think I only really started trusting her when she did call me back between sessions because that felt like such a caring gesture. So it feels like she's saying, "I cared once, but I won't continue to care if it keeps happening." Sort of like the care is conditional?

I'm not so sure. Wanting to be cared about is a basic human need. Especially in the intimacy of a therapy relationship. Outside of my therapy, I like to know that people i see a lot - my friends, coworkers, boss etc - care about me.... I don't mean in a nurturing cuddling way, but in a 'Im really rooting for you and hope you do well in life' kind of way. Or worse but still okay caring in a 'Id be really upset if you got hit by a bus' kind of way.

There's so much here to bring up with her. Clearly, some past trust issues were stirred up and reflect conditional approval in the past. Really--these last couple of posts have very important stuff to process within the context of your interaction with your T that I hope you can look at it in session.

But isn't the therapist's mandate to keep their own needs (however basic and however human) out of the therapy session and not use their clients to fulfill them? I think for her, me telling her I don't care about her would elicit a shrug, whereas her partner/sibling/boss/friend/whoever else telling her they don't care about her might be upsetting.

I don't think a therapist can just shut down those needs. We just might not be privy to them. Isn't that why most therapists go into the profession? To help others, make connections, and feel appreciated? The fact that therapists burn out from difficult clients and not feeling like they are really helping anyone is telling.

I think it would elicit more than a shrug just to explore the origin of the "not caring" response. But fundamentally, those feelings usually have roots in transference, and not all therapy involves , or needs to involve, transference.

It probably is important to discuss this stuff with her...but I also know that whenever we talk about boundary stuff it just goes in circles and doesn't get anywhere and I get upset and she gets upset (I think - well, defensive). I think that maybe after a point these discussions aren't even really productive; she can't meet my need so maybe I just need to accept that and deal with it instead of going back to it...I don't know.

Maybe I can just pretend this whole conversation that upset me so much never actually happened and go back to telling her stuff like I was before and just not worry about it...like this transference stuff isn't actually a big thing in our relationship generally, and it does sort of feel like I'm being punished because if I hadn't asked her to clarify her boundaries re. calling, I probably could have been secure in the knowledge that I could call if I needed to but wouldn't have actually done so very often, if ever, and she would have been fine with it and I would have been fine with it.

But the fact that I brought the issue up, when it was very hard for me, and I was worried that she would then withdraw the "care," which is pretty much exactly what happened...yeah, okay, I definitely do need to discuss this with her.

Yep. This is where the rubber meets the road.

Maybe I'm just worried that if I told her it felt like she was caring, then withdrawing care, I would be met with a response that would feel shaming to me...I feel like that's where my hesitance about that comes from...because it's not really a rational thing.

I think if your focus is on your perception of your feelings, rather than your feelings as a reaction to her actions, that's unlikely. Kind of a "I don't understand why sometimes I trust my feeling of being cared for, and other times I distrust that feeling."

Hugs to you, Yearning. I just read through this whole thread, and personally, I need to feel that genuine caring from a T, also. I wrote a list one time of qualities that I look for in a therapist. Not everyone has the same needs, but I certainly can identify with yours. Here are a couple of things on my list of things I look for:

Someone who genuinely cares about me and likes me (I can always tell when there is a real connection vs. seeing me as "just another client"). I need to feel that personal connection, like I matter to them.

Someone who accepts me no matter what I'm feeling or no matter what I say or how I say it.

Someone who knows their own boundaries and makes those clear to me, instead of not having boundaries and then blaming me for crossing them.

Someone who can listen to me when I'm angry with them, and not react right away.

Someone who is available in case of crisis, or even "mini-crisis".

There are other things on my list, but these seemed to be similar to what I hear you saying. These are my needs; not everyone will agree that I should "need" or "expect" these qualities in a T, but they are not me. If I am hiring a therapist, and sharing and baring my soul, then I want my T to exhibit these qualities so that I feel safe and valued. I would be troubled by a T's defensiveness around these, also. That T would just not be the right "fit" for me. And I'm a lot older than you! I don't think these needs are necessarily "childish". These are things that I need when I am making myself vulnerable. And I don't care if others are OK with that or not. I hope you can figure out what your personal "must-haves" are, and that you will be gentle with yourself.

Yearning, do you know how amazing you are? You confronted this very awkward, painful subject with your Therapist despite knowing that her reaction might not be very good. That's a scary thing to do. I am nearly double your age and i'm not sure i could have done it. You are 18 years old and your understanding and reaction of what's going on shows a maturity than many people who are a few years older than you could take note from. I hope you can be proud of how you're tackling this.

To me, i think the problem isn't why you feel this way, or what your T stated re her boundaries but in her delivery of the information. I feel like she's being quite defensive and withholding. " I care about all my clients" is a B.S generic one size fits all statement that keeps her safe and keeps you at a distance. Whether that's right or wrong, or my stuff coming into it or not, that's how I experience it and probably how you are experiencing it.
And since it is YOUR therapy, it's your experience that matters, not your T's and if you are telling her you are experiencing a lack of personal care or warmth from her actions and her reactions to what you're saying then she is duty bound to be curious about that, to get in the trenches with you and see things from your perspective, to find out what's behind this need you have to be closer to her, to explore it all WITH you. Instead of making you feel like you're baring your soul to her thru a sanitised glass wall.

Would it really have killed her to have just said " yes, i care about you Yearning, i'm here WITH you thru this and we'll get thru it all together." ????? That would have been the human response. And then by explaining why she can't be there for you in the way you want in a gentle and compassionate manner she could still have upheld her boundaries but made you feel cared for and safe with her. Two birds, one stone.

Her reactions to this are truly crap. And i can see you trying to find a way to deny your own need so that you can stay with her and keep working with her and you are trying to take care of her feelings the same way you did with your mom when she'd push you away. This is so wrong. You are supposed to be the one whose needs are being met, the one who is taken care of not your T's. This issue has brought up a wealth of material that is really important and could really aid your healing process by being curious about how you are interpreting her and the needs it's bringing up for you and instead your therapist is stonewalling you and shaming you ( probably not her intention to shame you but nevertheless that's the effect she's having with her words). I feel really angry on your behalf.

Hi Yearning. Just wanted to echo what Asia said - you are handling this so well. I am 45 and in a very similar situation and I know how much it hurts. I have gained so much from reading this post. I can relate to all the posts and it has really made me think about some deep issues I know I need to address too. I wish you well. You sound amazing. This is such a hard area to navigate with a therapist. Just wanted to say thanks to all - this thread has really made me think. xxx

I think her boundaries probably include not getting emotionally attached to her clients or not giving verbal affirmations of personal care and stuff like that. Like she said to me when I asked that it was her own boundary and that she didn't say stuff like that to clients, and pretty much she's sorry she can't meet my need, but she can't meet my need. And she does have the right to that boundary and to have it respected, just as I and every other human being in the world want our boundaries respected when we articulate them.

So then I feel guilty for trying to make her cross that boundary and not respecting it, since I thought about what it would be like if I were in her position and how uncomfortable that would make me and how I would probably respond in pretty much the same way.

Ts are human. That's why we don't do therapy with computers (or why computers would be pretty ineffective even if you could program them correctly...).

So I feel like maybe when I see her I will just apologize for not respecting her boundary and tell her I will try to do better in the future, and then mention what is probably the real issue, which is that it felt like she was giving me care and then withdrawing it, and that was my "punishment" for even bringing up the issue of boundaries to begin with, which then makes me not want to bring up the issue of boundaries in the future.

But on I will go, though the weather be foul. On I will go, though the Hakken-Kraks howl. Onward up many a frightening creek, though my arms may get sore and my sneakers may leak. On and on I will hike, and I know I'll hike far, and face up to my problems, whatever they are!

YES, YES, YES. That's her mandate - not just her job. to keep her stuff out of the way!

Did you discuss this with your t? Because i dont know what you mean when you say you need her to care, but i do understand the need to process this stuff about your mom. Also, you said you dont think your t cares if you care about her - that sounds like she is wearing your mothers shoes again. All this gets in the way of you receiving her care "signals".

With all due respect, I don't think that's the situation at all. I don't think she cares about whether her clients "care about" her although she probably does care whether her clients find her "compassionate" or "attuned" or "effective". Her clients don't exist to meet her emotional need to be cared about. That's all I meant by "she doesn't care if I care about her". A mother, conversely, does care very much whether her child loves her as much as she loves her child. I don't think I'm using T as a mother figure or projecting that onto her at all; I know this because of several past relationships with Ts didn't work for me because there was too much maternal transference going on there and I knew it. I recognize the signs and they aren't happening here, or at least not nearly to the extent of being harmful.

And re. Her caring signals, that's sort of the issue, because I was receiving what I thought were a LOT of caring signals, but her telling me explicitly that she doesn't care about me individually but cares about all of her clients as a collective is what makes me go back and question whether I was interpreting those "caring signals" correctly or not. I mean, either she does care about me but is refusing to state that upfront, which feels dishonest, or she doesn't care about me and I was just reading "caring" when I should have read "her doing her job".

I felt like she did care a lot and probably still does in her own way; my issue isn't that I don't think she cares. My issue was just that I was feeling like she was withholding from me the reassurance that I needed in that moment when I said, "Those gestures felt like caring gestures," and her response was, "I care about all my clients." But those are her boundaries and she has the right to set them where she feels comfortable; it's my job to respect that.

Yearning, I had a similar issue with my last T. She was good, competent, and a caring individual, but she wasn't the right person for me. We both agreed that she really couldn't give me what I needed. It was very difficult for me because I really didn't want to restart the process all over with someone else, and I kept trying to make her good enough, but it was too much of me trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

So while I was seeing her I started interviewing other T's. At first I didn't tell her, but then I felt like I was cheating so I finally confessed. She handled it really well, and she actually gave me a referral to the the T I am now seeing and have been for over 4 years.

By finding my almost-perfect fit, I have really come a long way.....with still a bit to go!

Good luck

My criticism isn't of her boundaries but of her delivery of them. She has reacted somewhat defensively and she seems to have lacked any curiosity as to what the deeper meaning of her actions have been for you. Rigid boundaries are just as unhealthy as poor boundaries. I don't see anywhere in what you've written that you disrespected her boundary, you questioned what her boundary was and requested she make it clear to you; which she is yet to do. At what point did you make her cross her own boundary?
From the information you have given here, you told her you were unsure of where her boundaries lay re communication outside of session. You informed her that you felt like you need precise guidelines about when and what is appropriate or inappropriate to call with. That is all GOOD and very RESPECTABLE behaviour.

I will reiterate once more, YOU as the client do not need to worry about making the therapist uncomfortable or about accepting their human-ness to the detriment of your own. After-all, it's your human-ness that is paramount, it is you issues that you are paying $110 a week to care about, not hers. That money is why her issues are kept out the room, it's all about you in there. You seem to be putting her needs before your own, why? And long-term that isn't going to help you anyway, you'll just end up bitter that she isn't meeting a need within you and it will stay unresolved. That isn't therapeutic.

I'm not sure what you think you need to apologise for? It's great that you've worked out what's underlying the need for her to care but if she'd dealt with it better, you wouldn't have had to worked it out alone thru a forum. This work should have been recognised and done in session.

So what do I do for next session? How do I bring up the stuff I need to bring up without making it a repeat of the past two sessions?

print this thread out and give her it! Or some of it that explains how you are feeling. If you're not getting thru to her verbally then maybe her reading it would help?