As we start talking more about trauma and dissociation, I am growing more concerned about contaminating my therapist with the blackness I carry around inside my soul. My experience on this site and in certain places in my real life has shown me that even when I am trying to be nice, apparently the blackness leaks through and I am misunderstood, or perhaps people just see through and see that I am basically a horrible person. I am reluctant to have him see anymore than he has already because he will know I am disgusting and also, it does feel like I contaminate people when I let too much of myself show.

Anyone else have that anxiety? How were you able to overcome it if you did?

[Leah123]

One of the things that keeps me from suffering that anxiety is knowing that the intensity of our experience is never as intense externally as internally.

As for anxiety around being misunderstood, I've come to grips with that through successful therapy: experiencing the reality that I definitely will be misunderstood, BUT that we'll have the opportunity to work it out, it won't rupture the relationship beyond repair and I won't be abandoned for saying or doing something in a less than perfect way has been a good experience.

So, seeing that I have come across differently than I intended or acted uglier than I would have wanted, but finding that life goes on and it can be worked through well has been the simple key for me.

[stopdog]

I don't believe one person can contaminate other people in the manner you describe as a general rule and certainly, to me, not a therapist by engaging in therapy with them.

[granite1]

I totally have this anxiety. and have not gotten over it at all but the last time I told my T something completely disgusting she was still the same T and seems to think the same of me . I have not discussed it any further at all im scared to push it also. but maybe the only way to see that this feeling is not true is to share the yuck and see that it doesn't change how he sees you over time . easier said then done . sorry not more helpful

[archipelago]

I have felt this type of thing and am sorry to hear that you are feeling it and so intensely. First when I was doing intensive trauma work there were times when I feel what I was saying was too awful or bad to even continue; I myself felt monstrous at times. It is part of the effects of certain kinds of trauma in certain kinds of people. In other words, it is not just you. And you are not alone. And it is not your fault either.

But back to the way my therapist handled it. After one really intense session, he grabbed my hand, had this urgent, alert look, and said something like you've got to get as much of this poison out of you and into me. So he actually articulated that idea as a positive thing.

I felt weird about that and later said that something like what you are saying here, that I didn't want to poison him with my toxic stuff. He told me that he appreciated that I was showing compassion for him, but that I didn't need to worry about him. So he was saying that he could tolerate what was happening and that even though he said it was poison, he didn't say or think that I was contaminating him. It's like it was just poisonous to me, but once out of me, it became neutralized or something, if that makes sense.

So that's how I dealt with it. The other thing I did was try to understand how trauma works in my type of situation, which was being too young to understand. There is a famous article written by Ferenczi, who was the first to acknowledge the real effects of trauma in childhood. He describes all the different things that seem so hard to understand in really clear ways. Like that children blame themselves and often feel "bad" in some way or other, even to extreme degrees. He said children do this because it is easier to feel like what is happening is somehow due to them, because otherwise it doesn't make any sense and is too painful to bear. It is less unbearable to feel you are the cause and bad in some way. Then you can feel like you have some power when in fact in the situation you have no power.

Also he says that children are tender in ways that adults aren't. He considered an adult's taking advantage of this tenderness and manipulating one of the most cruel things possible. That how serious he considered the impact to be. The child at the time often continues to be tender and seek tenderness in response, even if the trauma is ongoing. So at the very deepest root of that "badness" or "contamination" is something very tender and worth protecting.

[HazelGirl]

Something I try to remember: feelings are not facts.

[ThisWayOut]

battle that anxiety almost daily. sometimes it's less intense, but other times it flares up. past T's have proven it false at times, but I still have difficulty taking that in much. current t says she will not think differently of me, and has not shown me yet that anything I have said has impacted her negatively or changed the way she interacts with me to anything negative... so I guess she's right... for me it's just going through experiences that prove that fear wrong over & over again...

[PeeJay]

You're one of my favorite people on these boards MKAC!

Such deep feelings of blackness and unworthiness need to be countered, if not through therapy, than by SOMETHING. Because they are simply not true, and until you believe it in your heart of hearts, you aren't *healed.*

We all fall short in some areas.

When I look at what's going on in the world, with the killing and gross violence and horrible human rights abuses, I think that there is a little bit of darkness in all of us and a LOT of darkness in some of us.

But, I'd reserve the worst descriptions for people who are committing atrocities against humanity.

Of course, when you are in the middle of it -- feeling awful and worthless and misunderstood -- it is little comfort to hear, "You're not so bad. You didn't ____ anybody."

I know that. But when I feel the most worthless, I've needed other people to help me out of that spot. People who can attest to the basic goodness in me, to help me see it for myself, have been Godsends in my life. And then once I'm out of that dark unworthy place, I can be more objective and truly look around and say, "I am trying my best and I'm not so bad."

You're not so bad, either.

[NowhereUSA]

i feel like a terrible person, like i suck the life out of everyone around me and 'contaminate' them.

idk. my t tries to work on this with me.

within therapy, i decided i was going to try to see if i could piss him off. so far, he's handled everything skillfully. i like challenges, so he told he i couldn't piss him off/make him hate me and now i want to try.

i don't know if that would help you. i have an irritating need to be right. and i'm sure i'm a miserable person :P

Yes, I've had that anxiety whenever I've shared things about myself that feel dark or shameful. It doesn't happen very often that I've had a good result from it, but I have found that a healthy person will not respond in any other way than with empathy and understanding. On a rare occasions, this has been a therapist (I haven't had the best luck with that), but the best kind is from a friend who says "I care about you no matter what you tell me about yourself." And when they mean it, you feel it, and it's healing.

I have always appreciated your insights and comments on this forum, so I'm sorry to hear that you've absorbed any ill feelings because that's not at all what you give off. We each have to take in what gives us energy and life and leave the rest.

Not necessarily inner blackness, but an introject that's split off/dissociated as an inner sadistic monster that abuses me and tortures me.

Your situation sounds like the same context, but diffuse instead of split. I'm hopeful our therapists can take those projections in and transform them into something good that we can then introject and assimilate into ourselves.

People projected their own shame and hate and badness into you. But it was never supposed to be owned by you. I hope you can give those bad feelings to your therapist.

[Detia]

I have. I've gotten over it with these thoughts so far but it IS still a CONSTANT work in progress.

Everyone is responsible for their own emotions.

I can accept that people need to do what is best for them, even if they have to stop speaking with me. It sucks and hurts but I will live and respect their needs.

I can improve the situation by learning about healthy boundaries and encouraging those around me to exercise their own need for healthy boundaries.

How others react is not necessarily a reflection of myself, but of their current place in life.

If another has a problem with me, it is THEIR problem, not mine.

The emotions and well being of others are not my responsibility. It is their responsibility to tell me if there is a problem, or if what I am doing harms them.

It will be OK.

Everything is temporary.

I am making progress. This is my journey. There will be good parts and bad parts, easy parts and difficult parts.

I will honor and appreciate those who are there for me. I will forgive and let go those who are not.

I can accept that no one person can be there for me in every situation.

Some people can be there for me in one situation but cannot be there for me in a different situation and that is OK.

I am making progress.

I come first.

[growlycat]

I have worried that my anxiety "infects" my therapist.

He keeps trying to assure me that it does not.

I try to remind myself that T's practice self care in order to maintain their own equilibrium.

It is a worry worth bringing up with T, just to get confirmation that he is OK with anything you need to share.

[blur]

shame isn't contagious, mkac.

I have this horrible anxiety about contamination and toxicity and being evil. I saw a therapist for seven years and eventually I do believe it leaked onto him and he wouldn't see me anymore. The fear for me is very, very real. I am seeing someone now and it is terrifying. I have told him stuff, really bad stuff, and so far, so good, but with me it happened before so I have no hope it won't happen again. I think most therapists can handle it though unlike my first one.

Originally Posted by skies_

Your situation sounds like the same context, but diffuse instead of split. I'm hopeful our therapists can take those projections in and transform them into something good that we can then introject and assimilate into ourselves.

People projected their own shame and hate and badness into you. But it was never supposed to be owned by you. I hope you can give those bad feelings to your therapist.

Yes, we discussed just this week how the shame and blame are just this fog that I live in all the time. It is this constant background noise. I do NOT want to give those bad feelings to my T. That is my fear that I will give them to him or they will infect him in some way. I know it's not reasonable, but ...

Originally Posted by granite1

I totally have this anxiety. and have not gotten over it at all but the last time I told my T something completely disgusting she was still the same T and seems to think the same of me . I have not discussed it any further at all im scared to push it also. but maybe the only way to see that this feeling is not true is to share the yuck and see that it doesn't change how he sees you over time . easier said then done . sorry not more helpful

For you, Granite, I can totally see why what you told her didn't change anything. It's different when it's me. I know you know that feeling, unfortunately. T does seem very consistent no matter what I tell him (as long as it's not something about HIM ). Intellectually, I know I can probably tell him everything he won't ACT any differently, but I do think he will think about me differently. I don't see how he wouldn't.

Originally Posted by archipelago

I have felt this type of thing and am sorry to hear that you are feeling it and so intensely. First when I was doing intensive trauma work there were times when I feel what I was saying was too awful or bad to even continue; I myself felt monstrous at times. It is part of the effects of certain kinds of trauma in certain kinds of people. In other words, it is not just you. And you are not alone. And it is not your fault either.

But back to the way my therapist handled it. After one really intense session, he grabbed my hand, had this urgent, alert look, and said something like you've got to get as much of this poison out of you and into me. So he actually articulated that idea as a positive thing.

Yeah, I HATE that thought. I don't want to put that poison into anyone!

Originally Posted by archipelago

I felt weird about that and later said that something like what you are saying here, that I didn't want to poison him with my toxic stuff. He told me that he appreciated that I was showing compassion for him, but that I didn't need to worry about him. So he was saying that he could tolerate what was happening and that even though he said it was poison, he didn't say or think that I was contaminating him. It's like it was just poisonous to me, but once out of me, it became neutralized or something, if that makes sense.

So that's how I dealt with it. The other thing I did was try to understand how trauma works in my type of situation, which was being too young to understand. There is a famous article written by Ferenczi, who was the first to acknowledge the real effects of trauma in childhood. He describes all the different things that seem so hard to understand in really clear ways. Like that children blame themselves and often feel "bad" in some way or other, even to extreme degrees. He said children do this because it is easier to feel like what is happening is somehow due to them, because otherwise it doesn't make any sense and is too painful to bear. It is less unbearable to feel you are the cause and bad in some way. Then you can feel like you have some power when in fact in the situation you have no power.

Also he says that children are tender in ways that adults aren't. He considered an adult's taking advantage of this tenderness and manipulating one of the most cruel things possible. That how serious he considered the impact to be. The child at the time often continues to be tender and seek tenderness in response, even if the trauma is ongoing. So at the very deepest root of that "badness" or "contamination" is something very tender and worth protecting.

Intellectually, I get all of that. I have read the articles. I started reading Courage to Heal and several other books. But somehow I cannot make it apply to me. I was apparently the smartest ****ing five year old on the planet and I should have somehow figured out a way to stop the CSA from happening. The other stuff, neglect and physical abuse, started literally when I was in the cradle. I get stuck in this loop of how basically everyone reacts to infants with instinctive care. How gross and horrible of a baby must I have been for my mother to hate me even as an infant? It really feeds into this sense I was just somehow innately horrible from the beginning.

I really appreciate the list, Detia! I will start trying to repeat some of those.

GC, he and I have discussed it. He keeps assuring me I am not contaminating. Puzzle, my T has also told me he is not at risk of a burnout, but I do worry about the situation you describe. On those rare occasions in the past when I let my guard down some, invariably people would retreat from me, or something bad would happen.

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by Detia

I have. I've gotten over it with these thoughts so far but it IS still a CONSTANT work in progress.

Everyone is responsible for their own emotions.

I can accept that people need to do what is best for them, even if they have to stop speaking with me. It sucks and hurts but I will live and respect their needs.

I can improve the situation by learning about healthy boundaries and encouraging those around me to exercise their own need for healthy boundaries.

How others react is not necessarily a reflection of myself, but of their current place in life.

If another has a problem with me, it is THEIR problem, not mine.

The emotions and well being of others are not my responsibility. It is their responsibility to tell me if there is a problem, or if what I am doing harms them.

It will be OK.

Everything is temporary.

I am making progress. This is my journey. There will be good parts and bad parts, easy parts and difficult parts.

I will honor and appreciate those who are there for me. I will forgive and let go those who are not.

I can accept that no one person can be there for me in every situation.

Some people can be there for me in one situation but cannot be there for me in a different situation and that is OK.

I am making progress.

I come first.

Detia,

Thanks LOADS for the expressions you shared. They are so healthy. So much of what you expressed relates to issues I need to work on. I think I will print out and save your post. Thanks again!

[archipelago]

When there's neglect in the picture and it connects to a fundamental abandonment by the primary person, the mother, things are really really complicated and hard. Apparently some feel that neglect is more damaging and difficult to resolve. It affects development more and is a non-event so hard to work through, hard to even grasp.

As you say, you can't even understand how a mother could reject an infant, assuming no one would do that therefore you must have been horrible to begin with. Well, my mother did the same to me, so much so that even my therapist was having a really hard time trying to get how any human being could do that. But ask around here. From threads I've seen here, like on "the mother hole," it seems to be a something that many have experienced. It has powerful and long term effects. And because it is so inhuman it sometimes results in taking that inside when in fact it was not and never our fault.

Like many others here, MKAC, I've felt and sometimes still feel this way. I've read your posts over time and it sounds as though you have a very good therapist and a solid connection. I would talk about your feelings about contamination with him. I'm guessing he's heard this before and will work to reassure you that he can and will take care of himself while supporting you through the process. I think getting through this feeling is a process rather than a single fix.

>>Archipelago: There is a famous article written by Ferenczi, who was the first to acknowledge the real effects of trauma in childhood<<

Archipelago, I love Ferenczi's essay, Confusion of Tongues. I also read a fantastic biography of him. I found it fascinating that he and Jung were, in a sense, such ardent and loyal students of Freud until they were both forced to find their own way because they dared to question some of Freud's ideas and theories. I found it so sad that Freud deserted Ferenczi so harshly when Ferenczi actually wanted to simply expand on Freud's ideas. The need for total power and control can sure destroy relationships!

[stopdog]

I do think there is a difference in contamination and pissing someone off or being misunderstood or having different agendas or divisive and so forth. Someone doing something at me with good intention does not necessarily mean I won't get pissed off for any number of reasons that would be valid for me and the validity of my response is not offset by the good intention. But I don't feel contaminated when I am pissed off. I might choose to engage less with someone who I found highly annoying or who I found off-putting, but again - not contaminated by them.
I have experienced situations where I thought I was being quite kind and sensitive only to find I was received as cold and unfeeling.
I don't think I was contaminating anyone - just that there was a mis-match in communication.
(And this is why my partner calls me Sheldon)

[pbutton]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

The other stuff, neglect and physical abuse, started literally when I was in the cradle. I get stuck in this loop of how basically everyone reacts to infants with instinctive care. How gross and horrible of a baby must I have been for my mother to hate me even as an infant? It really feeds into this sense I was just somehow innately horrible from the beginning.

Or your mother could have had different instinctual reactions because she is mentally ill. Which she certainly is.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I do think there is a difference in contamination and pissing someone off or being misunderstood or having different agendas or divisive and so forth. Someone doing something at me with good intention does not necessarily mean I won't get pissed off for any number of reasons that would be valid for me and the validity of my response is not offset by the good intention. But I don't feel contaminated when I am pissed off. I might choose to engage less with someone who I found highly annoying or who I found off-putting, but again - not contaminated by them.

Thats a good point - just that healthy people have good boundaries, and hopefully our ts' arent so permeable and they practice good self-care, altho that would be after the fact. But the boundary, during the - i want to say confrontation - thats why i cant see my family right now; they DID always stomp all over my boundaries. Until i can hold that psychological boundary myself, it needs to be a physical one. Maybe that is part of what the t hour is about - we practice containment. Anyway, good thread. I like Ferenczi too - i know he did some bad stuff? But there is some really good stuff too.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by pbutton

Or your mother could have had different instinctual reactions because she is mentally ill. Which she certainly is.

I agree with this. Cuz i look at my baby pictures and there was nothing wrong with me. I remember various aunts trying to give her parenting advice at different times, and she just wouldnt listen. Not to my dad either, about anything. Even i tried to give her parenting advice! She just had to win every argument, even if she had to change sides to do it (like if you changed your mind and agreed with her, she then would take the other side). And she says by her winning, she was teaching me to win every argument. I dont know if thats mentally ill or just narcicissm. I dont care that thats misspelled!!