[archipelago]

It's a general question I guess though I am having a specific problem with this that I have recognized before but it is really clear right now.

In the process of doing therapy, I've learned about how to talk things through, even if difficult, and get to an understanding. It may be hard for various reasons, but the result tends to make it worth the effort.

When I have tried to do this outside therapy with people who have not been exposed to therapy or who are not open to this sort of thing, I've been very frustrated, sometimes upset, and usually disappointed. It just doesn't seem to work out that well. Sometimes I even regret trying because it makes things worse.

I don't know if it is just my own experience, and if so what I need to do about it. Or maybe others have had this happen too?

Or maybe others have had positive results? Then maybe I could learn something about how that happens.

[HazelGirl]

Some have become easier and some have become worse. It seems that those with whom it becomes easier are healthier people and those whom it becomes worse are not very healthy. At least, that's my experience.

[archipelago]

Thanks, HG. I can see that healthy people would respond better. For me, it is not exactly a question of health per se, but personal style I guess. Many people I know are intellectually oriented and though I thought this meant they were good about internal things, it turns out that they are good at thinking but not feeling. They are just blocked. I don't necessarily think of them as less healthy, just not oriented toward emotions.

With a few, it is also an issue of age. People are pretty set in their ways. They see a discussion about some pattern of interaction as an attack on them, feel criticized, and get defensive and sometimes aggressive. It is really hard to explain that talking about things to improve ways of interacting is a positive thing. I just don't know if there are ways of doing this that I could learn about so it might have a possibility of going better.

[unaluna]

I think mostly what you can do is take care of your own half of the conversation, and hope they follow your lead. Thats what i did with my cousin last week. I tried to be open and honest and even apologized, but she had her agenda and was insisting on it, along with apologizing over and over. So i set a boundary. I asked her to reconsider what i said. I didnt criticize anything she said, except to ask, why didnt anything i said "count"?

I think I agree with HazelGirl - and in addition, I have become better at articulating what I need from a relationship. Not that I've become pushy or arrogant (I hope!) but today, for example, I was able to tell a friend who had done something hurtful that while I knew that they did not mean for me to feel bad, I did feel hurt; that I was not mad at them, but could they please be more careful in the future. That's something I don't think I could have done a couple of years ago - back then, the notion of telling somebody that they'd hurt me was completely unrealistic. And my friend reacted well and we had a long talk about it (mind you, this is a person who is also in therapy...) and our friendship is probably stronger for it.

[archipelago]

Thanks. Yeah, I guess we can only take care of our own side, make boundaries if needed, and checkin as you say hankster.

Mastadon, yes I understand. I too have learned more about how to be in a relationship in the first place and how to take up space in whatever way is right for that relationship. Still your example is the kind of thing that ends up going wrong for me. It's great that it worked out for you and even led to a discussion. When I point out that something hurt me, the person tends to take it as a criticism of them so doesn't react well at all. You did add that this person was in therapy. I do think that makes a difference. People who have had therapy seem a little bit more open to having this type of discussion.

[HazelGirl]

Originally Posted by archipelago

Thanks, HG. I can see that healthy people would respond better. For me, it is not exactly a question of health per se, but personal style I guess. Many people I know are intellectually oriented and though I thought this meant they were good about internal things, it turns out that they are good at thinking but not feeling. They are just blocked. I don't necessarily think of them as less healthy, just not oriented toward emotions.

With a few, it is also an issue of age. People are pretty set in their ways. They see a discussion about some pattern of interaction as an attack on them, feel criticized, and get defensive and sometimes aggressive. It is really hard to explain that talking about things to improve ways of interacting is a positive thing. I just don't know if there are ways of doing this that I could learn about so it might have a possibility of going better.

Umm, no. Those people sound unhealthy.

I do feel that I've gotten better at communicating in different kinds of relationships due to therapy. I have always been good at listening to other people and helping out when asked, but I really lacked good skills in the area of expressing my own needs and boundaries. Frankly, I'd allow people to walk all over me while I smiled and gritted my teeth.

I was one of those people you mentioned in your other post, who lived inside my head, jamming intellectual information into every nook and cranny; although I was probably a bit more "unhealthy" than the run of the mill clueless person. None of the information I got from clinical books, essays, self-help books was really helpful to me in handling my relationships. I just seemed to stumble around in confusion. In fact, I was totally out of touch with my feelings. When I finally realized that no one was going to give me that elusive manual of how to live life and needed some help figuring things out, I began to actually make progress in therapy.

I was perhaps too categorical in my previous post. In that one specific relationship, therapy has helped (and that's worth a lot!) Other relationships have not become easier to deal with and in some instances, it has become more difficult. I'm not sure that it has to do with the other person, though.

[archipelago]

Thanks. It's interesting to hear about other people's experiences. It seems, to generalize, that people feel better about their side of the relationship, which is cool. I was totally clueless before I started therapy. And even after I started to get a clue, it still took time before I got anywhere.

I guess I don't necessarily take people that are intellectually focused as unhealthy. That I value emotional awareness and abilities to express and contain them is something I have developed. Others may not value these things or may not want to develop this aspect of themselves for whatever reasons. In the cases I'm thinking of all the people are seniors so expecting them to change so much when they've spent a very long time doing things another way seems like it may be too much to ask for. Again, though I don't want to be that way myself, I'm not sure that I can say they are unhealthy. They learned how to be in the world when the world was different. It is as much a cultural difference as a personal thing. Perhaps that is why it just feels so frustrating. I want to be able to relate in a way that to me feels more open and flexible, but I can't expect others to feel that way too.

[stopdog]

It has had no effect either way

Originally Posted by archipelago

In the cases I'm thinking of all the people are seniors so expecting them to change so much when they've spent a very long time doing things another way seems like it may be too much to ask for. Again, though I don't want to be that way myself, I'm not sure that I can say they are unhealthy. They learned how to be in the world when the world was different. It is as much a cultural difference as a personal thing. Perhaps that is why it just feels so frustrating. I want to be able to relate in a way that to me feels more open and flexible, but I can't expect others to feel that way too.

Oh, I forgot to mention in my other post that as a person who is pretty dang close to the "senior" range, I really don't find seniors any more stuck in their ways than middle agers, young adults and youngsters when it comes to relationship issues I feel that it's important to process and see all sides of the discussion--not just my side. And I know plenty of seniors who act in a similar way . . . And, I also know plenty of young people who are so stuck in being right that they can't get beyond, "How can you think that way? I'm right and you're wrong and I'm not going to discuss it anymore." :::::stomp! stomp! stomp!:::: Dealing with relationships effectively is a skill. Some people learn it at a young age, some in middle age, some in their "golden years" and some NEVER.

Of course, some of us older people kind of get stuck in a rut when it comes to our routines. I sure get cranky when someone bothers me in the morning when I'm having my coffee and reading PC

[archipelago]

You are right of course. I was trying to cut some of the people in their 80s a bit of slack. Maybe they just don't see it as important, have better things to do with their time, and it has nothing to do with what I think.

I think therapy has really improved the quality of my relationships overall. However, I think individual relationships have suffered because I am not as accepting of unhealthy behaviors or ways of interacting. I know my first time through therapy, NONE of my friendships survived. It was horrible to realize that so many people were my "friends" only because I let them walk all over me or take advantage of me in various ways.

T recently introduced me to Transactional Analysis, and I think this theory has helped me to better understand how I approach real life human relationships, and in a sense why I have always found them difficult. I think it will be a slow process but I hope that understanding my own behaviour can help me to improve relationships in the future.

[The_little_didgee]

It has improved certain relationships because I now make an effort to communicate and use more perspective taking. I'm a lot more honest and direct with others. My tolerance level has also increased so now I am able to put up with people and their (annoying) ways. There is still a lot for me to learn about socializing and relationships.

My relationship with my mother is so much better. Our conversations have a lot more depth which I love even though she talks way too much about her grandchildren.

[Lauliza]

For me, therapy has made it easier to deal with relationships. I think I communicate my needs more, try to be attuned to other people's needs and am less tolerant of relationships that are toxic or just not worth it.

I don't think of people who are intellectually rather than emotionally oriented as "unhealthy", however. That seems too strong and broad a judgement, given how many people are like this. My pdoc refers to people who are like this as not being "psychologically minded", which sounds more accurate to me. I think therapy has helped me to communicate better with people who don't necessarily think or respond to things exactly like I do, which I think is important. It's also what helped me to relax a little about some things and establish more boundaries about others- something I've had trouble with in the past. So overall, my relationships have definitely been helped by therapy.

[Leah123]

Originally Posted by archipelago

It's a general question I guess though I am having a specific problem with this that I have recognized before but it is really clear right now.

In the process of doing therapy, I've learned about how to talk things through, even if difficult, and get to an understanding. It may be hard for various reasons, but the result tends to make it worth the effort.

When I have tried to do this outside therapy with people who have not been exposed to therapy or who are not open to this sort of thing, I've been very frustrated, sometimes upset, and usually disappointed. It just doesn't seem to work out that well. Sometimes I even regret trying because it makes things worse.

I don't know if it is just my own experience, and if so what I need to do about it. Or maybe others have had this happen too?

Or maybe others have had positive results? Then maybe I could learn something about how that happens.

It's become easier for me to speak with my husband, daughter and other family and acquaintances since I've been working on discussing difficult topics and unburdening myself in therapy.

It's been challenging and scary at times but rewarding.

It's helped that I'd already eliminated toxic people from my life- did that work years ago, so I'm dealing with people who really love me and are committed to me as well as discovering through my attempts that people I know have more in common with me than I expected in terms of having difficult pasts and struggles. Therapy's helped me take of the 'everything's fine and I don't need anyone' mask, so it's been a big help, rewarding if not easy.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by archipelago

In the process of doing therapy, I've learned about how to talk things through, even if difficult, and get to an understanding. It may be hard for various reasons, but the result tends to make it worth the effort.

When I have tried to do this outside therapy with people who have not been exposed to therapy or who are not open to this sort of thing, I've been very frustrated, sometimes upset, and usually disappointed. It just doesn't seem to work out that well. Sometimes I even regret trying because it makes things worse.

I was going to give a long answer but suddenly realized I don't really understand the first paragraph. It would help if you could mention specific examples or elaborate a bit.

Because I can only think of two things: a rational discussion or debate with the purpose of clarifying a concept or view (which I'm sure happens in many other areas) or more like self-reflective kind of discussion, like when two therapy patients are having an emotional argument but are able to extract themselves from the heated debate and look at the triggers that got them going (free of judgment), using the debate as something positive and educational that helps them gain perspective and awareness and psychological growth. Which is certainly not how debates end in real life!

Made it much easier.i am lots more comflrtable in my relationships now

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by Partless

I was going to give a long answer but suddenly realized I don't really understand the first paragraph. It would help if you could mention specific examples or elaborate a bit.

Because I can only think of two things: a rational discussion or debate with the purpose of clarifying a concept or view (which I'm sure happens in many other areas) or more like self-reflective kind of discussion, like when two therapy patients are having an emotional argument but are able to extract themselves from the heated debate and look at the triggers that got them going (free of judgment), using the debate as something positive and educational that helps them gain perspective and awareness and psychological growth. Which is certainly not how debates end in real life!

I was actually wondering about this paragraph myself. A lot of the discussions that take place in therapy just don't happen in real life, so I wonder what some concrete examples might be also.