Would you judge your t?

Don't get discouraged. Someone with your experience of life and the pain it's brought you is extremely valuable to the profession. Most people here aren't put off by a T with trauma history or even past self harm issues, just the visual aspect of the scars. From what I can see on this thread, a therapist who's come thru a difficult time successfully is desirable.

I'd be interested in them (the scars) , probably more than necessary but I would also accept them and it would give me hope.

Maybe that was Madame T's problem. She was too sane.

I would respect you and know that you really know what its like to be in that position. I guess there are those that have different standards and might expect different, but I really admire and respect you for what you are doing so keep at it.

I would be proud of my T, actually. Anyone who had the power to overcome something like that is more than qualified to help others with their pain. I think it also allows for better empathy skills, which are imperative to a T.

How would you know your T has really overcome SI? Would you trust their word? It would be unethical for a T to admit they still SI. And people who SI often switch areas on the body when necessary. I have.

I just wouldn't know if I could trust them. Again, if s/he isn't stable, how are they going to handle someone like me?

I don't know if she goes on benders every weekend, has a shoplifting habit, or kicks puppies for fun. When she's in the room with me she's human, understands struggle because she's been there, and she's not SI in front of me. If I saw new fresh marks I would probably worry about her pain, but old scars? Nah.

For a number of years, I've been interested in Dr. Marsha Linehan's work in developing and implementing DBT. I've watched tapes of her using her techniques or talking about DBT. I've attended workshops teaching DBT techniques, but I've never met or listened to Linehan in person. I will say that even on CD she's a pretty calm, rational and interesting person. She's pretty straight forward in her approach to her clients and their self-injury and suicidal ideation.

It was fascinating to me that when she "came out" as a person who suffered from borderline personality disorder, that she talked about having scars on her arms that clients often noticed and asked her about. I guess she was able to effectively dodge those questions, which doesn't surprise me because her dry humor and calm demeanor tell me that she could probably handle anything.

Personally, I don't think I'd be bothered by a therapist's scars. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and think that scars are a personal issue and none of my business. I might wonder, but I wouldn't ask. If they weren't fresh cuts or injuries, I wouldn't be put off. I think people have a wide variety of life experiences and I sure as heck don't want to be seeing someone who has NO IDEA how rough and tumble things are out there in the real world. I like to think that I'd appreciate her scars as evidence that she knew what terrible things stalked a person but that she was able to get through the horror.

I think I'm pretty good at determining if someone is still caught up in the horror or drama of a hard life. I don't fault those who haven't been able to get themselves out of a "bad" situation, I get it that sometimes one gets stuck or caught in a trap, but I wouldn't want that person to be my therapist, trying to lead me out of the minefield. I've met more than a few individuals who have no right to be therapists at that particular point in their lives--they weren't bad people, they were just stuck in trying to fix their personal problems and needing a job at any cost. I know that when I went through my own personal "rough patch", I got out of the business and did something else until I was better. Not everyone has the same options as I did, but I still regret that there isn't some kind of thing to prevent people who are unstable from being "on the job".

Anyway, I don't think I'd be bothered by a therapist who had healed scars. All that matters to me is that the therapist understands me, is skillful and sticks with me through all my crap! I sure don't want to wade through her stuff!!!

Okay, I'm going to admit this and I don't mean it as a slam against anyone who has responded here on this thread because I think everyone has been wonderfully honest and up front about how they feel. I just wanted to comment on how our mental view of therapists as being perfect and untouched by the trauma of life possibly makes us close doors on important connections . . . doors that we might possibly close or cut off in other relationships we attempt to foster.

I get it that people are put off by SI and they want the person treating them in psychotherapy as having their, you know what, together. Anyway, I find it so sad that all of us on this forum talk about resenting being judged by others sooooooooooo much. There have even been discussions about how we resent, worry, angst about our therapists judging us. And yes, sometimes they do! Yet we admit freely that we'd judge the person who is willing to work with us therapeutically. I get it that if the person is an idiot who has no concept of how therapy should be conducted or she allows her personal issues to interfere with our therapy that we would immediately get out of the situation. But what about the skilled and compassionate therapist who demonstrates the ability to BE THERE with us in our pain, confusion and anger about getting well? There are so many ways that we could tell that the person we made an appointment with is poorly trained, mentally unstable or unmotivated and uninterested in our issues. I guess I'm saying, isn't it okay to stay with a therapist who went through hell and got through to the other side? It's pretty typical in addiction services that this kind of life experience makes for a better, more clinically aware therapist. Wrong?

I don't disagree that struggles make us stronger. (In fact, my T and I had an interesting discussion this week about that in reference to a recent publicized death). I do not expect my T to be perfect. I have actually begged her at one point to prove to me she's not perfect...lol. And I am a self-injurer myself and have met many who have SI'ed.

But for a T to disclose their own issues, it needs to be an appropriate time and client for that. Letting client randomly see scars and them having to ask about them is inappropriate imo. But if the relationship between client and T is stable, and disclosure could benefit the client, then I think disclosure would be okay.

We might not want to be judge, but there's no way to avoid it. And in a delicate relationship such as therapy, disclosure could be harmful to the client. As a therapist, your clients come first; not your desire to be accepted.

I think the OP asked for honest answers, and people are trying to give honest answers. It's better to know ahead of time what kind of reactions you might get when you become a therapist.

But on the separate discussion about judgement that came up, it remind me of that poem by the theologian and mystic, Rumi:

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing
there is a field. I will meet you there...

That's something I constantly struggle with and what this poem describes it's my ideal, to be able to reach that field. I can almost imagine it, the freedom there, from self-judgment, from judging others, from angry boundaries and rules and divisions and harshness we direct at ourselves and others... it's wonderful!

Partless, that sounds like a lovely place to be

Wow, so many responses, I have been reading them all again and thinking about everyone's replies.
I would never show my scars, and also I would not work with clients if I was in a place where I was currently harming. I agree that that would mean I am not stable enough to support others. But it's been lovely reading the well wishes, and support, and I guess it's true that different people need different things from their T's. I was feeling rather discouraged yesterday, but better now, and resolved even more to work through all my own issues so I can be that t, for someone.

I would never judge my T for something in the past. People learn from things.

Many people with issues seek to recover through becoming a therapist.... Unfortunately, this doesn't always work out......
I prefer to seek a T who has undergone intense training and understands rather than wants to be understood.

I use to Si , sometimes I have thoughts to do it, I don't know, how I would feel in the exact moment. I would guess knowing my insecurities , I would be very uncomfortable , thinking my t will have a relapse, or whether or not she has suicidal thoughts when she is home, is she stable ect... This is only if scars are visible regardless if fresh or not. I mean even if a t does not Si , they still could have stability problems you don't know about, but visible scars would be a deal breaker for me. I wish you the best in your therapy career,

I would be very uncomfortable. Just wear long sleeves and it shouldn't be an issue.

As I already stated, I would not go to a T with visible SI scars- I need my Ts history blank- at least the first few years. I do now (8th year and counting) from time to time ask my T about him but in the beginning I kind of played the game T's not real, just s.o. that exists only for 50 min a week... I know it sounds silly but that was what I needed to get me talking/sharing.
That said I do not believe a difficult past automatically signify good/bad T- or person for what is worth. I don't believe I am better/worse for "overcoming" my past as I'll never know what kind of person I would be without it.

It's great you have a dream and are working hard to achieve it. I think you asking yourself (us) this truly difficult question shows you do have a potential to become a great T one day

This may be a tangent, but I found this statement by Jaybird57 especially important: I would extend that beyond therapists. In many of the forums on this site and other mental health sites, as well in real life experience, many people express the feeling that they are particularly odd, weird, messed up or generally awful, and that other people are leading wonderful, easy or perfect lives.

In my experience, nobody has a perfect life. Some people have it easier, but even lives that look so smooth and seamless on the surface can be marred by trauma, loss, fears, agony, shame and struggle.

You can't tell by looking at someone if they were abused as a child or assaulted in an alley or had their heart broken, money stolen or have sick kids at home. The shiniest, most-together-looking professional I know lived on the streets as a homeless teenager before he managed to pull himself out of it and into school. And yet I've heard people shout at him, "You could never know what it's like ...." He knows. He knows all too well and he's dedicated his adult life to helping street people.

As Jaybird said so well, our mental views of Ts (and other people around us) as being untouched by the trauma of life (and therefore different from us and unable to comprehend us) may cause us to close doors on important connections that could foster important relationships.

IMO, that's an important idea to extend not only to Ts but to many of the people we meet. We can't tell what struggles they've faced in life just by looking at them. They may look damn good on the surface. It doesn't help us any if we automatically judge them as having it easy and then turn around and judge ourselves as somehow ruined or awful in comparison because we know what we've suffered.

Maybe when we judge others without adequate information about their lives the person we may actually be harming the most by that judgment is ourselves, especially if we go around feeling either less-than or superior-to in comparison. More often than not, we'll be equal to them in ways we could never imagine.

I wanted to respond to this and the aspect of judgement that people are showing on this subject.

I think it depends on your reason for going to therapy as to whether you could accept seeing old scars on a therapist. For me, and a lot of people on this board, we came from backgrounds of neglect and very often as vulnerable children we were made to be our own caregiver and be caregiver of our parents. We grow up feeling responsible for everyone else's happiness and neglect our own because we've never mattered to our families. We slip into the caregiver role almost unconciously and some of us still try to do it with our Therapists ( a good therapist doesn't allow it.)

Therapy is a chance for us for one or two hours a week to concentrate on ourselves, to learn about what our needs are and have them met without distraction. In order to feel safe to do that, some of us need to be able to believe that our therapists are super strong, don't have problems, aren't tainted with similar problems we feel we are because if we get a mere sniff of vulnerability from our T's it shakes the foundations of the therapy and it's no longer a safe place and we feel untethered. We also simply slip back into caregiver/rescuer mode with our t's. It's kind of like being a little kid and believing you're safe because you mommy is there and she can save you from anything. You need to feel that with your T too in order to let yourself be vulnerable so you can heal.

So I don't think it's a case of being judgmental for the sake of it, or holding therapists to an unattainable level. No one here has said that t's shouldn't have problems. Just that they don't want to be reminded of them in their own therapy. And I think that's ok.

Some people are ok seeing scars or knowing the T's history and indeed it might help them and others don't want to know and that is ok too.

SI scars are a form of unsolicited self disclosure so I think it depends on your approach and what kind of T you are. Personally, I would be mindful my own scars (which now are about 3 or more years old and I still have 2 years to go for my license) and try to keep them covered at first.

I asked my pdoc about this and he told me that most people in the field are in it because they have issues anyway and not to worry about it, so long as it's well in the past no longer an issue. So I wouldn't judge someone based on what they did some years ago so long as they got it together and take care of themselves now. I actually think the personal experience can make for a better therapist, because you have insight you can only get from experience. I wouldn't talk about it with clients, but just hope it was reflected in my ability to empathize with certain clients. As a client recent scars would bother me. Not because I'd think less of their character, but mostly because it shows they are still not coping well. I wouldn't want my T using my therapy as a way to heal themselves, if that makes any sense..

I think, if I noticed fresh marks, the thing about it that would bother me is that the therapist was not clever enough to pick a place they would not show. Self soothing is fine with me, stupidity is not.

Probably why my daughter was SI for many years before I found out about it. She was smart enough to know that if I saw her scars the secret would be common knowledge, and she didn't disclose it to me until she was ready to.

For me it isn't about self soothing at all. It's mostly about self punishment. It's not soothing to me. But I do understand what you're saying.

And everyone does suffer somehow. To suggest that a therapist can't be helpful to the suffering because they themselves haven't suffered enough is kind of judgmental as well.

This is a really predominate point in this discussion imo. Stressed, all my scars are all on the inside too. Your post was so poignant.

Aside from the visibility issues, I'm thinking this issue isn't any different from all of the invisible issues that therapists have. Yet I totally understand why some would not be ok with having a therapist with scars. And that some are ok with it. Like Asia said, both are ok... Great thread with great responses that seem to be potentially helpful to those aspiring to enter the profession. I like the example of Marsha Linehan--very inspiring.

Maybe this is somewhat of a tangent, but I think my interest in this thread originates from being sensitive to exclusion of people with mental health issues from different areas of life. I can't speak for others, but my MI issues have prevented me from pursuing my dreams; and although I've tried, the vigor and passion are gone. I'm exhausted. Having limited opportunities for this and other areas of life because of my childhood really hurts. I missed out on so much. I still have some hope to get some of my passion back through psychotherapy...but I am also aware of the reality of my limits due to my present circumstances.

Anyway, I wanted to share my experience and how it relates to all of this. Though not everyone has the ego strength or health to pursue all of their goals, whatever they might be, I'm really inspired by people who can turn around adversity into something good. (Did you ever see the movie Pay it Forward?)

Red, I think it's very positive that you are exploring this and related issues. You are brave for asking about this here and you are inspiring. Inspiration surely has a positive effect on clts, and you might find some of them sitting across from you inphe room someday. Best of luck withour proessionalndeavors. :hug

PS I have said before that there would be a huge shortage of therapists if those with MH issues were not able to enter the profession. ha

I believe everyone has mental health issues. It's just the degree that it effects your quality of life that determines a diagnosis. Life is full of struggles. Some people experience less; some experience more. Some have support; some have none. Two people can live through the same trauma yet it will affect them in different ways. The fact that we all must endure hardships and are able to survive is the most beautiful aspect of human life (imo).

Without darkness, how do you know there is light? Without pain, how do you know there is joy? Pain has a purpose. We all experience it.