[WinterRose]

My psychiatrist told me today that he feels sometimes like I set him up for failure. I also seem to have a talent for hurting him.

Now he's not a psychologist or therapist, but he does make some good points in his observations and I always end up thinking because of what he says. For example, this was my response to him regarding his comment about setting him up for failure: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Setting you up for failure - I don't doubt that I probably do. I probably do that to myself and those around me. I set them up to fail in my/our relationship. How do I do that? How do I change that? How should I adjust my expectations? My therapist once said I have impossible expectations of others and myself. Also, there are two of us involved so let me ask you as well: How are you buying into this? How are you participating in this? How do you set yourself up for failure?

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I think that's good stuff to go into. The problem is that I don't get much further because we don't have time together and like I said he isn't trained so the sessions don't work like they do with a therapist.

I know there is a lot of transference and countertransference going on and I don't have a handle on all of it. It's too bad he isn't trained in this because this relationship triggers more things and would allow me to work through more things than the relationship I have with my therapist.

I should talk to my therapist about this other relationship, but I keep getting sheepish, feeling afraid that I will get in trouble for having all this transference going on like I do. I'm a little embarrassed that I react so strongly to him and that he seems to mean so much to me.

> My psychiatrist told me today that he feels sometimes like I set him up for failure. I also seem to have a talent for hurting him.

Hmm.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww (((((((WinterRose's p-doc))))))))
That is a bit of an odd thing to have said...

I wonder what he meant?

Is he feeling inadequate with respect to finding you a medication that works out well for you? Does he think that you have unrealistic expectations for a medication?

Having trouble figuring out what he means by that...

Did he elaborate at all?

[sunrise]

WinterRose, could you ask your pdoc to talk to your therapist? Sounds like some conferring between them might be helpful. If a therapist is having some challenges with a client, I think the typical thing is for him to consult with another T. (And maybe it shouldn't be your T.) I know your pdoc is not a T, but maybe he needs to consult with a T or whoever supervises him for some advise on how to handle the transference/countertransference that is going on with you.

My T told me about some countertransference going on last time we met. It was helpful to me to know it was happening. And I think getting it out was good. He also told me he is handling it really well and I believe him. It is not going to get in the way of my therapy. It sounds like your pdoc has acknowledged the countertransference but hasn't been able to provide the necessary assurances that he can handle it.

[Rapunzel]

Since your psychiatrist and T are both on your team, they should be able to consult with each other and make sure they stay on the same page. I think having them talk would be good. And transference in therapy is an opportunity. It's by working through it and understanding it you grow and develop.

[WinterRose]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
alexandra_k said: I wonder what he meant?

Is he feeling inadequate with respect to finding you a medication that works out well for you?

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I'm not sure what he meant. He didn't go into detail. But I'm pretty sure it's not about medication. I think he's referring to how I sometimes bag on him about not keeping his word - he over commits. I know that, but I get triggered and then I beat up on him. He said once that he felt I attacked his professionalism. I want more from him and he's silly enough to offer it when he can't give it. That's my guess.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sunrise said: WinterRose, could you ask your pdoc to talk to your therapist?

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I forgot I could have them talk. I've had them talk before. Good idea. I'm still a little embarrassed though.

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Rapunzel said: And transference in therapy is an opportunity. It's by working through it and understanding it you grow and develop.

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That's why I'm sad he's not a therapist. I think there is a lot of opportunity in what is going on and that I need to work through it. Do you think I could do that vicariously with the therapist even though this isn't going on with her?

[Rapunzel]

Yes, your T can help you work on transference with others in your life too. Transference is all around us, and a lot of what therapy deals with is figuring out how we are affected by that. Since you can have them talk to each other, your T can get both sides of the picture, and that should help even more. And you can also talk to your psychiatrist about your transference with him, even if he doesn't do therapy. He is part of your therapy team, even if he mostly manages your meds. You must talk to him enough to develop this transference.

Though... I'm wondering whether this really is a counter-transference issue more than a transference issue.

Did he tell you precisely what it is that you do that makes him feel that way? Or was he just venting about how he was feeling?

[WinterRose]

He didn't say precisely. I e-mailed him that he needs to educate me about what I do that causes that feeling in him. I don't know what I'm doing or how. I don't know if it's my problem or his. Maybe he was just venting. I do know that I have hurt his 'ego' in the past and he told me it was because I hit home with the truth. He also said it was ok... I did appreciate that he let me know and that I saw his reaction. I'm not sure why that was important, but it was. But I still don't always get what I'm doing exactly. I think I may do it because I want his attention and maybe because I'm punishing him in place of my father? Looking at that statement I see again how I do this push away and then pull kind of thing to people in my relationships - or at least in this one.

I see him in person next week. Maybe this will come up.

[Smilie]

Thats powerful and intense!

Smilie

lol. good on you for emailing him.

> I don't know what I'm doing or how. I don't know if it's my problem or his.

i suspect... the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle ;-)

> I do know that I have hurt his 'ego' in the past

do you remember what you did?

> he told me it was because I hit home with the truth.

sometimes it can be the *way* it is expressed more than *what* was expressed...

> He said it was okay. I did appreciate that he let me know and that I saw his reaction. I'm not sure why that was important, but it was.

Maybe because he is able to be in touch with his own feelings / responses (which is fairly admirable) and also honest enough to be upfront with you (which is something that I really value too). Also... He is able to take an ego injury and compose himself (and not retaliate or get really worked up about it). So... You didn't kill him with your honesty ;-) Good to know that ;-) And the fact that he did feel hurt shows that he does care about your opinion of him as well. Which is kinda cool :-)

> I think I may do it because I want his attention and maybe because I'm punishing him in place of my father? Looking at that statement I see again how I do this push away and then pull kind of thing to people in my relationships - or at least in this one.

Yeah, I hear you.

Can you remember what happened the time you hurt his ego?

[WinterRose]

Yeah - I bruised his ego when I wrote him this letter about how we were spending too much time on him and not so much time on me in the appointments and I said we needed to get down to business. It was a scary letter to write and then I avoided him afterwards. He caught me in his office dropping something off and pulled me in when we didn't have an appointment to discuss it. I was so afraid he'd never see me again. I remember walking after him eyes downcast and even covering them with my hand. I felt I had done something bad.

And these days he feels I'm attacking his professionalism because I go on about how he doesn't return calls when he says he will etc. I no longer feel bad about it though - now I just get irritated with him. I think I'm touching him in areas where he already feels inadequate because he is not yet working for himself so he can't do things the way he wants to.

I think you're right about the "way" instead of the "what." He's said that to me before too. That I am too, I don't know, blunt? I'd like to learn how to be otherwise. Where's the balance between being honest and dissembling? Truth is always hard for someone to hear isn't it? I figure if it hurts me then it must be true. Wait - that sounds illogical.

Thanks for the thoughts about why it's important to me. I guess you're right. I do admire him greatly and his humility is one of the characteristics that cause that. (I do realize I have some mirror transference, idealizing transference, and twinship transference going on with him.) It's nice to know that he won't go away when I make a mistake or hurt him. Plus knowing he was hurt makes him human and real.

I think my biggest frustration is that I want to work these things out with him and I feel that we're so disjointed. We never complete/finish/close something. We only meet once a month for half an hour. Then we both get distracted because we both have ADD. And so many emails go out between sessions that I don't know what we should cover if I could remember it. And I get embarrassed about stuff too - easier to write than to speak - but for him easier to speak instead of write.

So I'm going to be brave and talk with my therapist about the relationship. It's so hard for me to talk to her about my transference with him because I feel so embarrassed that it's this important and that he's important to me. I think I've been shamed by being continually reminded that relationships with professionals can't go beyond the professional. But I think it's ludicrous to separate your life that way - especially when you have such a close relationship with therapists and psychiatrists - I mean could you share what you do if you didn't trust them and feel that they were your friends. You don't just turn that off and on.

OK - that last bit was me ranting on. Just ignore.

This is reminding me more and more of a relationship I had with one of my p-docs. (As such you should take what I say with more than a grain of salt, no doubt. You need to assess how much this fits for you).

> Yeah - I bruised his ego when I wrote him this letter about how we were spending too much time on him and not so much time on me in the appointments and I said we needed to get down to business.

Does he talk about himself a lot or do you mean that most of the time is spent talking about his deficiencies (e.g., him promising to do something and then not doing it?) If the latter... This is a situation that I got into with one of my p-docs. He would make promises and then not follow through on them with action. Repeatedly. And I'd pull him up on it every time and so our time together was mostly about that. Him getting defensive, and me trying to figure a way to get him to change... And not wanting to go on about this (wanting to get to the real issues) but going on about it regardless.

> And these days he feels I'm attacking his professionalism because I go on about how he doesn't return calls when he says he will etc.

I think it is fair to be able to expect that when someone promises they will do something that they will do it. *Expecially* clinicians. He does indeed need to learn to not make promises if he is unsure whether he can follow through on them. It can be as easy as saying 'I'll *try* to get back to you by xxx' instead of saying 'I'll get back to you by xxx'.

> I think I'm touching him in areas where he already feels inadequate because he is not yet working for himself so he can't do things the way he wants to.

That sounds right to me. The biggest bone of contention between me and my p-doc was his taking calls on his mobile and checking his pager when it went off while I was trying to talk to him. He would jump up and leave the room or he would check his pager and then leave the room to make a call. He promised he wouldn't do that anymore, but he just kept on doing it.

What took me a while to realise... Was that he was oncall for emergencies at the hospital. The registrars were keeping him updated by pager but they would call when they really didn't know what they should do. Basically... He didn't have the time to see me and he was overcommitting to seeing me. He never told me that but I realised one day when he didn't show because there was some emergency at the hospital and the receptionist explained that he was oncall there on whatever day of the week I was seeing him.

I'm sure things aren't *that* bad with your p-doc but it could well be that there are emergencies like that (unexpected ones) that waylay him from getting back to you when he promised. What he needs to learn to do, however, is to not make promises that he can't keep.

Why? Because it is hard to trust someone who repeatedly breaks your trust. I found it hard because p-doc was so wonderful to me in a lot of other respects and so I really struggled with this aspect of his untrustworthyness.

Maybe... You could say / write something to him... Something about how you understand that he is busy... And that emergencies etc can come up which waylay him... But that trust is an issue for you and you are doing your best to trust him but that it is hard to trust when he doesn't keep his word. Then give him an example or two of things he has said where he didn't keep his word and say that it is things like that that are hard. And then maybe provide a couple of examples of different things he could have said (Like 'I'll *try* and email you before xxx' or 'I'll do my best to').

That way... You won't have so much trouble with trusting him (and same goes for other clients). And that way... When he really does promise something... You should be able to trust him. But of course it will take some time to repair things.

I think that it was that you hit him where it hurts rather. And I don't think that that was your fault. Sounds to me like you can help him in this instant. I assure you that if you are having this trouble with him then others are similarly having this trouble with him. Offering him some concrete suggestions for change could help ;-)

> So I'm going to be brave and talk with my therapist about the relationship.

That sounds like a good idea.

> It's so hard for me to talk to her about my transference with him because I feel so embarrassed that it's this important and that he's important to me.

Yep. That is what is hard about transference...

> I think I've been shamed by being continually reminded that relationships with professionals can't go beyond the professional. But I think it's ludicrous to separate your life that way - especially when you have such a close relationship with therapists and psychiatrists - I mean could you share what you do if you didn't trust them and feel that they were your friends. You don't just turn that off and on.

Thats right. Especially since your relationship seems more 'friendly' and reciprocal than most p-doc client relationships (and that is okay). But yeah, I understand the desire for friendship.

[WinterRose]

Thanks Alexandra - you're good to talk to.

[Smilie]

What is counter transference?

Smilie

[sunrise]

Countertransference is where the therapist transfers his feelings onto the client. For example, maybe the client reminds him from someone from his past, so he begins to treat the client in that same way. It's just like transference, but in reverse. Good therapists are aware of when countertransference is happening and can use it to therapeutic benefit.

I've had a little bit of countertransference going on in my dyad. T is aware of it and will state it immediately, so it's on the table and we are aware of it. He keeps a tight rein on it. I appreciate his honesty in acknowledging it to me.

[Talulah]

Yes, I've experienced it with mine as well.....twice to my knowledge. She was very good in making us 'aware' of it and if she hadn't, it would have gotten in the way...

Made me feel good as she seemed more competent after it happened. Yes, their honesty is just as important as ours.