What is the point of a therapist?

Hey Silver,

Was your counselor a therapist? Certainly some therapists are better than others! Mine's a clinical psychologist. I once had a regular counselor (no psychology training), but he wasn't able to help me with the types of relationship problems that I have. And regardless of their training, some therapists are better suited for some clients. Just a relationship thing.

I thought I had a lot of insight. I didn't realize how dishonest I was until I started therapy. I wondered why I had trouble with relationships, and it's because I didn't know how to express my own wants/needs. I'm still not great at it, but I'm getting much better through therapy. For me, I could not have got there on my own. I just couldn't see myself. It doesn't make any difference to me that my therapist doesn't know the other people. He's trying to understand who I am regardless of who made me that way.

One thing about therapy is that you realize you can't keep running away. A good therapist will cause you to confront a problem again and again.

Sidony

Sidony, it was a counsellor I visited... a university counsellor. I don't know what qualifications they have...

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It doesn't make any difference to me that my therapist doesn't know the other people. He's trying to understand who I am regardless of who made me that way.

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But nobody is completely uninfluenced by other people. A lot of your behaviour will be learned from the past, both good and bad. Not to sound disrespectful, but you make it sound as though a therapist can teach you a whole new way of living a life, bordering on perfection...

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alexandra_k said:
i think the point about the theraputic relationship is really very important. i mean i can say 'i'm a worthwhile human being' five million times until i'm blue in the face it stil doesn't substitute for someone treating me like i'm a worthwhile human being.

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Sorry I've only just read this as I guessed there would be so many good and different posts on this subject, I had nothing to add, but I think this about says it all. Very good!

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silver_queen said:
But nobody is completely uninfluenced by other people. A lot of your behaviour will be learned from the past, both good and bad.

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Absolutely true!!! I just meant that he didn't need to meet them to see who I am. And certainly we talk about where I learned certain things. But it's more important for him to know how I am now than where I learned it (though he's getting both).

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Not to sound disrespectful, but you make it sound as though a therapist can teach you a whole new way of living a life, bordering on perfection...

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I do think he is teaching me a whole new way of living. Now, perfection would be really streeeeeeeetttttching it, but he's definitely teaching me how to interact with people in healthier ways. I already find that my relationships are improving.

I suppose it's all in what you want. This is what I'm looking for (learning to be closer to people), and therapy turned out to be the best way to get it.

Sidony

(((((((( Silver ))))))))

You don't know what, if any qualifications your therapist had since he/she was available through uni.

Also, no one will ever be able to say anything that will make you want to go to a t or pdoc until you decide you want to get better. There is no point in saying anything.

Hugs,

Jan

Sidony, we're all influenced by our upbringing, whether it's good, bad, or mixed. Now your t is teaching you new life skills, you say... but he too has been influenced by his own past, so why does that give him the right to teach you 'skills' when he might have his own issues and prejudices (and might be unintentionally influencing you with them?) I mean that his own problems and issues might negatively influence what he teaches you. For example he might react in one way to a situation - and so he teaches you that's the best way to behave - but in reality there might be another and better way to react. But he's missed that (for some reason) but you have learned another maladaptive way... and you'd think it's good.

That's just a general example and not commenting on any personal things you might be learning with your t.

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silver_queen said:
Maybe it's obvious to some, but my dad says - and I agree - that therapists can't know any more than you can learn yourself. eg self-education to help you get better. He says,'what can they know that you don't?'

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I can't think of any "subject" where that's not true? You got an extra 7 years past a BA for the PhD Psychology training? :-)

But it's not just book learning, it's practice and skill and aptitude. I haven't got any of those when dealing with others, "personal interaction". It's not what they know, it's who they are from their life experiences, education, and background all put together. I could learn to be an engineer too, or architect but that wouldn't make me a "good" one, have to work at it for a living/calling. If I could successfully help myself therapeutically, why wouldn't I go that route? Certainly cheaper :-)

Hm, he doesn't tell me what to do! He offers alternatives and asks what I think of them, how they would make me feel, etc. It's not the same as having someone tell you what you should do. He'll ask me how I felt about a particular situation, then once I describe it he'll ask why I didn't say how I felt at the time, and we discuss the reasons why I'm not open about certain things, etc. etc. (I realize that's vague for an example, but it's very personal stuff so I'm choosing not to be overly specific.) I'm learning to be a lot more insightful and a lot more honest and sharing with myself and others.

As far as having his own issues, I have no doubt that he does! That's why therapists go through so much training -- so they can act objectively and in the interest of their clients. He never acts judgmental, just gets me to talk about whether the things I'm doing are healthy or not.

It's been amazingly helpful so far!

Sidony

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silver_queen said:
For example he might react in one way to a situation - and so he teaches you that's the best way to behave - but in reality there might be another and better way to react. But he's missed that (for some reason) but you have learned another maladaptive way... and you'd think it's good.

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I have no doubt that there are good and bad therapists. If the things I learn in therapy were leading me away from my goals instead of toward them, then I might think his suggestions were bad. But I'm very consciously aware of the improvements in my life. I am lucky to have such a good therapist!!! :-)

Sidony

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silver_queen said:
Sidony, we're all influenced by our upbringing, whether it's good, bad, or mixed. Now your t is teaching you new life skills, you say... but he too has been influenced by his own past, so why does that give him the right to teach you 'skills' when he might have his own issues and prejudices (and might be unintentionally influencing you with them?) I mean that his own problems and issues might negatively influence what he teaches you. For example he might react in one way to a situation - and so he teaches you that's the best way to behave - but in reality there might be another and better way to react. But he's missed that (for some reason) but you have learned another maladaptive way... and you'd think it's good.

That's just a general example and not commenting on any personal things you might be learning with your t.

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Many therapists don't "teach" skills, they mainly provide opportunites for new ways of relating-- but that is not "taught" by the therapist. It is a process that can take quite some time to unfold. Again, I have to speak from both sides-- I am a therapist in training who has had quite an upbrining. If you looked at my history, you would probably say it was illegal for me to give therapy to others, lol. However, that is something that is worked out in the meantime-- I do not bring my issues into therapy (as a therapist, obviously), and they do not influence the manner in which I deal with clients. My coping skills are a direct result of my upbringing-- when I give therapy, it is with a conscious mind of not putting my "stuff" on someone else. I have spent a lot of time in school (and in my own therapy) bringing my any stereotypes, biases, issues, etc., to consciousness. I don't look at therapy as teaching-- the client teaches his or herself. The therapist facilliates this. Provides the insight. Is a blank slate for the client to project onto. Helps to awake the unconscious. Gives unconditional positive regard. Feels along with the client. Provides the most unique relationship one will ever experience. Will understand the client like no one has ever understood him/her in the world.

You make sense, Sidony

So I suppose by choosing what to do, you're being more honest to yourself in the long run... as long as the choices given are good choices, obviously.

How do you bond with a stranger? Aren't you afraid that he might appear to take you seriously, but inside be laughing at you or something? I realize that you build up a 'therapeutic relationship' but isn't it a rather false one?

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January said:

Also, no one will ever be able to say anything that will make you want to go to a t or pdoc until you decide you want to get better. There is no point in saying anything.

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Jan... is it really so bad that I'm not ready to get better? "There is no point in saying anything" sounds rather condemning

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pinksoil said:
Many therapists don't "teach" skills, they mainly provide opportunites for new ways of relating-- but that is not "taught" by the therapist. It is a process that can take quite some time to unfold. Again, I have to speak from both sides-- I am a therapist in training who has had quite an upbrining. If you looked at my history, you would probably say it was illegal for me to give therapy to others, lol. However, that is something that is worked out in the meantime-- I do not bring my issues into therapy (as a therapist, obviously), and they do not influence the manner in which I deal with clients. My coping skills are a direct result of my upbringing-- when I give therapy, it is with a conscious mind of not putting my "stuff" on someone else. I have spent a lot of time in school (and in my own therapy) bringing my any stereotypes, biases, issues, etc., to consciousness. I don't look at therapy as teaching-- the client teaches his or herself. The therapist facilliates this. Provides the insight. Is a blank slate for the client to project onto. Helps to awake the unconscious. Gives unconditional positive regard. Feels along with the client. Provides the most unique relationship one will ever experience. Will understand the client like no one has ever understood him/her in the world.

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pinksoil, it's good to see this from the perspective of a t! (or at least, one in training )
So you're learning... how do you yourself know that the things you're learning are 'true'? For example I once read a book about Freud and I think some of the things he said are a bit... weird. You could interpret that as me being resistant and not wanting to face up to the truth, or alternatively that I plain just don't agree with it. From the impression I get those are conclusions that Freud drew, rather than being verifiable truth. If it is based on somebody's (possibly misguided) conclusions, then doesn't that mean that your own understanding of psychological issues may be incorrect, and so this would influence your understanding of a client, and so this would mean that the way you treat the client may not *really* be in the best interest of the client (though you believe and want it to be the best interest). I'm not quite sure if I've expressed what I'm meaning to say here... please ask if it doesn't make sense

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silver_queen said:
How do you bond with a stranger? Aren't you afraid that he might appear to take you seriously, but inside be laughing at you or something? I realize that you build up a 'therapeutic relationship' but isn't it a rather false one?

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Haha, I have to make a reply to this because it reminds me of me and my T. I always tell him that inside he's probably like, "There's no hope for her; just get her out of here..." The other day I cried a bit and I told him, "Don't expect me to start bawling." He said, "I might start bawling..." And I was like, "Oh, you are going to laugh so hard, you will start to cry?" It takes quite awhile to build up that trust with a therpaist. But there is a certain point, in which you know they are sincere. And that they really are crying with you inside, or feeling angry when you're angry (with you, not at you, lol), or feeling excited when you're excited...

The therapeutic relationship isn't false-- it's unique. It's unlike any relationship that you will ever have. But it is quite real. There are strong emotions involved on both the part of the client and the therapist.

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silver_queen said:
You make sense, Sidony

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Thanks!

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How do you bond with a stranger? Aren't you afraid that he might appear to take you seriously, but inside be laughing at you or something? I realize that you build up a 'therapeutic relationship' but isn't it a rather false one?

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I don't know how the bonding happens! I didn't really expect it. I didn't know what to expect from therapy frankly. But I found that almost instantly I felt there was a bond between me and him. I guess he facilitated that 'cause I sure don't know how it comes about. It doesn't seem false to me. I mean, of course I pay him so it's different from friendship. But in friendship I'd be helping the other person with their problems too (something you don't do in therapy). I guess it's more like having a mentor. I did worry what he thought of me for a long time -- heck I still do. But I genuinely feel that he cares, and he's clearly helping me toward my goals. So I'm really happy that I ended up in therapy. I mostly just did it on a whim because someone said it would be helpful. I didn't know what I was doing.

I think for therapy to be helpful you have to be receptive to the idea. And obviously you need a therapist that you click with. I don't know how you pick -- I was just lucky I guess. But it's wonderfully helpful when it's right.

Sidony

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January said:
(((((((( Silver ))))))))

You don't know what, if any qualifications your therapist had since he/she was available through uni.

Also, no one will ever be able to say anything that will make you want to go to a t or pdoc until you decide you want to get better. There is no point in saying anything.

Hugs,

Jan

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January is right on target. If you do not wish to be helped or to do the work then you will not benefit from therapy. Also, it is important that you get a therapist that is qualified and that you feel comfortable working with that individual. You mentioned earlier that you thought Jan's statement was condemnatory. It was not condeming you for your decisions but just stating the truth that if you do not wish to be helped... it will certainly be hard to help you. It is difficult to admit that you need help...and going to the T's office is not necessarily fun... at least initially.. or overall. It is a wonderful and often positive experience but it is an incredibly difficult journey that you need to really be vested in to get anywhere with. It is serious business. It is your life....and your future and that is what therapy is all about. It is an investment in your hopes, dreams, realities and possibilities for your life and that is why it is a worthwhile journey. Accept what you have (and that is not always easy ) or take action to change it. Therapy is the way to do that with a knowledgeable, independent opinion and insight that is special to you and all that surrounds you and what makes you you.

And no life will not be perfect... but it will be better than putting up with all that you mentioned in your list of potential concerns. Therapy reaches the heart and the psyche to help us be more comfortable with and understand ourselves and learn how to do things differently.

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silver_queen said:
Sidony, we're all influenced by our upbringing, whether it's good, bad, or mixed. Now your t is teaching you new life skills, you say... but he too has been influenced by his own past, so why does that give him the right to teach you 'skills' when he might have his own issues and prejudices (and might be unintentionally influencing you with them?) I mean that his own problems and issues might negatively influence what he teaches you. For example he might react in one way to a situation - and so he teaches you that's the best way to behave - but in reality there might be another and better way to react. But he's missed that (for some reason) but you have learned another maladaptive way... and you'd think it's good.

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Any therapist worth their salt has had extensive therapy to understand their own journey and to understand what might happen that could impede being a therapist. They understand. They also have specialized schooling... and lots of it... to know what is going on within themselves, know how to look at their issues, and how to perform functional therapy. They know their own buttons and hopefully know how to control them or often they will let the client in on how that could affect therapy if they feel it has. That is the makings of a fine therapist... that can even admit they are human.

Silver, a good therapist would be completely different to the counsellor you saw at university. They will be able to access the core of your concerns which friends and family can't do (and neither can friends or family be objective like a therapist should be) They work with the heart and not just the intellect..... you just can't learn what you need to from books, or change the way you need to, or you would have done so by now?

Silver, so much has been said since I posted yesterday!

I read that most people enter therapy because they are experiencing some sort of Axis I condition like depression, anxiety etc.

Usually a diagnostic test is done but this is not always the case. Either way though, in time, the therapist, if he/she is good and we are comfortable, the therapist is able to build a relationship with you and through that see how you interact with him/her. What this does is show the therapist how you interact with him/her and how it makes them feel. Likely whatever emotions we evoke in the therapist, we also evoke in others in our personal life.

Therapists are human and they will inevitably encounter all sorts of feelings while working with you such as happiness, sadness, anger etc. They make judgements like we all do. The difference is how do they manage that and ensure their feelings do not interfere with our progress.

How this can interfere with therapy is if the therapist has not worked out their own issues. I believe licensed Psychologists have supervision too which means that they are in therapy of their own regularly. They discuss how they are feeling about their patients' progress, concerns about their own feelings etc.

I chose a licensed Psychologist (PhD) from my health plan that specialized in diagnostic testing and treatment of depression and anxiety.

I did not know at the time what exactly was wrong with me. I thought it was just depression and I was tested for that and Adult ADD. Long story short, this is my true diagnosis but guess what? Because I was finally able to build a relationship with my current T, what is unfolding now is amazing. There is not necessarily an added diagnosis, but he has been able to show me my maladaptive behaviors, thoughts and coping mechanisms that lead to more bad behavior and make me feel worse etc.

I'll go further. For example, ever since the age of 7 years of age, I have pretty much picked at my fingers until they bled. My dad does the same thing. Every doctor, therapist and person in my life growing up saw the condition of my fingers. It was hard to hide but it was never talked about. I was just told it was a bad habit and I'll grow out of it.

Well now I'm 37 and didn't grow out of it. I've learned recently that this is a condition that is part of OCD and it is anxiety based. At first, my T suggested using rubberbands on my wrists and snap them whenever I felt like going near my fingers. That worked for awhile and then that didn't work totally for me because I kept forgetting to put the rubberbands on. He suggested getting nails put on. The rationale was they are thicker and I wouldn't be able to pick at my fingers.

So, I now have beautifully manicured solar nails!!! Even after all the years of picking at them, they look brand new. But before this sort of thing could even work for me nails or not, I had to start feeling better about myself and the anxiety, obsessive thoughts and depression had to be dealt with first. Otherwise, I would have found some other way to take my anxiety out on myself.

This is just one example I have many more but I don't want to bore you or anyone...giggle. Does this help?

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silver_queen said:

pinksoil, it's good to see this from the perspective of a t! (or at least, one in training )
So you're learning... how do you yourself know that the things you're learning are 'true'? For example I once read a book about Freud and I think some of the things he said are a bit... weird. You could interpret that as me being resistant and not wanting to face up to the truth, or alternatively that I plain just don't agree with it. From the impression I get those are conclusions that Freud drew, rather than being verifiable truth. If it is based on somebody's (possibly misguided) conclusions, then doesn't that mean that your own understanding of psychological issues may be incorrect, and so this would influence your understanding of a client, and so this would mean that the way you treat the client may not *really* be in the best interest of the client (though you believe and want it to be the best interest). I'm not quite sure if I've expressed what I'm meaning to say here... please ask if it doesn't make sense

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Well, the thing about psychology is that we know certain things are true-- we know that because we do studies and experiments, and we can infer case and effect. However, psychology is based upon countless theories that are just that-- theories. And while none are what you would call "proven" it's wonderful because there are so many, you are bound to be able to match anyone with a theoretical orientation-- thus finding a treatment that works for them. And that is how you have to accept psychology. It is not medical. You can't just take a blood test and figure out what's wrong, based on the numbers that you get. It is a science based on theories that cannot be proven. But-- there are results. Just because you can't prove that what Freud came up with is "right" you can prove that psychoanalysis works for people. That's what the studies are for. Same for cognitive therapy, systems theory, humanistic, object relations, behaviorism, etc. They have all worked in some way for some people at some point. That's the beauty of psychology-- you don't have to agree with certain theories-- you can choose to accept or not accept what you read-- and there will always be plenty more that you can research to see what you identify best with.