Psychotherapy inherently flawed?

I still believe a lot of this would be different if therapists would just explain what they do and why and do so directly and without all the game playing they do. It does amuse me they accuse clients of playing games when some of them never answer a question directly, deliberately manipulate clients to the ends the therapists are going for as opposed to what the client is looking for, deny what they have done, and label the client while refusing to continue with them.

I am scared of this thread because I don't know what to believe. When I asked my T if she really cared about me or was she playing a role, she said she really cares. I believe her but I also think the concerns raised in this thread are legitimate. T does what she thinks is in my best interests, based on her expertise, not caring. I asked her Tuesday if answering my emails is too much, and she said, no, those rules changed from the past. I don't think it's because she cares; it's probably what she learned about attachment therapy.

I do think each therapy relationship is unique, but so many of us think we're getting something we need from our T, but then something happens to make us think it wasn't real. Then we're devastated. It depends why you're in therapy as to the outcome. Attachment issues are harder to treat. It's hard to know what you're in for when you start therapy. I for sure did not know, and then I got hooked.

Rainbow, don't let the thread scare you about your t caring. I question so many things about the theraputic relationship but I don't question whether my t has some level of genuine caring or I can promise you that he would have referred my crazy self or long ago. I believe most people choose the theraputic field because they truly want to help people, but many are still wounded themselves and many negative things can come about.

I question my t on a weekly basis and bless his heart... I know he has to shake his head in bewilderment many times when I leave, but when I so myself and look. . I have to see his constant help, words and actions (even when he has failed me), I believe he truly cares but yes, it is within a specific set of theraputic boundaries. Don't let this thread make you disbelieve or trust your t. Only you and him/her know the truth of your relationship.

My T just told me last week that for the past X amount of years, I have not been able to think myself out of my problem, and as much as i detest that, she probably is right (for me). I've thought and thought and thought for 12 years about this problem and am no closer to an answer. She said that it is "emotional work" **cue Stopdog ACKING** that will get me closer. I don't know how that is going to look like, and I am taking it with a grain of salt, but I do trust my T enough to keep trying (for now).

Several years ago I posted a comment on a blog about retraumatization in therapy. It's close enough to this thread that I hope it's not out of line for me to post it here, too.

My opinion is that what is missing in therapy is a thorough, or good enough, theory of the development of identity or the sense of self. But that's just my idea, from my experience. And I'm still working with the same T, better, I guess, hoping to be finished soon.

It's easy for me to have moments where I think my therapist doesn't care at all and is just using me for money, but there are other times where I think that's not true at all, and something must be wrong with me that I could suddenly mistrust him so much. How am I supposed to know what's real if he won't tell me? And maybe the answer is, even if he said something I would be insecure about whether he lied or not...

IMO-

Therapy is just a tool, it can't help you unless you personally decide how to make use of it. There is definitely no way to just have healing performed on you. But the feelings that come up in therapy are valuable if you use them to understand and modify your behavior to create more and more stable good feelings in your life. If you just want to enact (by either seeking out or seeking relief from) the feelings, within therapy, then you cannot grow, no matter how good of a T you have.

Therapy is very similar to an awful round of Who's On First. Your Unconscious is on second and he thinks he's Jacoby Ellsbury, he's either running or he's put himself on the disabled list yet again. Thats who youre bringing into therapy - not the catcher or the pitcher, who you can actually talk to and plan a strategy with.

I disagree that this is mandatory. I think it is malarky that therapists have sold in order to keep themselves seemingly above mere clients and that people have bought because they believe in titles - much like snake oil or anything sold by dr. oz.

I would argue that nearly anyone on the receiving end of what my last therapist was sending out would be confused, insecure or not. Seems to me the process is inherently confusing and disorienting, given the way it conflates a business relationship with a personal one and with its unnatural boundaries. Seems a bit disingenuous to suggest the client is responsible for the confusion. I think unconditional acceptance is impossible and if a client is experiencing something like it, the therapist must be acting, which is yet another source of confusion.

Wow they are vastly different to me. Other relationships allow for shared intimacy and shared vulnerability. If you ask a question of a person with whom you have a real world relationship, you at least have a fair chance of an honest answer. With a therapist it is often unclear whether a question should be asked at all, let alone whether the answer will be genuine. Seems like many therapists are masters of evasion and obfuscation.

But some of us lacked the self-knowledge and/or self-cohesion going into therapy to do that. There’s a basic flaw in therapy, I think. Saying that’s a basic flaw in the client gets people like me nowhere. We come to therapy for help with things we have come to the end of the road trying to help ourselves with. Therapists didn’t diagnose or otherwise tell me that I lacked self-cohesion and other flaws. And of course I had a lot of the inherent flaws in me covered up – not consciously being fake but you can’t function in the regular world with flaws, certainly not in my family of origin. Exposing, helping me get to the core of some of those flaws was, I hoped and expected, a job of therapy. And hence the therapist to at least help with.

The attachment theory, trauma, and object relations therapy that my current T uses try to address some of those issues. But previous therapists did not. And in their blaming responses to things I would never say outside of therapy, they hurt me. Only I didn’t even know that, just that I got angry, but since I didn’t behave in the real world like I did in therapy, I had no reference point for the problem being “in me”. That which was in me only came out because I allowed it to in therapy and then the therapist couldn’t handle it! Good grief! Doesn’t anybody else see the problem being in “therapy”, even if the problem started with me? I went for “help” for goodness sake!!

Well, i guess everybody's love doesnt HAVE to be like a red red rose! I didnt realize mandatory was part of the definition of metaphor.
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Hello. I have thought about this and have osrt of figured out that most everyone in my life betrayed, abandoned, and hurt me over and over again and that as a result I have never been able to trust anyone with my feeligns and life expereinces. When My DID got so bad I found myself in therapy after enough time feelings came out and I could talk about things and feelings and experiences for th first time.

I think it was a natural consequence of my finally being able to confide and learn trust (over a very long period of time) that this therapist would not exploit me or betray me --that what I began to feel for him felt like love.

Before I went into therapy, I was missing so much for so long. There was so much pain, so many empty spaces , so much confusion, fear, and outright grief. My therapist represented someone good. He represented someone who cared.

Saying that, I also have to say that like you, I got to a point where it made me very angry that I was basically paying someone to be nice to me. Then I felt like such a waste because this 'love I felt and my relationship with my doc was basically artificial, and I knew that. I think it also made me angry that I had no real friends. I wasnt close to anyone at all like my therapist.

Therapy takes time and our relationships with our therapists only work when based upon trust. Frankly, now that years have passed and my therapist has retired , I realized I never really knew him. I saw what I wanted to in him because I had put so many things on him, attached so many feelings to him. I was discovering and sharing things about myself and my life. It was so real, so stripped down and real. Sharing my most intimate feelings, fear, sins, crimes, whatever- made me feel so slose to him.

Being able to bare your soul wihtout fear of being rejected or made fun or or trivialized in any way is what makes therapy work. Feeling as if you are in love with your shrink somes with that. What I have found helps to put things into perspective se we can recognise this 'love' as being part and parcel of therapy is to ahve other things helping keep me on track. I have used yoga, meditation, journaling, painting, and dance as some of the means through which I have been able to express myself and grow stronger as an individual. As I grow stronger as an individual I feel stronger in myself and my worth as a person.

I wish there was more I caould say to make you feel better. Just remember that therapy can help you know and find and love yourself so you can embrace life and make a palce for yourself. Its really hard, but it pays off. Give yourself some credit for having the courage to want to fix things.

Also, in defense of shrinks, being a therapist has got to be a real trial. Some of the things they hear are absolutely heart rendering. they can only do so much. It cant be easy.
And while it is true, that our therapists cant love us patients the way we sometimes want them to, we need to admit that they show us love in other ways --thorugh a true dedication and commitment to helping us and accepting us no matter what .

Quote BudFox: "Wow they are vastly different to me. Other relationships allow for shared intimacy and shared vulnerability. If you ask a question of a person with whom you have a real world relationship, you at least have a fair chance of an honest answer. With a therapist it is often unclear whether a question should be asked at all, let alone whether the answer will be genuine. Seems like many therapists are masters of evasion and obfuscation."

Having read this forum for about 3 years, I'm not convinced that other relationships allow for shared intimacy and shared vulnerability for many people on this forum. This forum does that for many, myself included. But are we really risking much behind our keyboards? Most people here do not have those relationships, because of bad beginnings or their attachment styles causes similar kinds of ruptures that happen in therapy, whether it be friends, kids, lovers...I believe therapy can help some learn how to be more intimate and vulnerable in these relationships. I have some, and I'm still feeling my way around, even though some of those strong relationships go back 30 plus years. I am at the point of what I shared with my therapist, and on this forum I share with intimate friends. So, I have to disagree that in a "real world" relationship you at least have a chance for an honest answer. How many times have you stopped yourself from asking an intimate friend or good friend a question? For me, it was all the time. Even still. It's a learning process. I personally got what I consider to be honest answers from my therapist, because I learned how to not fear asking the questions. But of course, my therapy was a tad different than most.

Also, I have to disagree that any relationship, including parent/child, is unconditional though we may try. I would not be on this forum if my parents accepted me no matter what. If was my therapist that did that as best she could that helped me to move forward, and away from my bitterness.

I agree with you. A lot of therapy is "malarkey." Yet, for many of us we are/were able to use it to our advantage and make it/them work for us.

I want to reply to this part specifically: "That which was in me only came out because I allowed it to in therapy and then the therapist couldn’t handle it! "

It's an interesting thing because, yes, therapy often creates these situations. I don't believe that, as a relationship, the T relationship is any different than any other relationship, aside from the random factors of how the T and client match up as people. Because ultimately the truth is, unless they have a serious problem, T cannot accept or remain neutral about everything a client could possibly tell them. They are human.

There are a lot of uncomfortable things you can tell your T that don't foster any intimacy or connection. It might expose your vulnerabilities, but it doesn't necessarily make you actually vulnerable.

Like in my situation, I know I'm a master of not saying The Thing I'm Not Saying. If I won't say that thing, I can even talk about my otherwise most embarrassing, scandalous, weird memories, memories that likely have no personal relevance to my T, and I will get nowhere, because I'm specifically not saying the thing that I know would really affect T. T's are real people, they will have real reactions to things that are relevant to them, whether they want to or not.

What I mean by the thing I'm not saying, for me is like, the difference between "I want to be loved" vs. "T, I wish you would love me." The former does not foster a genuine connection with the T, the latter will make or break a connection because it forces the T to reply with regard to both of our feelings. And if I want a genuine reaction to my genuine feelings, I certainly have to accept that the reaction might not be the one I want, because that is reality.

Anyway, it's different for everyone, but it can't be the T's responsibility to heal the client because the simple reality is that the majority of the factors are completely in the client's control. Which T to see, how frequently, for what reasons and for how long, how much to trust the T, how much and what to share, in what format, and how much to cooperate or resist the T, etc.

If a T tried to force a client to heal, one that didn't really want to face the things they need to face to heal, even if the client claimed to want healing, that client would still become upset and leave or lash out at the T. It is the client's responsibility to make good use of therapy because nobody can do it for them. The client will only be receptive to the growth they are actually willing to tolerate.

I mean, if the way you process information is not healthy, then also your evaluation of whether or not a T is good is also probably unhealthy. It's kinda like being that one girl who always dates guys who are horrible for her, and everyone can see it and is baffled why she puts up with it. It's because she sees something in those guys that causes her to idealize them and ignore their flaws.

The point is, growth happens by becoming generally less dependent on others and external factors. If you are satisfied with being dependent on your T, you can't grow. And if you need to reserve the right to blame your T for therapy's failure, then you are dependent on your T. Don't get me wrong, your T might have actually failed you. Frankly, just like lots of people will fail you in life. Blaming T, blaming therapy as a whole entity, these are all excuses to keep the problem outside oneself, even if it is the truth that therapy could be better, or an individual therapist could be better, it is also the truth that you can learn to spare yourself those disappointments by becoming more selective, responsible, attentive and honest with yourself. Any other person or thing or commitment would fill the place of T if T were not there.

So you can end up thinking over and over again that T betrayed your trust, and feeling upset about that, or you can use that experience to realize that you have to decide for yourself whether or not people are trustworthy, even when they claim to be, and are "supposed" to be. That is reality. And reality sucks. Reality is hard and harsh and therapy cannot change that, even within the office. It's certainly more comfortable to depend on and look to others than carve out your own path, but of course in the long run that is unsatisfying.

However, if therapy can get you to say the thing you're not saying, then whatever happens, at least you know you are going in the right direction. The T who leaves you when you say the thing you weren't saying--that T was never any better for you than the moment when they left you, so by saying it, you spare yourself that many more sessions with a T who is not as trustworthy as you think they are.

Actually - I did not call all of therapy malarky. If it helped you great. Any number of things can help people.

But what I was calling malarky was the idea that if they don't make it mysterious and unclear, if they actually were to be clear and forthcoming about what they are doing, that it would not work at all. The idea that clients are so incapable of understanding or being able to still use therapy appropriately if those guys would stop all of the smoke and mirrors and game playing and just explain to clients how what they are doing at the client works or at least is supposed to work - it would not. If you found the smoke and mirrors game useful - good - but malarky that it is the only way.

I know, you've read a lot about therapy. I thought that the books and stuff that I've read do explain how therapy is supposed to work. I'm surprised at you saying that it is not explained. Is it that you just don't buy it? (I hope that's not a British phrase that isn't understood over the pond).

I'm not saying you are calling "all" therapy malarkey. And, there are many things that can help, besides therapy or in conjunction with therapy. Those: ideas, lack of clarity, game playing, the way therapist see clients, the smoke in mirrors, etc., and all that you mention in your posts are what I see as the malarkey.

I actually agree with you. And, like you, myself included, have figured out a way to make therapist/what they do or don't do work to our advantage.

Sorry, if I was not clear in my previous post.

In reading their text books - the theory seems to go to blame the client but it is in practice I find the most obfuscation -

(therapist tells me some completely unsolicited thing about themselves)
Me: why did you tell me that? What are you trying to get at?
Therapist: I don't know - I just did

_____
Me: Is there any structure or plan going on here
Therapist: I have a plan
Me: What is it
Therapist: I can't explain it to you

________
Therapist: That seems like what a lot of people would feel.
Me: what is the point of what you just said? I was not saying I was the only person on the planet to feel X. I am not worried about whether it is usual or not.
Therapist: I don't know
Me: Then why did you say it?
Therapist: If you don't know, I can't explain it

___________
(therapist says something like "you are a good attorney" or "you are X" out of the blue)
Me: how would you possibly think you know such a thing? Why do you think I would care what you think about X?
Therapist: I just guess you would be X
Me: But what difference is it supposed to make to me what you think about it? Particularly when you don't know it.
Therapist: I don't know

And so then I tell the woman to quit talking at all since it makes no sense, she has no purpose, and I don't find it useful

sort of thing

I really agree with this. I was totally retraumautized by my first therapist, and one of the big reasons why was that my therapist's orientation did not allow him to suggest anything actually useful to me to help me cope on my own between sessions. It was like the relationship was meant to be some magical process, which I totally didn't understand, and giving me useful ways of helping myself would have been interfering with the magic somehow. It was frightening, and he didn't help me with these enormous feelings of trauma that came up and engulfed me.

My therapist now, in contrast, is totally transparent. I've read books he's written- one for clients and one for therapists, so I know exactly what he's trying to do. He started out as a CBT guy but has gone along with that whole "third-wave" of CBT which seems to differ radically from what I thought of as CBT. (More meditation, mindfulness, compassion, acceptance, values-based stuff. Not focused on that "challenging your thinking", which as a pretty rational person I found totally insulting and invalidating when I tried out a therapist who did that stuff.)

There's no game-playing, and he's upfront about how he's trying to help me, and we work together on figuring out ways I can help myself. We have an extremely strong relationship, which is super-helpful, but neither of us believe that the relationship is the end-all and be-all. I have so much more power than that to help myself.

This, and other peoples posts, make me feel like the emphasis is too much on what the t does. Like questioning all the time what your personal trainer is asking you to do or coaching you through, or complaining that his muscles arent big enough. swim the dam laps - then maybe we'll talk. If we still need to.

It will not work that way for me. I am not swimming their damn laps without knowing how it is supposed to help me.
If it works for you to not know - great. But it will not work for me.

Its not that it works for me not to know.

Its like a baby learning how to walk.

We are learning something new and constructive.

Yes. Psychotherapy is inherently flawed. I just don't know an alternative, having tried many different methods and spent tens of thousands of dollars. I agree with stopdog's point that many of them treat it like a form of mystery or magic that can't work if it's revealed. It should be no different than going to a doctor. I can't imagine a pcp not explaining what they are doing. Even surgeons will explain a procedure, then describe the risks of failure or complications.