Couch 121: An Intimate Chat.

Wow Crocus deep thoughts. If I just answered 'no' for right now, then went away to ruminate for a while, I could come back with a much better answer.

I feel like I've been given a role that I can never deviate from, and the woman who I play has no voice. Even with my sister and my kids, the people I should be most free with, I stifle my thoughts and opinions.

I feel I have a voice - I don't usually think about it - and not at all using that term, but I do believe I have it. I mean - I am an adult in a western country-who would be able to stop me - who else has the right or position where it is allowed or not? People might not like it or listen or care, and there might be consequences -but certainly I have one. I think it is possible to be friends even where one does not be all revealing. I have various types of friendships and enjoy them all but they are not all the same type and have varying degrees of how I interact with them in terms of telling people my actual thoughts. I have little desire to tell anyone about feelings. I don't really want to hear about their feelings either much.

I have always felt like I don't have a voice where my mother/siblings are concerned. But I deal with that by living far away from them and that solves the problem except for infrequent visits I feel compelled to make.

I haven't had a voice for much of my marriage - but that is changing - I am learning to express my thoughts and feelings out loud instead of mumbling them under my breath and crying in frustration. This allowing myself to feel my feelings, and let them go, as opposed to what happens when I don't allow myself to feel - I get overwhelmed as they overtake me and I just end up a puddle of tears which doesn't do anybody any good. Allowing myself to feel them, and express them, I don't become that emotional mess.

Now if I could have just taken that learning into therapy with me yesterday, it would have helped. I should have told her how I felt like she was dismissing my need to talk about ending, like she was forcing on me the whole taking a break thing instead, and just discounting what I was saying about needing to honor the work that we have done etc. Well I'm going to take what I've learned in there with me in 2 weeks and make her talk about it whether she wants to or not and I might just say if I can't talk about what I want to talk about on my dime then I'm not paying you today because I feel a little angry about how that went yesterday.

loud thoughts are the worst

Great question crocus. I was aware last night that choosing to watch madama butterfly was choosing my voice. My ongoing conflicts this past year with my aunts and my brother have been about, who is going to speak to or for me now that my mother is dead? The only place i have a voice is in t. Generally, the only voice i have is if i withhold it.

Is having a voice different than having choice? I feel I have both - but to me, it sounds like people are talking about both - and they are not exactly the same to me.

I've been thinking a lot about this -- I define voice like you do and so, I do think I have a voice (by that definition, I think everyone does, whether or not they are aware of it).

I don't expect to have a voice at work or in other casual / superficial settings (E.g. some random group event with colleagues etc).

But, I have increasingly expected to have a voice with friends -- all friends. I'd perfected the art of being able to have seemingly close friendships and even romantic relationships with a whole lot of people with who I seemed to have no voice whatsoever.

But, then something's shifted over the last few years and now I can't seem to be able to do that any more.

I wish I could say that the end result has been joy or something but in reality, it's just meant that I cut off pretty much everyone from my former life but haven't managed to replace them with people with who I do feel like I have a 'voice'. I'm still in touch with a few people long distance and do have some casual acquaintance-like friendships with people in town but it's not remotely at the level of closeness that I'm used to / expect in a friendship.

So, for all practical purposes, have been at my curmudgeonly lone ranger best / worst for a really long time. I've shut down any attempt to talk about it in therapy because Ts seemed to get into the whole 'this is a childhood pattern' (despite the fact that it's really not) business and then offer banal suggestions (a la Current T) about "meeting someone" (to date etc) or wanting me to answer a question like "who are your friends?" (on Current T's list of trite questions that I offered to directly answer but she said she didn't want a direct answer unless of course I "really wanted to talk about it?" but it's "interesting" that I haven't brought it up in therapy and if I brought it up in therapy magically organically on my own, it would be "so much more powerful"....... ).

ETA: Of course, family = no voice = need for therapy.

I have a voice in my professional life and with the few friends I have. And in therapy, of course.

I have a voice with my family, although they hear it through their own filter so sometimes I feel unheard. They will listen unless I get "too loud" or uncomfortable for them. Much of the time I don't even try to be heard, but that's on me rather than them.

I won't have relationships where I don't have a voice, which may explain my lack of romantic partners. If I were willing to go voiceless, or even tone it down, I'm sure I would have found several someones by now.

I have decided, that I am going to my next session to talk about the anger I am feeling at her since yesterday, because to me it felt like she was just discounting my feelings about wanting to talk about ending (because I wanted to know how it is done, to give me closure, and to honor the work we've done) I even told her I wasn't saying I was quitting anytime soon but I just wanted to talk about it - that I wanted to talk about it because I feel like I am in a place now where I can without getting all emotional like in the past - but I felt like she wasn't even listening because she just said (again) that she still talks to someone twice a month and likely always will (well pin a rose on your nose, t!) and how valuable it is having someone who 'gets' you to be a witness to your process. Yeah yeah, I know all that. But the fact remains that I cannot realistically do this forever. I'm beginning to think I've had just about enough of this navel-gazing. Besides that before I had really even said anything she started in on the "taking a break" thing thinking that she knew what I was thinking but wasn't going to bring it up. Even though I had planned to and I told her I had planned to. Yeah, I'm feeling angry at t. Ok enough with ranting about it here. I'm going outside to sit under my tree and feel through these feelings and then send them away. That way by the time she responds to my long email from last night (if she even does) I'll have calmed down. I do not like feeling angry. But I'm letting myself feel it anyway, because that's the only way I want to deal with it. By feeling it, learning from it if there's a lesson in it, then letting it go. I am not going to fight it with tears and be an emotional crabass to h and son the rest of the day like in the past.

Something SD said made me think of this. I am my own censor. I fear (a Big Bad yet unknown thing) something horrible will happen as a result of me changing this lifetime behavior, this silence. This is a stupid thing to fear. Not like people will die if I send back my food in a restaurant if it's not what I ordered. Not like the sky will fall if I tell someone they pissed me off. But, since I can't quantify exactly what the Big Bad is, I cower. Whatever it is, it's too terrible to bring forth, and that is why I bite my tongue and stifle myself.

Great topic Crocus!

I feel like I have a voice, the exception being the relationship with future-ex (which is why not being in contact now is an excellent idea, or I'd get sucked back in).

And with my mother, I know I could easily have a voice and it would be okay, but I hesitate to tell her about my problems to avoid causing her pain. Which might be a moot point now since future-ex has started contacting her to try to get through to me.

Future-ex, by the way, had the same complaining in restaurants problem. I lost track of the number of times I'd encourage him to call the server about his food, or complain about getting the wrong change, or cut the tip to show what he thought of the service. All of which I would do for myself without a second thought, but I did not want to do them for him.

I believe I have a voice. It just isn't listened to by pretty much anyone, not even the people who pay me for advice, and with the later, I just let it go and do whatever idea they have until it falls apart and we go back to mine.

It's hit and miss with my therapist in that I sometimes have to keep hammering away until I feel heard. But if I were to say that I'm terminating, she would hear that and say fine. She's not like Art's at all in that way.

But the worst is family. It's like there's a giant sized ruh roh hole in the air when we interact, and if the conversation is in any way about my life (which only one of them asks about), they literally look away. I really do hate these people.

In listening to my session from the other day, I heard myself go from deep topic A to diversionary topic B in the same sentence, without any kind of segue. It's weird to listen to a collision of topics like that. My therapist didn't even blink and just went along with the new topic. No wonder this is taking so long.

I was diversionary all over the place in t yesterday until i tripped and fell into some very deep territory. And then i didn't want to go home. Didn't want to be there either. Blech.

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So much for not obsessively checking my email. Goldarnit. I'm going to go do laundry and binge-watch Ghost Whisperer and try to stay away from my email.

my kitty rules me too
Great question Crocus!! (Sorry SD and others...I love exclamation points. I just had refrain from putting one at the end of that sentence )

With my closest friends, yes I feel like I have a voice. It hasn't always been that way, though. Sometime in college I realized that I never shared my opinon on things because I was afraid of being judged. I got lucky and got a great group of friends, and over years and years of steady friendship, I was able to "allow" myself my own opinions with my friends and be okay when we disagreed.

At work, I know that my co-teacher listens to me, and because of her general openness and laid-backness (?? for lack of a better term), over the years I slowly allowed my opinion of the classroom and the kids to be shared with her.

I only feel comfortable sharing my "voice" when I am relatively safe feeling that I won't be rejected as a person due to my opinions or thoughts.

for instance, if you feel that you have no voice that counts around them - or is it possible (in your individual experience, because as always there are no universal truths) to have a working friendship anyway?
In regards to this question...I am not sure I would consider a friendship where I feel like I have no voice, a very good friendship. Maybe more like acquaitance friendship, not very deep.

Mine does that too. The weird thing is he started doing it right after we moved in July. Never even sat on my lap before the move. Now I have to pry him off

Now that would be an amazing invention. I bet you would get rich!

Checking in- still going thru a very rough patch regarding the state of my home. It's an awful feeling not being totally independent. I have felt panicked for more than a week then Thursday, I felt I didn't have enough energy to feel panic anymore although my circumstances haven't changed. I feel more zoned out. I can only maintain panic for so long...

Saw T yesterday. I feel exhausted. After we talked about all the above, I brought up my attachment feelings for her. I think, in my past, these kinds of feelings for some male T's have gotten me in trouble. Told T I need to learn how to not get taken advantage if I ever have a male T again. She said- telling her about those feelings are fine, but she advised me not to tell any future male T if I develop attachment/caring feelings for them. She said, since i have had significant trouble/damage from male T's in the past, it might be more helpful to keep those type of feelings to myself.

That seems obvious, now but I hadn't even thought of that. I always tell everything.
Good to know.

What I bolded - I just realized that it isn't my t at all - it is of course, me. I haven't said "I am terminating." I asked to talk about terminating. I'm not ready to yet. That must be the key to the whole thing right there. I need to just keep my mouth shut until I'm ready and then just say it straight out like that and save the talking about it for after I make the pronouncement.

Art - I see no reason why you should not talk about terminating before you're ready to terminate. That's you taking care of you. I don't think keeping your mouth shut is the answer.

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Speaking of terminating, will be doing so this week (with current T).

Wondering if I should just email some version of 'So long and thanks for all the fish' and be done? Or, actually show up (in which case I'm utterly unsure if I'll actually walk away having terminated).

The pros of emailing: There've been endless rounds of me starting with 'I'm terminating' / 'taking a break because.....(some version of 'You suck as a therapist'; 'I need a break from therapy' etc) conversations which have all seemed to devolve into current T saying some or all of the following -- 'You only think I suck because of your attachment / Mom / family issues'; 'You are trying to escape from your attachment to me'; 'You are just trying to escape from your emotions as always'; 'If you stop letting out your emotions, your dark thoughts will return'; 'Try meds / group DBT along with therapy and things will be better'; etc.

So, I come away utterly confused (I know I sound different in writing but in person it's like my brain gets six thousand kinds of foggy in trying to talk difficult stuff with anyone else).

She also just told me that she's been using the borderline diagnosis framework (apparently I have borderline traits although she doesn't see me as a 'borderline client') in dealing with me -- it explains so much of why I feel like things have been really 'off' in therapy for so long. I don't have a problem (the usual stigma crap) about the borderline idea but I don't think it's the right diagnosis for me (although I'm pretty certain that I have some of the usual borderline co-morbidities such as depression and anxiety which she seems to have entirely missed -- she seemed surprised that I was depressed when I 'showed' her [let out the sadness] my depression for the first time rather than just talking about it as I have done all along).

The cons of emailing: I guess I have been seeing her for more than a year and I wonder if I'll have some sort of regret about not doing it in person? I can't tell. Also, emailing doesn't seem like an adult / mature way of doing it (since there are no ethical violations here etc)? So, I feel like it would be a step backwards insofar as my attempt at adulting more goes?

Then again, I know that I've come away feeling a lot worse after sessions (compared to how I felt walking in), especially these last few weeks. And, I'm really not sure I want to go through it again. But, then maybe I'm taking the easy way out by emailing?

For what it's worth, she's also acknowledged that we've had endless termination conversations -- so, it's highly unlikely that any brand new stuff will come up in a final in-person conversation.

Any thoughts / wisdom / advice greatly appreciated!

(And, sorry about spamming the couch with my T drama!)

So long, farewell, Auf Wiederschen, goodbye...



I have never actually terminated in person. No. 1 I just told I was no longer her client via email, though as you know I've been considering making an appointment just to have it out with her, because, yeah, no closure.

No. 3 and I terminated during a Skype session. It was kind of anti-climactic, and no, I don't feel a sense of closure. I'd vote for doing it in person if you think you can stand it.

True that -- I do have that sense of lack of closure looming over several past relationships.

So yeah, doing it in person does have that real advantage.

That's why I want to talk about it first - because I want to know how in the world we DO this thing, so I can make sure I'll get said closure. But I couldn't get her to go there yesterday - well, beyond her asking me what I would want it to look like and I said I didn't really know beyond wanting an ending that honors all the work I've done/we've done together. From that there was no more discussion, she went right into talking about how it's good to have someone who gets my psychology and who is a witness to my process and how she still talks to someone. And she mentioned that I hadn't had a dream indicating ending. And that is where I let her change the subject to my recent dreams and on we went.

Maybe I'll try again in 2 weeks, this time from the angle of "taking a break" and knowing her door is always open like she said. My problem with that is if I decide it's a permanent break then there's no closure. BUT wait. I just answered my own dilemma. If we do go that route, when I am ready I announce I am taking a break and I know her door is open, if say 2 months into said break I decide to make it permanent hopefully I will have figured out what I would want out of a couple termination sessions, and call her and ask for what I want.

Maybe I'm trying to control this too much. I dunno.

Whatever for now. I'm not ready to quit yet anyway. It did feel good, I must admit, to at least sort of talk about it with her without sitting there bawling like has happened in the past when I'd brought it up. My session yesterday was so weirdly all over the place. Let it go, Artie, let it go.