Cycle of wanting reassurance from T

So, I've found I tend to get stuck in this cycle with my marriage counselor (for whom I have some strong paternal transference and attachment) and also sometimes with my individual T (some maternal transference). Where there's something I'm worried about that came up during session, so then I keep obsessing about it (OCD is one of my issues, along with anxiety), then e-mail MC looking for reassurance. Except that I'm not that straightforward about it.

It tends to be that I initially send some e-mail like, "I just want to clarify some stuff from session" or "I had this insight on the way home that I wanted to share." When, yeah, that's part of it, but really, it's that I'm feeling insecure or vulnerable or something like that after a session and want to sort of confirm that the connection is still there. So maybe I'll send that e-mail, and MC might or might not respond. If he doesn't, then I might send something else that's like, "OK, so here's what I'm really thinking/concerned about/looking for--could you please respond?" And then he often does, with something fairly reassuring--or sometimes just the fact that he's responding at all is like, OK, he's still there.

It makes me feel better for a while, but then inevitably, I want/need that reassurance again. I know much of this is stuff coming from my past (childhood, etc.), and we've discussed that in there, plus I've discussed it extensively with my T. MC (and T) has said that it's not good for him to keep reassuring me, because then I'll just keep wanting more reassurance. (Yet, he tends to keep reassuring me anyway...) I know I need to figure out how to reassure myself--which I've gotten a bit better at, but still look for it from him and T at times.

So, a couple questions here. First, if I'm looking for reassurance, is it better to just be completely straightforward and ask for it, instead of sending some rambling e-mail? When really all I want to know is, "You're still here and still care, right? And you're not going anywhere?" Like, should I just say, "Hi, feeling a little insecure after our last session. You're still there, right?" Is this something I should just ask MC or T in session, like is it OK to just straight up ask for reassurance like that?

The other, obvious question is: How do I break this cycle? How do I learn to not need the outside reassurance and just trust in the relationship (whether it's with MC/T, H, friends, etc.)?

Wow. You know, there were times when i did exactly that, just quick little calls or emails or texts, just checking to see if he was there. And i got a FEEEELING from your post here that like finally closed the circuit on WHY or how that was so important.

1, its a clean, direct ask, stripped of any frills. So you can be SURE the question was heard, and you can be sure they are answering the right question.

2. Then its like, okay, all systems go, prepare for liftoff. You can see how if a parent hedged on their answer, it could get a kid stuck in ocd and uncertainty.

I understand this cycle. It is much less intense for me than it was years ago.

I was just talking to my t about it today. He said mid week he had an inking to call or email me but he couldn't explain why. He ended up with an emergency with another patient and was distracted. I had the urge to call but resisted

It is true that I had a stressful week but I try to resist the urge to contact him unless I'm really hurting. After years of doing exactly what you describe I think it goes away on its own. I know t is reliable and there if I need him as my other t's have been. So I feel more secure and able to tell myself I'm ok right now.

You could try, when you have the urge for reassurance, to try to wait a few hours before emailing. Then maybe mark the wait in days. But no need to torture yourself. After a lot of back and forth reassurance from your t I really believe it starts to resolve on its own by your therapist just "being there". Your brain will finally "get it " Maybe an early attachment figure was unreliable and this process is rewiring you. Hope this makes sense.

Thanks, Una. Yeah, I think I might just need to be more direct and to the point. Not just with MC or T, but probably with other people in my life, too. I've been getting a bit better with that. Like if H seems angry, I'll outright ask him if he's angry with me or if it's like something at work, etc. And he'll generally tell me (it's usually not me). When we'd initially discussed my doing that in therapy, H said it would be annoying for me to ask. So it made me reluctant at first. But better to have him be annoyed briefly (he tends to let things go quickly, unlike me) than to have me worried for hours.

Having you worry for hours keeps you under his control. Sorry to go all feminist on ya, but my first h played the same game on me that my mother did - always keep me guessing. But also always keep me at arms-length.

Oh yeah another thing I do is post here of course but I keep a therapy notebook to jot down pressure point issues that bug me during the week. Then I read my notes before session so I don't miss what has been bothering me all week

Thanks, Growly. That's interesting that Kashi had thought about contacting you but didn't know why--maybe you just have that connection? I was recently talking to my T about whether I could stay in touch with her once she retires (she's around that age), and she said sometimes she happens to be thinking about a former client, then the next day will get a letter from him/her. (And she said we could continue to be in touch when she retires, even including, say, a phone call if I'm really struggling or need support/advice.)

I'm pretty sure this goes back to stuff with my parents. And that's why it's coming out so much with MC because of the paternal transference (even though he's only 12 years older than me).

I do sometimes try to wait a certain amount of time before e-mailing or texting--like, "OK, if I haven't heard back by 2 tomorrow, then I'll reach out again" or something like that. Posting on the "Dear T" board helps, too. But then sometimes, it's like, OK, if I'm freaking out, shouldn't I just reach out instead of struggling with it? I'm hoping like you said that with time, it will stop being an issue.

I'm definitely more secure in the attachment than I was, say, a year ago (even if it may not sound like it on here!). I just keep wondering how MC isn't totally annoyed and frustrated by it...but then, I think he knows psychologically what's going on--and also that it's not really about him--and that it will just take time. MC has said that processing/working through transference can be helpful because it takes something from my past and gives it a different ending. And he seems willing to work with it (and H seems willing to let me do that as well).

I agree with the being direct with your needs here so that you can hear what you need to hear rather than having it coming through in an ambiguous way. Yes, it is risky but from what I have seen of MC, he will not let you down. And since he doesn't always read his email, you might talk to him about using text in this way as long as you keep it to something like "you there?" ... "just saying hi"... type of thing. It might allow you to feel that no hedging about being there for you feeling.

The other thing I did was put a note on my monitor that told me to "just stop, just stop it!" I made it be goals when I was not stressed as to how long before I emailed T. I agree that there is a fine line between trying to build your tolerance towards the anxiety and suffering. I guess one question is do you really want to stop emailing him, stop this cycle? And other than the reassurance, what are you gaining by emailing him shortly after a session?

I do find the first 24-36 hours are the hardest for me even when not triggered. I miss her so much in those first day or so after a session. If I can make it past 48 hours, I usually do much better with having to wait. Also, I post here and journal. I give the journal to T and in this journal I write about missing her, being scared of pushing her, scared of being terminated, of being too much. We may or may not ever talk about what I wrote, that is up to me... giving it to her, lets her see my struggles and where I am and such, without giving it more attention than it needs. She doesn't reassure me in response to my journal entries or even respond to my journal entries again unless I bring it up.

Granted I see T 2x week, I think in part because of what I was writing in my journal. If I recall, you see MC on Mondays and T on Tuesdays. Could you possibly spread those out more so that maybe it is a Monday and Thursday. It wouldn't be seeing MC 2x week but it might help in spreading it out throughout the week.

I think it's a great idea to be straightforward. For one, you make sure you are communicating what you are looking for in terms of a reply. You are also being efficient time-wise. I don't know about therapists, but I know I mostly just look for the point in any correspondence and address that. I also work with people who can't handle more than two questions or concepts (nothing to do with intelligence, they are just very busy), so I have learned to cut to the chase.

I don't know how you resolve this, but being direct is worth trying out.

You've seemed to be concerned about coming across as needy, but there isn't much a decent therapist is going to miss under a pile of words that try to show otherwise. My therapist knows what I'm driving at, so I don't even bother trying to cover. I just come out and say or ask. If I am being needy, she already knows that, so I don't want to have my denial on display on top of it. Besides, there are worse things about me, I think, than wanting a reply to an email.

I'm very direct with my T about what I need from her whether it's reassurance, encouragement, help, etc. She's not big on emails, so if she knows what I need, she can give it to me. If she doesn't, I'll probably get a response I don't want.

How to end the cycle? I don't know. I know to make changes you actually have to put forth effort. You have to also really want to change.

But I "think" if you can be direct with what you need, that will make the emailing less. And then you just need to hold onto that reassurance for as long as you can. Really hold onto it.

Hi LT, I totally understand that cycle, and the horrible worries that can come up if you contact T and they don't reply straight away!
With regards to being direct about it, I often was, because my T led the way, and I think it was helpful. T used to say "feel free to contact me if you want to share something, or just to check I'm still there". We also spoke openly in therapy about how sometimes I didn't have a specific problem but I just wanted to touch base with him - he said it was fine, and he was glad it was helpful.
I think this was good because it eliminated the potential "shame" - that I'm an adult and I should be fine and I shouldn't need contact from this person who is not my family, etc. I think it was helpful to be open, and that my T was totally fine about it and even encouraged it, and reassured me that it was a helpful part of therapy.
I still need this contact sometimes, but less often. And I don't get so worried if I don't hear back straight away. So in my experience, it does get easier!

I would definitely be direct. I see my T on a Monday and often by thursday/Friday I have a little panic as to whether she is still there, even though I trust her and the rational side of me knows she is. So I often just send her a quick text saying "just checking you are still there" and she always responds, usually immediately. She also often says to me at the end of the session "I'm here if you need me or just need to check in"
How to break that cycle I don't know as I haven't managed it yet, although my T is about to go away for nearly 2 months and I feel like I can't just randomly check she is still there between weekly phone chats as I don't want to bother her on her break

Thanks for all the comments--will respond to some individually later. I'm noticing a rare consensus here, which is that the best way to handle it is to directly ask for what I need. Rather than rambling on and hoping T or MC will read between the lines. Or sending several e-mails before I send the one saying what I *really* want/need.

I think in session tomorrow--because I'm sure MC will bring up the e-mails, based on past experience--I might ask him if it would be OK if I'm just direct about what I want/need. I'm pretty sure he'll say it's OK, since asking for what I need is something that's often difficult for me (fear of seeming needy and/or pathetic, for one). So to actually directly ask for what I need would be progress for me. And that's something I"ve been trying to apply to my marriage, too, with varying levels of success (both in my doing it and H's response to it).

I'll also ask MC which form of communication (e-mail vs. text) he prefers, especially if it will be a short message, like, "You're still there, right?" or, in the case of this week, "You still want to work with us, right?" (He'll probably say it's up to me.)

I think being direct is better than beating around the bush. I think practicing being direct with T and H and your friends would be a wonderful step forward. However, I wonder if it is really productive to continue individually contacting your MC in between sessions. I know when I've done couple's counseling, we were only allowed to contact our counselor together-- not individually outside of session. Even if MC allows and respond to it, it intensifies the dependence on MC instead of forcing you to learn to self-smooth or seek reassurance from your H or someone more appropriate. This seems to be one more way you are intensifying things with MC and preventing your marriage counseling from focusing on the relationship with your h.

This sounds like a great plan, LT. I wish you luck in finding a voice while in session to talk about this and working out a plan/strategy so that it is successful.

I too went through the feelings of hating myself for the neediness and feeling I was pathetic for needing t the way I was... and wondering what the heck was wrong with me because I didn't used to be so needy. Maybe I wasn't dealing with things the most healthiest, I at least felt like I could deal with it. Then I read somewhere about psychotherapy and how feeling pathetic for being needy is one of the signs of where we are in our progress and that getting to where we accept that it is ok to be needy because people need other people was signs of progress. I know there are tons of theories out there but this resonated with me. I think it helped some in realizing that it is appropriate to want/need emotional things from other people. I think this is one of the concepts that helped me move from sending rambling emails to being more direct about what I wanted from my emails. And I still struggle with feeling pathetic, at times. The struggle is less often, passes through more quickly, and is less intense.

Working on that. About a month ago, we had a session where MC said at the end, "I know you're probably going to want to e-mail me after you've had more time to think about what was said, and that's fine. But I have one request--that before you e-mail me, you try talking to H about it, so that you give him a chance to comfort and reassure you." And I did just that--talked to H about it first, there was still some lingering stuff, so e-mailed MC. Then proceeded to talk to H about it more before session.

I'm trying to be better with that in general, too. And lately (past few months), H seems to be responding in more of a way that's helpful to me. I think talking in session about what I wanted/needed in terms of support from someone is starting to sink in for H. Before, I'd try to say what I needed/wanted in certain situations (like, I was having a panic attack, I was worried about an upcoming event, etc.), and he'd say in session that he understood. But then in the real world, it was like he forgot what we'd talked about.

He's gotten much better lately--not sure what shifted, but I feel like particularly in his response to how I reacted when I found out about MC's wife--it was exactly what I needed at the time. A hug, and being open to listening and talking about it. I feel like the marriage counseling is helping with that, it's just been a slow process. The same with me understanding H and what he wants/needs--he often doesn't seem to know what exactly he wants/needs from me, which is difficult for me. So that's something we're trying to focus on now in session (and at home).

For me, yes it has been helpful to text t1 something like "checking in". We have an image of me on one path and him on another. Our paths cross twice a week in session. The rest of the time, even though he is out of sight, he can still hear me if I shout. Texting is me shouting, just to be sure that he is there. The image is helpful to me-obviously we can't do therapy shouting back and forth, but it can help me to know that he is there, and that our paths will cross again.

I actually think for me it is better to just say that I need to know he is there, otherwise I spend energy on trying to figure out what to say so that I get what I need and I can get all caught up in what I have put out there. And, it has the advantage of him not having to have time to read a bunch or text a bunch- he can shoot me a quick text when he has just a minute or two between other clients or after hours.

OK, gonna cut and paste a bit from the "In Session Today" thread to update this (see that thread for full session, just putting reassurance-related stuff here):

I said how I had a question about e-mailing. That sometimes I was just looking for a certain thing or answer, but I couldn't come right out and say it. MC was like, "Because you're afraid to?" I said sometimes. Like obviously, when I e-mailed him last week, what I *really* wanted to know was whether he still wanted to work with us (and thought he should keep working with us). But it was like I sent these e-mails hoping he'd read between the lines or that whatever response he gave would make me feel better. I finally said what I was worried about 4 days later.

I said sometimes when I reach out, i just want...and he said, "Reassurance? I know it's a dirty word around here, but..." and I said, "Yeah, sometimes. Or it's like I just want the connection, to know you or T are still here--especially like if I've had an intense with T, it's difficult to just walk out and then not talk for a week. So I reach out. I asked MC if I could just cut to the chase...like if I just want to know he's still there, can I just text him, "Hey, you still there?" I fully expected him to say that was fine.

Instead, he said that wasn't such a good thing. Because it could lead to dependency. (I wanted to be like, "Um, too late!" but didn't). So for my sake it's better that I don't do that. I was trying to ask if it was OK just now and then, but he said he wasn't really going to answer that. H chimed in and said that it's how I look for the rules, I want to know if it's OK to do that every x number of weeks. I said, "Yeah, we've been talking about my wanting rules thing lately..." By this point, of course I was crying. He said he knew I was unhappy with that response.

Now quoting relevant parts of response from Ruh Roh and my response.
I was confused, too. I don't see how being direct makes me more dependent. I think he just didn't want me to be like, "Are you still there? Just checking!" because that suggests dependency? But to me, to just ask a quick, direct question and, hopefully, get a relatively quick answer (because all he'd have to say is "yep, still here")...I feel like that's making progress for me because I'm being direct and asking for what I want or need. I mean, sure, ideally I wouldn't want/need any reassurance from him or T--I should be able to reassure myself and/or get it from H or other people in my "real life," like friends/family. But it seems like the step in between being afraid to ask for what I want and not asking for it at all should be, "Ask directly for what I want."

So might need to bring that up next session briefly (not in an e-mail!)

Forgot to mention this (and was already insanely long!), but in a previous session, I'd asked about wanting to check in with him. And he said that if I felt like I *needed* to do it, then it's not good to do it. But if I *wanted* to do it, then that was OK. (Maybe because that implies less dependency?) So I brought that up this time, and he seemed confused and said he must have just said that before because he was having trouble articulating what he meant.

Thoughts? I see T tomorrow and wanted to bring up the "just checking in to make sure you're there" thing with her (like, to check in with her sometimes, not with MC). But now I'm not sure if she'll just have the same reaction. Then again, part of her issue with me e-mailing was that my e-mails were getting really long. So, I'd think a one- or two-sentence one would be an improvement! Guess it wouldn't hurt to ask...