[SarahSweden]

I´m not in therapy at the moment as I´ve been denied further help because of lack of therapists within the public health care. But I´m still engaged in therapy issues.

One thing I´ve experienced over the years, mostly with my latest T and partly also when I´ve seen T:s in evaluation sessions is that it feels like sitting there and confessing your faults and flaws. Of course you have to talk about your troubles and issues but most often I don´t feel that supported, more like the T is trying to find out why I have those faults and flaws.

Perhaps it lies within myself but I feel like the T indirectly blames me for my situation even if no T ever said that straight out to me.

For example I can tell a T I feel lonely and that I was partly alienated as a child and that I´ve felt that way in an adult age as well. To me this is a sorrow and a big problem but to T:s it seems to just pass and mix up with other things I mention.

I just end up telling them a lot about my problems but I don´t feel I get any help. I´m not looking for "tips and tricks" or "do this and that" but understanding of how I feel and why I feel this way.

I think I haven´t met with the right T yet but I also feel that as I know a lot about my own patterns and issues many T:s haven´t much to tell me.

[satsuma]

I'm not sure if this is a helpful comment, so if it is not please ignore it: Inwonder whether this sense that therapists are blaming you comes from your feelings combined with the nature of therapy.
What I mean by that is that the job of a therapist - I think they would all see it this way - is to help people to overcome difficulties and have better or happier lives, in one way or another.
So if someone comes to them and says that they are unhappy because of XYZ (e.g. Feeling or being socially isolated), then the therapist needs to first look into why this is the case,or what could be the underlying problems leading to the person being in this situation, in order to formulate what kind of therapy would help and what the goals would be.
If you are feeling that your problems are flaws, then I wonder whether a therapist trying to share with you their understanding of the underlying problems that could be addressed in therapy, would feel or sound to you like a therapist listing off your flaws?
For what it's worth, I don't think problems are (necessarily) flaws, and I think they are part of being human, and I guess some of us have more problems than others and I think that is partly just due to our luck. Not because we are flawed.
When I first went to therapy, I assumed that all of my problems were flaws. I had always seen myself that way. Through therapy. I gradually learned to see things differently. When my T first shared that he didn't think I was a bad person, it sounds silly now but that really floored me, and it took me a long time to really understand.

[SarahSweden]

Thanks. For most part it´s not the fact that the T:s have stated issues or flaws in me but more like me sitting there, talking about both problems and causes and patterns behind those problems and then it kind of ends there.

The next step never arrived, my first therapy was an exception but that therapy was so short because of finances. But with my other contacts and in my last therapy I felt like I just went into the room and began talking negatively about myself.

Fortunately I´m not with that T anymore but still, I feel as I know quite a lot about therapy I feel that much of what can be done by a T is already done by myself. And it´s not to brag I say this, I feel it´s both bad and sad that it is that way.

I´ve also heard similar things as you, like "I´m not a bad person" and such but for me that has no effect as I look to the big picture and real changes in life. Hearing nice things is part of a successful therapy alliance, to be seen and heard but it´s not enough to create change.

Originally Posted by satsuma

I'm not sure if this is a helpful comment, so if it is not please ignore it: Inwonder whether this sense that therapists are blaming you comes from your feelings combined with the nature of therapy.
What I mean by that is that the job of a therapist - I think they would all see it this way - is to help people to overcome difficulties and have better or happier lives, in one way or another.
So if someone comes to them and says that they are unhappy because of XYZ (e.g. Feeling or being socially isolated), then the therapist needs to first look into why this is the case,or what could be the underlying problems leading to the person being in this situation, in order to formulate what kind of therapy would help and what the goals would be.
If you are feeling that your problems are flaws, then I wonder whether a therapist trying to share with you their understanding of the underlying problems that could be addressed in therapy, would feel or sound to you like a therapist listing off your flaws?
For what it's worth, I don't think problems are (necessarily) flaws, and I think they are part of being human, and I guess some of us have more problems than others and I think that is partly just due to our luck. Not because we are flawed.
When I first went to therapy, I assumed that all of my problems were flaws. I had always seen myself that way. Through therapy. I gradually learned to see things differently. When my T first shared that he didn't think I was a bad person, it sounds silly now but that really floored me, and it took me a long time to really understand.

[here today]

It turned out, with my last therapist, that I WAS being judged or blamed. It seems to be just a part of her temperament, she doesn't often show it but it's there.

That's the way my family of origin was, too. Judgmental on the inside, nice on the outside. So most of the time in therapy I thought that was just my transference, but it wasn't.

I guess the question is for me, how do I deal with judgmentalism? I think I really need to see that, when it's there, as their stuff -- doesn't necessarily have anything to do with me. My last T thought it did, because she apparently believed that she had a superior or privileged position as my T. And it was something I thought was a problem, too, but I had come.for some help with it -- which she did not and apparently could not offer, just a social judgment of me. So, we terminated the therapy. I would really like some help, still, to a certain extent but I don't believe it's out there for me so I'll just bumble along on my own and see what happens with that.

Somehow, though, after I gave up caring that the T was judgmental toward me, that that was her problem, I am finding that I don't feel so much like a bad person myself. I explicitly, within myself, decided she didn't understand and so rejected her judgment of me.

[kecanoe]

I've been in therapy for different reasons over the years. When I was seeking help with my marriage, the t gave specific things that she thought we ought to try between sessions. Then we would report back how it worked. She spent a little time discussing causes, but mostly focused on helping us learn new ways of behaving. We both found that when we acted differently, things improved in our marriage. Some of her suggestions were helpful, others not so much. But I don't feel like we lost anything by trying out what she said. She was very focused on behavioral changes. And those changes helped us feel better. It did involve admitting faults and flaws, but she didn't spend much time at all in figuring out the "why" of it, just went with the behavioral changes that might help. That therapy was very different from what I am doing now in therapy. The stuff I am doing now is body-based trauma work. That doesn't involve talking about where I can improve my life, but seeking to understand myself and my reactions, and then doing things to clear traumatic memories from my brain and body.

The difference between the two is so huge that it is hard to believe both are "therapy". Some people make a distinction between counseling and psychotherapy, and I believe that is probably a more accurate way to describe the two.

[cinnamon_roll]

You mentioned in other discussions that you tend to be rather perfectionstic. Maybe this view on yourself and life in general tends to get a bit in the way when talking in therapy about problems and things you want to change in your life?

For me, perfectionism is deeply connected with feelings of shame, guilt, judgment... So in order to get away from this perfectionism which is not healthy for me, I also needed to tackle those feelings connected with it.

To me, the dynamics with your latest therapist seemed to be in many ways influenced by your perfectionist demands on yourself. I totally get that this perfectionism makes it difficult to talk about your problems. I know it myself too well. For me it was that I 'projected' my feelings shame and my self-judgment onto my therapist, in a way I externalized my self-aggressive feelings because I did not want to acknowledge that I'm so judgmental on myself. My T at the time kept saying that what I'm practising here is some form of self-harm, which I found a bit extreme when she said it, but now later on I can see what she meant...

The thing is: Having problems is part of being human. It's universal. Everybody has problems. Having them does not make you faulty in any way.

Maybe this could be a project for you - trying to 'learn' that it is ok not to be 'perfect'? That mistakes happen in life? That problems are part of life, and not faults or flaws? That your value as a person does not depend on you being 'perfect' (according to your own standards)?
I started down this road a few years ago, and it transformed important areas of my life.

Maybe you find something useful in these experiences of mine?
Wishing you all the best. Don't give up!
c_r

[SarahSweden]

I agree my perfectionism can be a difficulty when talking to a T but then it´s something to be dealt with by the therapist. We talked for several sessions about perfectionism but mostly she just stated my faults and flaws coming from perfectionism but we didn´t reach the next step, that is solving the issues.

Partly I may have projected my own feelings of being inadequate to my therapist but she also said several negative and insulting things like she thought I have an "a-n-a-l and in need of a s-h-i-t behavior". I went to therapy because of things you mention and have gone through but met with a T it didn´t work out with and now I don´t get help further.

Thanks for trying to cheer me up, I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by cinnamon_roll

You mentioned in other discussions that you tend to be rather perfectionstic. Maybe this view on yourself and life in general tends to get a bit in the way when talking in therapy about problems and things you want to change in your life?

For me, perfectionism is deeply connected with feelings of shame, guilt, judgment... So in order to get away from this perfectionism which is not healthy for me, I also needed to tackle those feelings connected with it.

To me, the dynamics with your latest therapist seemed to be in many ways influenced by your perfectionist demands on yourself. I totally get that this perfectionism makes it difficult to talk about your problems. I know it myself too well. For me it was that I 'projected' my feelings shame and my self-judgment onto my therapist, in a way I externalized my self-aggressive feelings because I did not want to acknowledge that I'm so judgmental on myself. My T at the time kept saying that what I'm practising here is some form of self-harm, which I found a bit extreme when she said it, but now later on I can see what she meant...

The thing is: Having problems is part of being human. It's universal. Everybody has problems. Having them does not make you faulty in any way.

Maybe this could be a project for you - trying to 'learn' that it is ok not to be 'perfect'? That mistakes happen in life? That problems are part of life, and not faults or flaws? That your value as a person does not depend on you being 'perfect' (according to your own standards)?
I started down this road a few years ago, and it transformed important areas of my life.

Maybe you find something useful in these experiences of mine?
Wishing you all the best. Don't give up!
c_r

[cinnamon_roll]

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

I agree my perfectionism can be a difficulty when talking to a T but then it´s something to be dealt with by the therapist. We talked for several sessions about perfectionism but mostly she just stated my faults and flaws coming from perfectionism but we didn´t reach the next step, that is solving the issues.

Not to attack you, but out of curiousity: what would you expect of your [ideal] T in order to help you take one or several steps out of your perfectionist mode?

[SarahSweden]

I think the best way for me is a T who is accepting and caring and who can reach behind my wall of perfectionism and who can make me dare show other sides of myself. It also has to be a T who has great experience from working with therapy and who wants to understand, not just brush it off as me being a difficult client or a client who has too many demands about how a therapy should be.

Originally Posted by cinnamon_roll

Not to attack you, but out of curiousity: what would you expect of your [ideal] T in order to help you take one or several steps out of your perfectionist mode?

[BudFox]

One problem is that therapists are not keen to acknowledge that often life circumstances are the issue (societal, economic, familial, health, etc factors). They need to believe, or at least promote, the idea that suffering is self-created and thus if you would only listen to them and get off your a*s, the suffering will cease or lessen considerably. If you fail to progress, it’s because you failed to change according to their conception.

I also think it’s a problem of expectations. People expect therapy to help them feel better, and therapists promise this, but when you look at it, it’s not very feasible.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

I think the best way for me is a T who is accepting and caring and who can reach behind my wall of perfectionism and who can make me dare show other sides of myself. It also has to be a T who has great experience from working with therapy and who wants to understand, not just brush it off as me being a difficult client or a client who has too many demands about how a therapy should be.

I think this is a very good expectation from a therapist. However, I would like to point out that even with such a therapist it can take a loooooong time to get there because most probably your defences are very strong and very rigid and it can take really a long time for a therapist to find a way to reach behind that wall (even if theoretically she is able to do that). This is not said to attack you but rather, I have very personal experiences with that. I, too, have some very strong defences that make me very avoidant and also perfectionistic. A part of me is able to see those things from a perspective and so I don't have the need to blame my T, I can understand that this is a difficult combo and both I and the T need a lot of patience to just keep trying.

Perhaps the main question for you would be whether you think you would be able to spot the right therapist before she has been actually able to find a way to reach you? Or would you quit before out of frustration that again it was someone who wasn't able to help you. Because in order to succeed you actually have to stick with her long enough.

Anyway, I'm sorry about your situation. It really is a tough one. I hope with time you are able to figure out and seek out the help that is best suited for you.

[cinnamon_roll]

Originally Posted by feileacan

I think this is a very good expectation from a therapist. However, I would like to point out that even with such a therapist it can take a loooooong time to get there because most probably your defences are very strong and very rigid and it can take really a long time for a therapist to find a way to reach behind that wall (even if theoretically she is able to do that).

I totally agree with this. The problem is, that within the public healthcare system time is a factor that is very limited, as you pointed out in the past, Sarah.

I was wondering, since you seem to feel left very alone: Are there any asperger-related support groups or other support offers (maybe even some counselling?) available where you live? Or: Are there any depression related self-help groups? Have you ever considered seeking this kind of support? Do you think it could be helpful to you?

Best wishes, c_r

[here today]

Even with gobs of therapy, the best "help" for me in recent years has been support groups (including here on PC) and some "meetup" groups of people with similar interests (see Meetup.com, there are some in Stockholm, don't know about where you are).

In addition to some specific traumatic events that caused me to dissociate from some emotions, and which trauma-focused therapy probably did help with, a lot of my difficulties with anxiety and perfectionism (in myself and expectations of others) came because I had not really been accepted/loved as my essential somewhat "nerdish" self in my very socially-conscious family of origin.

Getting to "feel" how sad that was has been a biggy, but then what? Finding some regular people who are more like me -- and there are some. It's taken awhile but I feel kind of accepted sometimes. Or maybe you're artistic? Or something else? What are your interests, besides mental health, although that's important, too, of course. Or what were you interested in or did you enjoy doing when you were a kid?

I think you said a while back that transportation was difficult or expensive? Would you like for us to help you brainstorm some about that?

[SarahSweden]

Thanks for sharing. I think I know quite fast if a T could help me or not. It´s much about her attitude and her way of looking on issues and problems. My first T said it´s bad to pathologize too much and I really agree with that. My second T who I just left was within public mental health care and there too much is about finding a diagnosis to treat and very little is about understanding other causes like societal impact upon people.

I think issues like perfectionism, improving self image and similar aren´t issues that are generally dealt with within the Swedish mental health care. Those who seek care for such issues in contrast to more "severe" and medical mental issues are mostly found at private T:s.

Originally Posted by feileacan

I think this is a very good expectation from a therapist. However, I would like to point out that even with such a therapist it can take a loooooong time to get there because most probably your defences are very strong and very rigid and it can take really a long time for a therapist to find a way to reach behind that wall (even if theoretically she is able to do that). This is not said to attack you but rather, I have very personal experiences with that. I, too, have some very strong defences that make me very avoidant and also perfectionistic. A part of me is able to see those things from a perspective and so I don't have the need to blame my T, I can understand that this is a difficult combo and both I and the T need a lot of patience to just keep trying.

Perhaps the main question for you would be whether you think you would be able to spot the right therapist before she has been actually able to find a way to reach you? Or would you quit before out of frustration that again it was someone who wasn't able to help you. Because in order to succeed you actually have to stick with her long enough.

Anyway, I'm sorry about your situation. It really is a tough one. I hope with time you are able to figure out and seek out the help that is best suited for you.

[SarahSweden]

Thanks. Yes, I think this was very much why my T within the public health care felt performance anxiety when meeting with me, she said so herself when mentioning her countertransference. I think she mostly deals with mental issues on other levels, not like mine.

I know of a depression support group and I´ve sometimes thought about joining such a group. I´ve felt too low and lacking motivation as I have so many problems and by that I haven´t taken any practical steps to join such a group. I think I could find support in such a group even if I´d still feel I need therapy.

When it comes to counseling I think of perhaps looking for psychotherapy within the church but I´m hesitant whether they are able to work on my issues as they don´t have the medical base for treatment.

Thanks for caring cinnamon.

Originally Posted by cinnamon_roll

I totally agree with this. The problem is, that within the public healthcare system time is a factor that is very limited, as you pointed out in the past, Sarah.

I was wondering, since you seem to feel left very alone: Are there any asperger-related support groups or other support offers (maybe even some counselling?) available where you live? Or: Are there any depression related self-help groups? Have you ever considered seeking this kind of support? Do you think it could be helpful to you?

Best wishes, c_r

[SarahSweden]

Thanks for sharing. I live in Stockholm and I´ve heard about meetups but as I´ve felt and feel sad, down and depressed I haven´t felt that social or wanting to join "jolly activities" and feeling the pressure to be interested and engaged in activities.

I never developed any real interests I think, I ´ve mostly been the "good and competent girl" who had good grades and behaved in a nice way. I don´t know what I´m interested in besides more general activities like going to a movie, have a coffee at a nice café and similar.

I´m not quite sure about the transportation thing, could you specify what you mean? I´ve lived quite near Stockholm city for years so the distance itself isn´t stopping me for going to town from time to time. Perhaps I mentioned this about transportation when it comes to see a T who has her practice far away?

Originally Posted by here today

Even with gobs of therapy, the best "help" for me in recent years has been support groups (including here on PC) and some "meetup" groups of people with similar interests (see Meetup.com, there are some in Stockholm, don't know about where you are).

In addition to some specific traumatic events that caused me to dissociate from some emotions, and which trauma-focused therapy probably did help with, a lot of my difficulties with anxiety and perfectionism (in myself and expectations of others) came because I had not really been accepted/loved as my essential somewhat "nerdish" self in my very socially-conscious family of origin.

Getting to "feel" how sad that was has been a biggy, but then what? Finding some regular people who are more like me -- and there are some. It's taken awhile but I feel kind of accepted sometimes. Or maybe you're artistic? Or something else? What are your interests, besides mental health, although that's important, too, of course. Or what were you interested in or did you enjoy doing when you were a kid?

I think you said a while back that transportation was difficult or expensive? Would you like for us to help you brainstorm some about that?

[Yellowbuggy]

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

When it comes to counseling I think of perhaps looking for psychotherapy within the church but I´m hesitant whether they are able to work on my issues as they don´t have the medical base for treatment.

I think psychotherapy within the church is a great idea, specifically because there is no "medical base" for treatment. You mentioned that you did not like the focus on diagnosing and pathologizing your experience. Perhaps a non-medical approach will be better for you at this time.

[Fuzzybear]

Hmmmmmmmmm......

I only had to negotiate the title to have some input on this

Within a public health "care" system, it seems, this is too often the case...

The best advice I have ... is consult a provider who is not affiliated with this..

How to do this ..

Everyone is different

[here today]

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

Thanks for sharing. I live in Stockholm and I´ve heard about meetups but as I´ve felt and feel sad, down and depressed I haven´t felt that social or wanting to join "jolly activities" and feeling the pressure to be interested and engaged in activities.

I never developed any real interests I think, I ´ve mostly been the "good and competent girl" who had good grades and behaved in a nice way. I don´t know what I´m interested in besides more general activities like going to a movie, have a coffee at a nice café and similar.

I´m not quite sure about the transportation thing, could you specify what you mean? I´ve lived quite near Stockholm city for years so the distance itself isn´t stopping me for going to town from time to time. Perhaps I mentioned this about transportation when it comes to see a T who has her practice far away?

Sorry, perhaps I had you confused with someone else who was having trouble paying for transportation.

I can really identify with being 'the "good and competent girl" who had good grades and behaved in a nice way'. It was very hard for me to know who I was besides that. "Therapy" was "supposed" to help with that, I thought, but it took years, if it really did. And now I'm old! Well, we all get there eventually, unless it's the alternative.

I did have some good years, so I certainly can't complain about everything.

I'm not religious myself personally but I like your idea of looking for counseling in a church. It may be that you would find someone who is more caring and interested in you as a person in that environment. And if it doesn't work work out entirely, maybe it will still help a little.

[SarahSweden]

Thanks. Yes, I hope I don´t do anything stupid by perhaps choosing this alternative because if I do choose a therapist within church I´ll loose my place within the mental health care system and it´s very difficult to get referral there. But as I just yesterday experienced even more bad treatment from a psychiatrist within the clinic I´m in I´m thinking of giving up on that particular care.

Originally Posted by Yellowbuggy

I think psychotherapy within the church is a great idea, specifically because there is no "medical base" for treatment. You mentioned that you did not like the focus on diagnosing and pathologizing your experience. Perhaps a non-medical approach will be better for you at this time.

[SarahSweden]

Thanks. That´s ok, there are a lots of people writing on this forum, it´s easy to mix peoples stories up.

I appreciate you sharing around this, that you have gone through similar stuff. Did you get help within the public health care or did you have to pay for a private T?

Here psychotherapy within church has no direct religious connection, it´s more a "service" within the church and instead of the therapist being a psychologist they often are priests or similar but with the same education to become a licensed psychotherapist as other work groups. But I´m still afraid though, it´s difficult to know how "bad" my mental health condition is. I mean if they can´t "handle" me and I´ve choosen to end my contacts within the public health care, then I´ll have to start over.

But I do believe that the general attitude towards people is quite different between health care providers within public care compared with therapy within the church. That I probably would like the attitude within the church better. Very hard to know what to do.

Originally Posted by here today

Sorry, perhaps I had you confused with someone else who was having trouble paying for transportation.

I can really identify with being 'the "good and competent girl" who had good grades and behaved in a nice way'. It was very hard for me to know who I was besides that. "Therapy" was "supposed" to help with that, I thought, but it took years, if it really did. And now I'm old! Well, we all get there eventually, unless it's the alternative.

I did have some good years, so I certainly can't complain about everything.

I'm not religious myself personally but I like your idea of looking for counseling in a church. It may be that you would find someone who is more caring and interested in you as a person in that environment. And if it doesn't work work out entirely, maybe it will still help a little.