Couch 158: The Newberry Couch!

What's up Lost?

I'm such a weepy mess right now for whatever reason (just been feeling especially down since yesterday's marriage counseling appointment), and H and D get home in an hour...Need to pull myself together and act normal. I used up my "leave me alone" card last night...well, and Saturday night, which led to a fight (even though H refuses to call it that)...

((((LT))))

Hugs, LT.

I'm feeling riled up over a comment my pottery tutor made a few days ago. I plucked up the courage to let her know that medical stuff is triggering for me...and even explained a bit about why. If you're in my circle, and you know why I'm having a rough go of things at the moment, then I trust you...She then informed me that 'You shouldn't have opened the emails. You should have got somebody else to open them and delete them.'

As if I haven't been flogging myself with that thought for the last several years...people mean well, but...argh! I don't see R until next week, either.

Thanks for the hugs.

And hugs to you Lost. I'm sorry your tutor said those things...How is what she said supposed to help you? You can't go back in time...

Exactly...not in the way that would necessitate, anyway. I 'time travel' on a nightly basis at the moment...back to January 2011.

I think part of what's bothering me from the session yesterday is MC's comment about how H and I are going to annoy each other, for 20, 30, 40 more years. And all I could think is what a horribly long time that sounded like (We'll be married for 10 years in April). Like, will it be going on like this for that long?

And I asked H in session about something T had mentioned, regarding H's reaction to us having an argument. I was downstairs crying (H didn't know that I was still upset), and he went right up to his office and was watching TV and laughing and stuff. Like nothing had happened. T said that suggests that either he tends to think arguments aren't a big deal and knows it will just blow over. That's the better option. Or it could be that H has seen me get upset so many times, it's like he just doesn't react to it anymore. When I asked in session, H said there was some element of the second one in there, that I'm anxious and things so much that it's just...I forget what exactly he said. He certainly implied that he didn't feel much in reaction to them anymore. And he was talking about my having random panic attacks while eating dinner, which are pretty rare for me lately, but he implied I'm still having them frequently. I said how it felt like he didn't see that I was trying, that I was doing better, that he pictured me exactly the same as I was 10 years ago.

MC just seemed focused on me changing my reaction to H, rather than H doing anything differently. Like I shouldn't do the dishes because I'm worried H will be mad if I don't, just do them because I want to (hahaha). Or don't do them, but don't worry about him being mad. And other stuff. Like I just have to change all of my ingrained thought patterns and reactions (which I am working on with T!), while H just carries on exactly as he's been doing.

I did e-mail MC about that, but who knows if he'll respond or if so, if he'll just be defensive. Sorry, I'll stop rambling now.

I still think that is hilarious

Hate to tell you, but MC is correct about having to change your ingrained thought patterns and reactions. Your description of doing the dishes because of some belief that you have to do it to pacify your husband sounds very much like how my husband and I used to deal with each other. We spent a lot of energy trying prevent things that hadn't even happened yet, things that we imagined in our heads but weren't really the reality of what was going on.

When I stopped doing that to myself, and made the choice to do things for myself, and let my husband's reactions be his own reactions, life got so much less internally stressful. That's what your husband is already doing. He's decided your reactions are your own reactions; he can't "fix" that for you. And rather than get upset every time you are upset, he's stopped engaging in that dance with you because it really is fruitless.

I was basically in your husband's shoes; my husband was the emotional one. I chose to stop reacting to his upsettedness, to stop playing into that dance. It wasn't that I was not being supportive; I was simply choosing to take care of myself because I realized nothing I did or said was going to "fix" his reactions anyway -- all it did was prolong the upsettedness for him and stress me out. So, I stopped. And like you, he didn't like that. He wanted me to change. The problem with that is that he had no power to make me change, and I wasn't particularly inclined to do so; the fact of the matter was that I had done nothing BUT change for him for 20 years to the point that I had lost myself. For the first time in our marriage, I started being true to myself -- still supportive of my husband but not engaging in that dysfunctional dance we had gotten to habitually used to over 20 years. I changed, just not the way he thought I should.

But you know what, when he realized I was putting the responsibility for my emotions and reactions on me, and I was leaving the responsibility for his reactions and emotions to him, when he realized I was done with that dance, he started making his own changes in his own reactions and emotions. He started being true to himself too.

We finally became true to ourselves as individuals. Our communication became more honest and less emotionally-laden and less emotionally manipulative of each other. We are now in our 30th year of marriage, and the last 10 years have been the calmest, most respectful, most communicative years for us because we take personal responsibility ONLY for ourselves; we stopped trying to "fix" each other and "change" each other and became authentic individuals in our marriage. We are both MUCH happier and our marriage has never been stronger.

Do we still annoy each other? Heck yes! But now that annoyance is more amusing than really a gripe. We can love and tolerate each other's quirks without letting them get to us. They're just little things in scheme of things.

OK, it's easy to say from the other side, from the person who isn't suffering from daily anxiety and depression and OCD. Sorry, but that's not a "dance" or whatever you called it with your H. I'm not doing this on purpose to suck him in or get some reaction out of him. I'm glad that all worked for you, but I bet your H was pretty miserable some of that time.

It's really more that MC seems to expect me to do all the work. And has consistently been that way--I just couldn't see some of it through the transference and attachment. H isn't perfect either. But we never examine stuff from his childhood, just mine. And I *am* working on myself. There's just some really minor things H could be doing to help, that I've told him time and again, he just doesn't do them. I've improved considerably since 7-8 years ago when I was constantly panicking, but I feel like H still sees that person. He doesn't see or accept my changes. And if we got in a fight, I used to go retreat in a corner and hate and blame myself. But now I often actually stand up for myself, and I don't think he likes that. He's used to me being in a certain role, a certain person, but I'm not that person anymore.

Aaand...that’s a rupture with Info.

Sorry atat. I hope it's something fairly painlessly resolvable.

Seriously? After what you know about me, you say I don't understand daily anxiety and depression? I was quite miserable in my own right. Come on now.

I also didn't say you were playing a game. I'm talking about the habits of interaction we get into as married couples. It is a "dance" in a way -- a push and pull -- that becomes habitual (and isn't either party's "fault" -- it takes two to tango as they say).

((((lost))))
((((atat))))

Well, your post was kind of the opposite of supportive, so...

Ugh, sorry, @@...

I'm sorry @@.

ATAT-i am sorry to hear about the rupture. When those guys are not attuned it can be irritating

I didn’t see LG’s post as not being supportive. She was simply giving her take and experience. I saw it as is being really supportive. I agree with her about the only people that we can control are ourselves and our own reactions. I don’t think anybody said it was easy. When I watch people be reactive all the time it seems exhausting to them. It’s also not something I’m going to try to take care of because I can’t. I have admitted on many occasions I tend to be more like you describe your husband as being. That doesn’t mean I am saying it’s easy to be on the other side

(((LT))) I'm not experiencing this anymore, but when I was the injured party and he was blowing me off, ignored me, or acted as if nothing had happened, I would truly snap. My anger was out of proportion to the original fight, because now I was angry at being ignored or made to feel as if I didn't matter. It turned into a horrible cycle of misery and didn't appear to have an end. If he ever took responsibility for his part of the original argument and if he ever showed any concern for my tears or fears then maybe that anger would have never erupted.

I finally did stop letting myself get upset, but it was because I stopped expecting anything from him and I stopped caring whether or not he was appreciating me. I stopped loving him and trying to please him and expecting him to be present in our relationship.

I'm certain you don't want to live that way and I'm certain you are in therapy to help you deal with this situation. I wish I could make it easier!

(((LG))) I had no idea about your struggles early in your marriage. I'm glad things changed for the better!

First thing Info does is confirm that I really don’t want a three-way session with 3 to work out our differences.

I say no, nuh-uh, no way.

She says, “That’s good, it felt like you were trying to set her up.” (I asked her to repeat to be sure I’d heard right.)

So...a session that was not my idea and that I’ve consistently said No too since it was proposed a month ago seems like me trying to set 3 up?

I got angry and we snapped at each other for the rest of the session. At one point I interrupt her, she says, “let me finish,” I do, I start answering, she interrupts me, then I say, “let me finish.”

At another point I snapped at her “have you *ever* been in therapy? Do you know what it’s like to be a client?” and her face got red and she snapped back, “yes, I have been in therapy!”

I pointed out about five better ways she could have expressed herself besides keeping quiet or saying “set up.”

That’s all I remember except pacing up and down to try and stay calm, sitting in a yogi squat, and then noticing there’s an awful lot of religious signs and symbols on her desk and bulletin board and shelves. More than I thought.

So yeah. Good times.

Ugh...what?????

So, Info seems to be a white knight in shining armor defending 3 against..........you?

Methinks Info is a tad too defensive about all things therapy and therapists.

I'm sorry it sucked. I do applaud your efforts to remain calm (I would've probably walked out and then sent a scathing, sarcastic email as a follow-up).

ATAT - sounds horrible.
I started taping the appointments because of her inability to remember what she had said/suggested/ put forth as her idea. It helped me know I was not the crazy one.

I also applaud the attempt at calmness. I usually tried to go for her jugular once the gloves were off.

I thought I could hurt myself pretty badly if I didn’t try to stay calm (glass-fronted bookcase).

As for taping, I bet Info would think that was setting her up.

And I forgot the best part—she kept saying “this is a relationship.” Apparently one where one party can blithely completely misinterpret the other party’s non-actions despite knowing differently.

My t often states that she doesn't remember what she says from session to session. She remembers what I say so well that I think I just realized it may be a wily t thing - she says she doesn't "remember" what she said so that I will tell her what I heard... hmm!

If I weren't on a break I'd email her and go "ah ha!!"