bit nervous...

I think it is going to take a bit of time for us to connect. t had just started offering interpretations (some of which were helpful) and then i kind of slammed him a little and so now i guess he is feeling a little unsure of himself

:-(

I have a good book that i need to take notes on as i read. so i'm going to aim to get up early and go sit in cafe's in civic before going in to see him. then i have a seminar afterwards. nice... getting into work... feeling okay about it... weather is warming up some... i'm doing alright.

but then there is therapy. don't know how it is going to go. we will see, i guess.

maybe... i'm not well enough to do the hard stuff. maybe... i just need him to be reflective / validating so i can figure out what some of the hard stuff is that is relevant in my life.

i'm not sure that either of us know what we are up to anymore. but i guess... well... i guess i do have views on what i would like. because therapy (for me) has always been about my trying to shape them...

i guess... i'd really like to do free association. or something like that. i heard that often it takes 2 years or even 4 years before interpretations can be tolerated. i feel like... he has been circumventing that by pushing me... we will see how well he does at not pushing, i guess. not pushing and (the crucial thing really) figuring out what is going on with stuff i want to talk about. rather than my talking about the stuff that HE feels safe with (ie abuse).

dunno... we will see...

[Perna]

Good luck, Alex. Sounds like you are getting a bit clear what you are going to try/talk about. I love productive "rambles" :-)

thanks perna. it was a bit weird. we sat in silence for a while. i... didn't want to say this because i didn't want to make him feel bad / didn't want him to feel like i was trying to make him feel bad... but i felt like nothing that i had to say mattered. like there were lots of different things that i could think of to talk about, but that he would think they were all my avoiding or something. i told him that i felt like that after some time, though.

and we talked some... talked about how sometimes i feel like i misrepresent myself and people agree to take me on (in my work, in therapy) because they think the misrepresentation is a representation. but then they are disappointed and wish i'd just go away. that i worried that he would feel like that...

about how i feel like people just wish i would go away quite a lot. about how i'm changing in my belief... but that it is slow. that sometimes i'm unreliable because i promise to do something then don't end up doing it and i figure that really it is for the best because people don't want me there anyway. that i'm trying to change that but that it is hard sometimes.

about how sometimes i cope with hardish things okay. like how there are turns about in who the 'favourite person' or people are in the department and about how it can be hard sometimes when you feel like people don't listen to you / don't respect what you have to say / aren't interested in what you have to say. but that that changes over time... and how when i'm in a good place i can be okay about it all but when i'm not in a good place it doesn't take me much to have me really floored by it. paranoia and isolation.

we talked about all kinds of stuff, i guess.

and he said that it must have got me more than he realised that he said i was avoiding... and i said, yeah, it did. i said i didn't want to define myself as a trauma survivor. that these other things in my life are important to me. are an important part of who i am. he said something about how he didn't want to define me as a trauma survivor either... then said something... and he kind of triggered me.

i said that the trouble is (with the theorists) that they think that 'oh this person is functioning fairly well and they need to function so they aren't in the place to do the work'. and the person who isn't functioning so well / who can avoid to fall into non-functioning is someone who is placed to do the work. and... that that seems wrong to me. for them to judge that the person who is functioning highly isn't in a position to know themselves (or something like that). that the person who completely falls apart... when they manage to get themselves together... is somehow better off than that other person.

that i didn't buy it.

and... i don't. i worry that i misrepresent myself. i worry that if i say what i really think / what i really want then he will reject me.

so... i don't know what i want half the time. i don't know what to say. i don't know who i am. i don't know.

and we will see..

[Perna]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
alexandra_k said:
but i felt like nothing that i had to say mattered. like there were lots of different things that i could think of to talk about, but that he would think

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

It took me awhile not to "bother" with what my therapist was doing/thinking and to just work on what I was saying and what I was getting from what I was saying (and from what my T was saying). Therapists (and all other people) are basically just a "tool" for reflecting so we can see our own thoughts and actions better.

That we are high functioning and "hide" our difficulties well does not mean we don't have just as difficult difficulties as the person who falls apart! It just means we don't let them appear in our mirrors so our mirrors cannot know we have them! We cause ourselves additional problems by thus making ourselves invisible. The others have no choice but to believe we haven't difficult problems because we are so good at hiding.

At some point a decision has to be made about whether to show and tell the "truth" (to ourselves, foremost!) and present what is in us to the mirrors. We cannot fix what cannot be seen/reflected to us to fix. It does no good to know things inside ourselves as they can't get out to be fixed. Wanting something from someone else; the ONLY way to get it is to ask them for that thing. Misrepresenting ourselves doubles our pain because it either is found out and we disappoint/anger others or it is not found out but we do not get what we want because we are not in the place we have represented ourselves as being in. The mirror reflects the misrepresentation and it "misses the mark."

[Mouse_]

AK, Sounds like its heavy trudging still!

((((alex)))))

what you said about misrepresentation and people wanting you to go away... that is my life too. i am a facsimile of what i seem. i learned how to act confident, not be confident..

what aspects do you feel are misrepresentations? and what is representation? Are there authentic aspects?

t asked if i felt like he knew me at all. i said... that he is getting to know me more over time.

i know that therapy is meant to be about figuring through the hard stuff... but i feel like i need there to be a balance in my life. i need to figure out how to integrate the 'bad' stuff with the 'good' stuff. and... keep the good. if i feel like he only wants to see the 'bad' stuff then the bad becomes magnified and i become more 'bad' because i figure (unconsciously) that that is what i need to to in order to be accepted by him.

and...

i don't want things to go that way.

i think i'm going to email him... and... take the plunge and tell him something i've told him before but something he never really listened to / acknowledged / understood the significance of before.

i wish i could do a proper course of analysis. how come? because it means (need to figure a nice way to say this) that he would shut the %#@&#! up one hell of a lot more. just let me talk about whatever springs to my mind and would work at figuring out patterns and getting to know me etc on the basis of what i choose to talk about.

instead of his believing that the 'real work' consists in me crying about mummy and daddy all the time. i mean, really. i can cry about mummy and daddy. in fact, i can feel it so much that i completely lose it. become completely disorganised. become completely unable to function. what good is that supposed to do? i fail to see...

i can switch into different 'alters' if that is what i need to do to obtain his care and concern. i can start cutting again if thats the only way he understands my distress. hell... what do you want me to be? cause i'll do (almost) anything. but... how is this helping me? i don't see how it helps others... i don't see how this helps me...

and i don't know how to make him %#@&#! see... except that i need to be gentle with him and validating, i guess. 'cause i'm kinda turning things upsidedown. his usual mode of relating etc... is it an attack? maybe... will he survive? i don't know.

:-(

[pachyderm]

> i need to be gentle with him and validating, i guess. 'cause i'm kinda turning things upsidedown. his usual mode of relating etc...
> is it an attack? maybe... will he survive? i don't know.



Sounds like me.

Which one of you is the therapist?

reciprocity...

%#@&#! if i'm going to be powerless

;-)

I mean... There are different models or ideals to be sure. I'm very much taken by this notion that Shapiro writes about... Maybe I'll try and find the thread where I quote him so I can bump it up... But the idea is basically... That the therapist gets something out of being a therapist. Otherwise... They wouldn't do it. They wouldn't be attracted to it.

I figure (on the basis of my observations) that my therapist is very sympathetic to my needy / dependent feelings. That he is very sympathetic to feelings of powerlessness etc. That he has less sympathy (that he writes it off as avoiding) if I have feelings of competency or accomplishment or happiness.

Maybe because he doesn't feel so useful then?

Well... Maybe he can learn that I can care about him and need him very much indeed while AT THE VERY SAME TIME I'm feeling productive in my work and competent with that etc.

And maybe I can learn... That people can care about me while I'm feeling productive in my work and competent with that. That I don't need to be overly helpless / overly out of control / overly dependent in order to earn his love.

And maybe it is a mutual thing.
I think it is a mutual thing indeed.
If it wasn't a mutual thing... Then why would he do it?

[Mouse_]

AK, you think to much for me :-(

[pachyderm]

> AK, you think to much for me :-(

[pachyderm]

AK:

"That he has less sympathy (that he writes it off as avoiding) if I have feelings of competency or accomplishment or happiness.

"Maybe because he doesn't feel so useful then?"

I don't know your T, but I think most therapists probably have enough distress to help with, to keep in business for a long time after they cure any of us!

yeah, i'm sure there is. but... whether he is going to terminate / grow bored with me... that is the million dollar question.

maybe he will figure that other people need him more than i do. that there isn't anything he can do to help me. that he doesn't want to see me anymore...

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
alexandra_k said:
That he has less sympathy (that he writes it off as avoiding) if I have feelings of competency or accomplishment or happiness.

Maybe because he doesn't feel so useful then?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Sympathy or empathy? Is he feeling things for your or with you?

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Well... Maybe he can learn that I can care about him and need him very much indeed while AT THE VERY SAME TIME I'm feeling productive in my work and competent with that etc.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I'm wondering what makes you think that you haven't demonstrated this to him already... or that he hasn't picked up on it... Just based on what you post, I would imagine that both your competency and need for him are both obvious. Do you feel like he sees it as one or the other?

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
And maybe I can learn... That people can care about me while I'm feeling productive in my work and competent with that. That I don't need to be overly helpless / overly out of control / overly dependent in order to earn his love.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

So a balance between the two-- he sees you as competent and needing of him (do you think he views your competency as independence? As pushing him away?) and at the same time you can accept that he can feel connected to you even when you are not in an extreme.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>

If it wasn't a mutual thing... Then why would he do it?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

It's very much a mutual thing. The reciprocity is difficult to see sometimes-- but it is there... they wouldn't do it if it wasn't there.

> Sympathy or empathy?

I'm not sure. I guess I would have said 'empathy' but I worry that he might be a little too invested in my feeling those things. Such that... It is moving from empathy (which is good) to sympathy (which isn't so good). But... I don't know.

> I would imagine that both your competency and need for him are both obvious. Do you feel like he sees it as one or the other?

I think... He sees the 'productive work' as me talking about my childhood and feeling painful feelings. Sometimes... I want to talk about more day to day stuff. Or I want to talk to him about something I'm struggling with in the day to day stuff. Or maybe I want to enjoy feeling happy about my work for a while.

Maybe it is that I was feeling like he didn't understand what the functioin of my talking about that other stuff was. The function of it for me is that... It is a significant part of my life and it needs to remain a significant part of my life. To stop me being lost in the past... I think he didn't realise how fragile I was.

I think he is starting to now.

I guess... I just want him to be accepting of me. Accepting of where I'm at. To trust me to push myself and to take risks with him as I'm able. Instead of him trying to push me in a direction that he thinks will be productive. I guess I need him to just go with me... And open his eyes a little more to the risks that I AM taking.

I think he is starting to now.

> The reciprocity is difficult to see sometimes-- but it is there... they wouldn't do it if it wasn't there.

Yeah. Different people have different issues... I'm not reccomending this for others... But I think that I do need to be a bit reassuring / validating of him. I've been giving him a really hard time over the last couple sessions. I think he might be feeling a little de-skilled / underappreciated etc.

Maybe part of what is hard is that I have fairly firm views on quite a lot of stuff. And my views... Aren't really captured in a 'standard line' because I read around a lot etc. And so I'm perhaps more aware of (and more criticial of) some of the assumptions and stuff that is guiding what he is doing. And... Sometimes I dig my heels in to be sure. And I guess I've realised that I need to learn to slow down sometimes. Or I become incomprehensible. And he is trying... But sometimes I really don't think that he understands what I'm saying.

Yeah, part of it is about my asserting my independence, I think.
Another part of it is that I have serious deadlines between now and the end of November.
Another part of it is that I'm terrified he will reject me if I show him more of myself.

[ECHOES]

ak, the fear of T getting bored with me comes up often for me. She assured me she isn't at all bored with me. But can I hang on to that? nope