Pushing T’s boundaries

I think I’ve mentioned this many times before, but just to give a little background, I’m typically very respectful and I’m also independent. My T seemed very happy recently when I asked him for some words of encouragement via email, saying something about how I never ask for anything from him.

Anyway, he only checks emails Mon-Thurs during work hours and he doesn’t check emails while on vacation. He hasn’t told me this, but I’ve figured it out. My main form of communication with him is via email and he seems ok with this. I tend to clam up in person, but reveal a lot more via email where I just feel freer and less inhibited. He has even thanked me for this, so I’ve felt encouraged to continue. Anyway, even though I fully respect his boundary of not answering on weekends, I find that I keep feeling quite distraught over it. Many months ago I asked him why he didn’t respond over weekends and it seemed like he was possibly willing to negotiate this with me. I also felt like maybe he was uncomfortable so I switched the topic. I still feel this way. I dread Thursday/Fridays because I feel a bit abandoned. I contemplated bombarding him with emails each day this weekend just so that he’d get the message. I obviously came to my senses and didn’t do it, but I just can’t shake the urgency I feel about him not responding on weekends. And honestly, if he agreed, I’d probably feel tremendously guilty.

Does anyone have similar experiences of wanting to push their T’s boundaries? Or suggestions?

Not the wanting part no but mine wont do weekends either or vacations. I see so many on here get contact whenever and it makes me sad sometimes but then I think, my T has a life, he deserves time away from work as anyone else does. I can't and don't expect him to be on call for me 24/7

Thankfully being independent, like you, I'm used to doing things alone so I've just gone to my old habits on weekends and such. (although I dont email T at all anymore, long story)
I guess I would say, it's hard but give him his space, give him some free time on weekends.

Use that time for self reflection, journaling or any other things you can think of to keep yourself distracted. I think it's normal to want to TRY to push limits with people but I really think those who don't even when tempted, are often more respected.

It's tough but you can do this. Maybe try writing letters or emails on the weekends but not actually sending, then talk about it in person. He can read them there if you are not comfortable. Good luck

Yes I think you’re right. I know I’m capable, I’m just surprised by the urges I have to want him to respond on weekends. I’m not sure what that’s all about.

You have probably heard the claim or saying that children need parents to set safe boundaries. Do you understand what this saying means? Also, how do children express this need for safe boundaries?

How did your parents set boundaries when you were a child (if at all)? How did they react if you did something that crossed the boundaries?

I had lots of experiences with excessive emailing, not just with Ts. It was a long-standing bad habit for me, a sort of addiction. I actually did not do it to draw attention so much and did not feel uncomfortable with no response, but the latter is exactly why I think it was unhealthy and addiction-like. It wasn't true interaction and interpersonal engagement a lot of the times, more lengthy monologues and a compulsive desire to express whatever was on my mind. It wasn't a desire/need for support or encouragement. But when people engaged, it reinforced it further. I did this most often as a distraction and avoidance instead of dealing with important things, so it truly was unproductive for me but a habit very difficult to break. I never really meant to push people's boundaries but of course it could be interpreted that way and sometimes I did alienate good people with it. I get their side much better now because I've managed to gave up that habit for the most part and I really don't like when someone bombards me with messages in chain, not respecting the fact that I have a life, I tend to lose my motivation to engage quite quickly and would usually just ignore them unless there is really something important we need to discuss. The lengthy monologues and not even allowing time for the other to participate in meaningful ways actually sometimes remind me of my father. I loved him dearly but his bouts of speaking compulsion was one feature most people did not tolerate well in him, including myself. So I don't like when I do it either because I know how it is to be on the other side. It is not an effective way to elicit response or support, kinda more the opposite, IMO. I guess a T should tolerate it better not not get frustrated, but I imagine they can still get turned off by excess.

Going from never asking for anything to wanting/pushing for too much might be interesting to explore in therapy, but I personally would try not to pick up a habit of the latter too much. It can be really uncomfortable and hard to break. When I first developed my habit, it was originally with a significant other, who welcomed it. But then, when the relationship ended, I kept transferring it to a lot of other people, eventually knowing full well what was going on with me, but still unable to stop for a long time.

I think there is a difference in really wanting to push the boundary (the goal is interpersonal) vs wanting to just somehow broadcast what's happening in your mind (the goal is not interpersonal). The latter indeed sounds addiction-like.

I have a schizoaffective acquaintance who has this need to just somehow broadcast her many thoughts when they occur to her in abundance. So during certain periods she tries to call me every day or email or message very frequently. We have sort of agreed that I do not criticise her for that but I decide for myself if and how much I will read/engage/respond. So she doesn't need to feel bad about trying to contact and she does not feel mad to me for not responding all the time.

However, it seems to me that this is not the process Lrad is talking about. I might be wrong but it seems to me that her attempt to contact is not because of broadcasting some information but a sort of communicative action itself. It seems to me that the goal of these actions would be to tell something to the T that is impossible to tell right now in words and in person. If that's true then this is not addiction-like at all but rather an attempt to really communicate something very important.

I sort of understand what you’re saying, but not completely. Can you please explain? I’m assuming there are some circumstances where a T might change a boundary. I haven’t asked him to, but I think about it a lot.

As for me, I pretty much did not cross any boundaries as a kid. I think I was afraid they’d take away their love if I wasn’t perfect, so I was exceedingly good.

Yes I pushed n pushed . Testing him for years

You did not answer my first question which was about what do you imagine it means that children need their parents to set boundaries. My guess is that you don't really grasp the meaning of this.

Regarding the second question, that's what I sort of expected. What it means that you couldn't rely on your parents to set the boundaries but had to do it yourself.

But you were a child too and had this need too and although you are an adult now, this need has not just vanished in itself. Thus, it seems to me that you are (unconsciously) trying to recreate the same situation where you are the child again and the T has to take the parental role and set the boundaries you need. If your T is good enough (and I really-really hope he is) then he is able to give you the experience that you did not get in childhood. An experiential understanding what does it mean to need a boundary set and get that need met.

The only way kids express this need is by pushing boundaries. It cannot happen when the child preventively just tries to be good all the time. If the child pushes the boundaries and the parent can handle it in a way that the child experiences that the parent is ok and everything is still ok in the relationship and the child herself is still ok in the eyes of the parent then this is a very valuable experience. It teaches you a lot of how to feel comfortable in the world while being imperfect and making mistakes, it teaches that you don't have to be perfect.

My guess it that you want your T to give you this experience and if you feel that it could be true then it makes perfect sense to want it. Also, good T's are able to provide this experience. I have gotten this experience from my T and this has been invaluable to my self-esteem. As a result, I don't have to be so individualistic and perfect anymore. It's not that I've cognitively said those things to myself, rather it really is different to me now.

Yes feileacan, I agree with you, I don't have the impression that OP is similar to me in this. What I wanted to bring across and probably it wasn't clear: the way it is received by another person can be similar if they don't know someone and their individual patterns and motives very well. My Ts misunderstood my email habit quite massively, especially the one who tended to get a lot wrong in general. The other one got it right gradually and just let me do it, probably much like you with your friend (and because he knew I had addiction issues, plus I think also some schizo-tendencies, it runs in my family).

The thing though is that it can still dilute the communication and/or make someone to strengthen their boundaries - there are so many stories here on PC about Ts changing boundaries, criticizing the client etc in response to excessive between-sessions reaching out. Or those who engage in erratic ways. That would not be too harmful for someone like me, but it seems to be for many people who reach out with a genuine desire for interpersonal engagement and encouragement.

Lrad, I also never crossed boundaries as a young kid as far as I recall. My parents did not set boundaries for me really, nothing I recall. I kept to myself a lot and typically waited for others to draw me out, but it wasn't because my parents limited me, just my choice. But I met a bunch of people in my teenage years who were quite unconventional and welcomed engaging with me in unusual ways. That pattern continued far into my adulthood, I was good at finding those people and got very used to not being subjected to conventional barriers that more traditional structures tend not to involve. So it was sort of a new experience when my Ts did not engage the same way, or not to the same extent, because they did as well, I was messing with them enough.

I do also think it is useful to recall what sorts of boundaries we had in our family of origin. My issue was that I had too little (along with any other instructions or discipline). That's a different problem. But I think those whose parents or other caregivers exposed them to too many and too strict limitations can be prone to craving breaking through those finally as adults, or at least probing whether it is possible. That is where intermittent reinforcement can become really frustrating and confusing, I think. For example, a T giving out mixed signals, sometimes welcoming (encouraging) reaching out but other times ignoring it.

This is helpful. Yes, you are right that my parents probably did not set boundaries. I was really good, though, and very much wanted to please them. I’m genuinely confused about how one would get this experience in therapy. I mean, it’s just some guy I see once/week. Are you willing to share your experience or give another example of how this could happen now in my adult life?

Maybe this has to do with an abandonment fear, like if they don't reply when I want them to, they must be mad or maybe they will leave etc. which is a good topic for therapy

It sucks, like I said, same rule with my T... but I just remind myself I wouldn't want to be bothered with work constantly either, they deserve that space away from work so I do my best to respect it. It doesn't mean he is sick of me (or that yours is sick of you) they just need their own time to reflect and do non work things. Everyone needs that.

I have read these same stories of T’s changing boundaries or criticizing the client for sending too many emails, etc, and although I would feel hurt/chastised/ashamed if that happened to me, I almost intensely crave it. How embarrassing is that? I think maybe feileacan has a point about the need for T to create a certain experience for me that maybe I missed as a child. I just don’t understand yet how that would work. I sure hope my T gets it.

I think I understand what feileacan means by creating a new experience, at least the idea of it. I am skeptical whether therapy can ever be sufficient for that due to its intrinsic limitations, but it wasn't part of my therapy so I don't know and some oeple claim it to work. I agree though that it would likely be very difficult, if not impossible, with once-a-week meetings. I think emails (however frequent) are not the same. For example, whenever I got compulsive, it was ALWAYS in emailing or other online communications. Never even felt the desire in person to distort/take over an interaction in similar ways, I like when it is mutual and equal, I even disliked when the T mostly just listened and provided little feedback in sessions. The emailing can be interesting though exactly because there is less direct feedback and sense of reality. I think part of the reason why traditional psychoanalysts have the client lie on a coach facing away from them is similar. I did not like lying on the coach in therapy when I tried because I would still perceive too much reality and found it very unnatural, but can really let go in writing. I did learn about myself and my motives through those years of compulsive emailing more than in a lot of other experiences, so it wasn't all bad. But it does not create a very good interpersonal experience if it is not balanced. If you have the urges to email the T, and when you do, I think it is useful to observe the content of the emails and what exactly the urge is about, what drives it in the moment.

This sounds so much like me as a kid. I rarely tested or pushed, aside from arguing with my parents some as a teen (and that was this huge deal to my mom, like, "I thought we had such a close relationship, why are you pushing back?" Not understanding it's a normal teenaged thing to do...) I also got the message that I had to be perfect--in school, in relationships (family, friends, romantic)--in order to keep people's love and caring.

And I think it's why I ended up testing ex-MC so much, because I didn't really get to do that as a child, and he played a paternal role for me. And why I'm testing current T at times--I don't see as paternal as much as I did ex-MC, but he's still an authority figure to me (as much as he may prefer to be seen as a "collaborator"). And why at times I find myself feeling like I have to be the "perfect client." Yet I also reach out more than maybe I should at times between sessions. For the most part, with one exception that stands out in my mind (basically, there was a misunderstanding about his availability that weekend), he's been very accepting of all that, the outside contact (including sending me a brief reassuring response yesterday when I was freaking out about sharing my feelings of love Friday). There have been other things that could be seen as tests/boundary pushing that he didn't pass so well. But the thing he keeps emphasizing to me, is that we may have had some conflicts, and maybe we've done things to make the other person uncomfortable, we've also worked through them, and he's not going anywhere. That I can continue to do things that make him a bit uncomfortable, and, unless I make a direct threat to him, something like that, he will work through it with me.

But in order for me to believe that, because of my parents and also what ultimately happened with ex-MC, it's like I need to see proof of that. I need to push boundaries a bit to confirm that he is in fact OK with it and isn't going to abandon me. Maybe sharing the love feelings Friday was a part of that, even though it's something I never intended to do (not just yesterday--ever). Ideally, realizing that he's not going anywhere will help me feel the same about others in my life. Or...I mean, I can't control whether anyone stays or leaves. I guess my goal is to accept that, to realize that it's not just me messing up or not being perfect that will cause someone to leave. That people can ideally choose to accept that I'm not going to be perfect (within reason--like as long as I'm not doing things intentionally to hurt them or completely ignoring them or whatever), and if they choose to leave, then that's on them, not me (again, within reason). Obviously, I'm not there yet, but I think that's kind of what this testing and boundary pushing is about. And it's theoretically safer to do in a therapy setting, assuming the T understands what's going on. And as long as it's within reason (like, I'm not expecting my T to be understanding if, say, I figure out where he lives, then park my car across the street and use binoculars to spy on him and his family).

I'm seriously rambling here...I'm just trying to say that it's completely normal to have the desire to push boundaries, particularly if you didn't really do that as a child for whatever reason (or if your parents responded poorly to it). I think it would be good to have a conversation with your T about those desires and what they're about.

Being "really good" as a child often means not being free to express (or even fully feel) all of your emotions, especially the tricky ones like anger and jealousy. That subtle prohibition on learning how to feel, express, and cope with intense "forbidden" emotions can cause a whole cascade of problems later in life.

So I’m learning . . .

Exactly. Like I was taught (partly because I never saw it expressed in my home) that anger wasn't OK. Such that, in adulthood, if anyone became angry at me, it felt like the end of the world, that surely I'd be abandoned. And it kept me from even really able to feel anger at others for a long time--I mostly just directed it inward.

And I also got the message that it wasn't OK to cry that much And this led me to be like, "Oh no, I cried for the first time in front of my boyfriend, now they're going to leave me." Or "I cried at work when I got a bad review, clearly I'm getting fired."

I've even apologized to ex-MC and current T for crying...which, I mean, I'm in a therapist's office. If I can't cry there, where can I cry? (I let the tears flow pretty freely with current T now...to the point that he's joked about getting me the industrial size box of tissues--like good-natured joking, not critical joking).

Seriously, you are very lucky your T has strong boundaries. Im going through a type of hell right now cause mine doesn't. To the point i filed an ethics complaint against her and it was accepted. She had no boundaries then i got her in trouble by accident then she abandoned me completely at the first sight of personal trouble. This is after months of me keeping my mouth shut and defending and protecting her reputation. Thank God it doesn't hurt like it used to. I totally understand qanting that closeness. I wanted it so bad and i got it. When my T was on her honeymoon she was dreaming about me ( actually having nightmares tjat somwthing bad happened to me) She said no contact but told me when she got back that she almost contacted me she was so worried. To be honest it felt good. It felt really good to know that she was thinking of me cause i was definitely rhinking about her. In the end though, she was mitigating and gaslighting me. In the end she completely abandoned me. Anyway sorry for venting but i actually envy you in a way
All the good stuff wasnt worth what happened in the end

It can happen in such a way that you do push the boundaries and the T will respond in a way that is not rejecting, even when he feels he has to establish tighter boundaries.

I mean, you do want to push the boundaries so that he would react. Thus, it would not be helpful if he would be infinitely enabling (i.e. moving away from you with the boundaries). I believe it could be helpful if he will stay where he is, not push back forcefully (to push you away, ie reject) but sort of indicate that "this is where I am, I am not letting you to do all those things but I will stay with you and I'm not going to leave you".

Well, my own experience is in this respect pretty simple. I've pushed tons of boundaries. My T has enabled some things when he felt that I really need it (emails, calls, covering me with a blanket, putting a quilt on the couch so I wouldn't have to feel the body warmth of the previous person). He has taken away all this stuff though once he felt that I don't need them anymore and providing these things is not helping me anymore. He tolerated and survived all my attacks and accusations after taking away these things. After some time of pushing back and being angry I found that he was right - I did not need those things anymore, indeed. Rather, I became grateful that he provided me these things for a period of time where I probably really needed them.

At the same time, he has not been rigid. He has still accepted and even answered some email because they were not coming from that combative boundary-pushing part of me anymore but rather from a completely different self-reflective part that attempted to connect to another human being (him) and share something I found important. He said he answered because he felt he needed to do that.

And then there have been other more serious boundary tests. I don't want to really list them here in public forum but let's say that I have done all sorts of crazy things in session. Few times he has had to physically throw me out, few times he has had to warn me that if I cannot conduct myself in session then our treatment will end because it is impossible to do therapy in such conditions and if it is impossible to do therapy then we have no reasons to meet anymore.

All the while he has been there for me and I have been able to find the defiant child in me that was suppressed when I was a child. I'm ok now that I have this child in me, for some time now I haven't felt the need to push any boundaries. Rather, I'm much more now able to bring my emotions and my self into session and to be present and connected with T.

By the way, lying on the couch and looking away does not hinder emotional contact at all. It's all there in the silence, in the tone of voice of both of us, in the movement of me on the couch and him in his chair. I can hear him breathing, I can hear/feel him leaning forward in his chair and looking at me.

Well those boundaries happened because of something I did in May that freaked him out. Before, I had none contact wise, however I have always had the desire to keep people distance, therefore creating my own, so I never bothered him much.

He has iffy boundaries honestly... alot of grey areas stuff. I love it though. I know it will crumble on me at some point but for now, I'm happy.... when it all ends, I will just have to find a way to move on.

I'm sorry things went bad for you. It's sad how many people go to therapy in hopes to trust their therapist and they end up being hurt very badly

This is sort of what happened today. I expressed concern about sending too many emails over the weekend (3 in 3 days) and burdening him with them in such a way that he might resent me. He basically responded (in a gentle sort of way) that I must not think he’s capable, and it’s not up to me to worry about how he feels about my emails. He also hinted that since it’s an email and not a phone call, he can read them at his leisure and doesn’t feel pressure to read them right away. I also got the message (although he didn’t exactly say it) that he still won’t reply on weekends. I felt good about the conversation.