[LonesomeTonight]

So T and I have been discussing quite a bit about my attachment to male authority figures (back to high school--which was...a considerable number of years ago...and as recently as my attachment to ex-MC and, well, current T) and what it's all about. He suggested journaling about why I felt attachment to each person. I'm struggling with how to do that exactly. Like I can come up with things like "made me feel accepted," but I feel I need to be going deeper than that. Has anyone done something like this? Any suggestions? It feels especially awkward, as I guess I need to include stuff about T in this list, but he's seemed much more comfortable with my transference lately (like he's done a complete 180 on that) and understands how discussing it (regarding him and others) is important for my therapy.

[ArtleyWilkins]

What did YOU want from those individuals? What were YOU looking for from those people?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

What did YOU want from those individuals? What were YOU looking for from those people?

Good questions, thanks!

[MoxieDoxie]

I attach to male authority figures. They make me feel safe and cared for. That they will be the protector of the the abused little Moxie.

[SlumberKitty]

For me, I've always had more maternal attachment issues like with teachers, T's etc. I think because my Dad was a good enough Dad, but my Mom had a lot of problems being mentally ill and struggling so much, I didn't feel like I got enough love from my Mom. I do now. But not when I was growing up. I tried to find ways to get that love from my Mom, but it wasn't enough and I was left with a huge hole/scar that I now use mal-adaptive measures like SH to fill. For me, it all came down to the relationship with my Mom and all the things I missed out on as a kid. And it's weird because even though we have a good but complicated relationship now, it doesn't fix what happened to me as a kid because of her mental illness and instability. So I attach to females in authority, trying to fulfill those needs from long ago. Maybe its something like that for you? HUGS Kit

[Omers]

Thanks for posting this.
For many years I attached very strongly to women needing to make up for what my mom could never be. Then there were some really bad experiences and I didn’t really attach. Now I am with Awesome T and we are working to identify support people both past and present. We have both been surprized that every single one I have brought up so far are men... men who meant the world to me even though I couldn’t get close to them or have any kind of relationship with them.
I attached to people who could see me enough that I felt loved (like knowing what I would want for dinner on my birthday) but not so much that I felt vulnerable.

[coolibrarian]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Good questions, thanks!

What did those you were attached to, gift you? Their time, space, pride, etc.?

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for the comments so far. Much like you with your mom, SK, I feel closer to my dad now than when I was younger. Like he's much more free with the "I love you's." One thing that sticks in my mind regarding him is, when I was having lots of anxiety issues at around age 12, which were upsetting my mom, that he loved my mom a little more than me. Which felt like, if I had mental illness, I was less loveable. Like it felt that he didn't have compassion for me struggling with it, but for my mom, who had to deal with me. So I think part of the attaching to male T's who are also fathers (ex-MC and T) is like, well, they'd have understood my anxiety and OCD issues. They wouldn't have rejected me or loved me less for it.

ETA: Ex-MC talking about how he helped his daughter and later his son with their anxiety issues only contributed to this...T hasn't talked much about his son, but he's talked about how he feels parents should ideally be (which he's said doesn't mean he's that way).

I've been thinking a lot about this topic lately... why I was so super attached to L. She represented a good enough mother, and also in my heart she 'felt' like my long-deceased much loved grandma and R (hs creative writing teacher that I adored) all rolled into one. Of course she isn't any of that. But still. I really don't have anything else yet....

[tomatenoir]

I've looked at the people who I wanted to feel close to in the past, and then considered the ways they were different. This helped me eliminate the superfluous and zone in on what they had in common.

I also try to catch myself when I feel a desire to be close to other people in very brief exchanges (which I think is more helpful than looking backwards). When you have relationships with those people objectivity gets harder.

Since leaving therapy I've wanted to feel close to my mortgage adviser and even the doctor who saw me for two minutes this morning -- it's always men who are good at their jobs and care about me (but with limited or no emotion attached). They're generally in their thirties or early forties.

I know it's wrapped up in wanting my wonderful, loving, much adored but emotionally inept dad's attention. I want to feel special to the person I most love and admire. I want them to find something great in me, the same way I see something great in them.

Then I considered what I was doing when with these people. Mostly I was trying to make myself loveable and intelligent. My brain is still just trying to figure out an unsolvable problem.

The feelings don't change, but at least I'm not blind in the interactions.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by tomatenoir

I've looked at the people who I wanted to feel close to in the past, and then considered the ways they were different. This helped me eliminate the superfluous and zone in on what they had in common.

I also try to catch myself when I feel a desire to be close to other people in very brief exchanges (which I think is more helpful than looking backwards). When you have relationships with those people objectivity gets harder.

Since leaving therapy I've wanted to feel close to my mortgage adviser and even the doctor who saw me for two minutes this morning -- it's always men who are good at their jobs and care about me (but with limited or no emotion attached). They're generally in their thirties or early forties.

I know it's wrapped up in wanting my wonderful, loving, much adored but emotionally inept dad's attention. I want to feel special to the person I most love and admire. I want them to find something great in me, the same way I see something great in them.

Then I considered what I was doing when with these people. Mostly I was trying to make myself loveable and intelligent. My brain is still just trying to figure out an unsolvable problem.

The feelings don't change, but at least I'm not blind in the interactions.

Thanks for sharing--you seem very in touch with your feelings/reactions. This fits quite a bit with me. I feel I was mainly looking for acceptance and understanding, feeling like I was loveable, and that I had something to offer the world. Like people who believed in my abilities--high school journalism teacher thinking I had potential, for example.

[SalingerEsme]

My senior year of high school ( boarding school) , I had a year long affair with a teacher ( he was 26). I liked that he seemed to promote me to adult, thought I was "sophisticated" for my age, and taught me to drink whiskey and play Ultimate Frisbee. It was tough to get my homework done though, and keep all my bonds with friends and classmates. Weirdly, my parents were fine with it. I felt like I was torn, leading a double life. It was romantic and also in this changed political landscape abusive(??). I'm quite frightened of authority, and will try to please on the surface, but rebel in my mind. I relate that way to bosses professors etc. They have my attention. My T takes great pains to be the safest male human on earth. Nothing would make him set ethics aside. That means the world to me- he is the least "creepy" human male ever, but yet I am ambivalent bc I don't , down deep, think/trust that he cares about me as much as if we did have that affair.

[Anne2.0]

For me, I've had healthy attachments with authority figures, male and female, and unhealthy attachments. The unhealthy attachments are easy to see in retrospect: the ones who took advantage of me, sexually (although I thought at the time it was mutual) or in other ways (free labor, adoration, etc). I think my significant relationships, romantic or not, are always first grounded in an intellectual connection before there is any other kind of connection. I like to talk about ideas and books and how the world works. In college and in graduate school, I had male mentors who were very healthy attachments-- they validated my smarts, they spent time with me and taught me academic things in the context of close relationships in advising and research. Both men were fundamentally important at the start of my career. There were limited personal connections while I was still in school, i.e. we were friendly but the boundaries were appropriate. The attachment was healthy because I saw them as real people-- I always stayed away from the guru-types-- and neither side wanted anything more.

[LonesomeTonight]

Anne, your post made me think...could some of the "authority figures" for me be someone around my own age and place in life, who I dated, for example? I think of a couple people that I dated--one particularly stands out, but also a longer-term boyfriend in college--where I felt they had some authority over me. Like, for the one, I felt inferior to him and like I was trying to be accepted. The college one, we both had mental health issues, but he'd put all the blame on mine and say I needed counseling, while he didn't.

Possible trigger:

Meanwhile, he'd talk about wanting to die and say how I was the only thing keeping him alive.

But with him it felt like...how he felt about me determined whether I was OK or not. It was a rather tumultuous relationship at times, like he might say at one point he wanted to marry me, then a few weeks later want to break up with me, then a few weeks after that talk about marrying me again (in retrospect, think he may have had bipolar I). But it was like my self-worth revolved so much around him (and he was my age). Is he (and the other guy) someone you'd think should be listed as "authority figures" of some sort? I guess I'm thinking of both people who had power over me based on their role (like a teacher) and then also those to whom I granted power. Also thinking of another guy, who said, when I broke up with him, that "A few months ago, you wouldn't have been strong enough to break up with me." Like he'd made me stronger.

[DP_2017]

Just seeing this post. I assume you've already written your stuff but I will comment anyway

First... ask yourself why do you consider T's "authority figures"? Your own T has even told you he isn't. Is this REALLY about "authority figures" or something else? It's a bit interesting that you only have this issue with men but you have alot of issues from the past with your mom. I feel like if things are better, good with your dad now, it's likely not this at all anymore. I still think it's probably likely related to what I suggested before, and it's why you seek love/attention from other men. Maybe talking to T about that part and how you can work on some possible solutions for it might be worth it.

Second... we are very different people in our past and now. Every teenager is going through tough stuff etc, The thing is, those things made you who you are today. good or bad. Without all those experiences you would be a different LT today. I try to remind myself
of that stuff often when I get stuck on stuff from the past.

Lastly... when it comes to journaling, I find it best to not over think, just write whatever comes to mind, be present with your feelings even if it doesn't always make sense. It might be more helpful to write in "letter form" such as .... Dear Ex T... and then just write.

Hopefully you are able to work through this mindset of authority figure T stuff, I feel like it keeps getting you "stuck"... so maybe your T can help you. I am terrible with words as you know and I am not really wanting to post on PC much anymore but I consider you a friend and found this post interesting so I wanted to pop in, I don't mean any offense by my words. Have a good session today either way and I hope that the journalling is helpful to you

[SalingerEsme]

I do think T's are authority figures in the room in the sense LT describes, as they enforce the frame & rules. Much of therapy takes place on their terms, and the limits are theirs. (Someone of this forum once described therapy as one person standing naked in front of someone who has all their clothes on .)

[DP_2017]

I disagree. Clients have a lot more "authority" in their own therapy than they realize. No one is forcing them to say or do anything. The therapists are not authority figures to other T's, they are merely equals, but one is listening, the other is talking. Not every T holds back completely, some are human and make their clients feel more like equals. The client pays them, the client can fire them, the client can report, the client cay say no to topics or limit how much they say etc

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

I do think T's are authority figures in the room in the sense LT describes, as they enforce the frame & rules. Much of therapy takes place on their terms, and the limits are theirs. (Someone of this forum once described therapy as one person standing naked in front of someone who has all their clothes on .)

This is a good analogy. It makes me think of how when I told T I wanted to play a song for him, he was like, "I'd feel really awkward if you were staring at me the whole time watching for my reaction." And I said (the next session): "Well, then you'd know how I feel all the time every session."

I've talked to T about feeling he has more power than me, and he said he feels the client has all the power because they can just leave whenever, and he couldn't just ethically terminate. I said that might be true, but he could change the rules or how he reacts to me enough that I'd (or another client would) want to leave. Like if he unilaterally decided I couldn't email anymore, for example, without us really discussing it. Or he could decide to raise his rate by $50 a session. Or wouldn't let me discuss a particular topic. And then he understood. And like you said about the frame, SE, he sets the time limits. I couldn't be like, "You know, I could use an extra half hour today. I'm not ready to leave yet." And he would say I had to leave. I think of once when I was sobbing at the end of session with ex-T (who was really strict on time), and I kept trying to talk more, and she was like, "You need to leave NOW!" or something like that. I'd like to believe that if I was out with a friend, say, and was really upset, that they wouldn't be like, "OK, we've paid the check at the restaurant, time's up, bye!" and leave me sobbing in the parking lot. Well, maybe some would...or I guess if they had to go pick up their kid or something, but they'd likely check in with me later at least, which my T wouldn't do.

this may or may not fit at all but for whatever it is worth "authority figures" are only that when -and I will speak in an "I" term here as this is how it went for me-I made them into one. Perhaps because so much of my abuse came at the hands of them becoming attached has not been my particular problem. Though I can see how it works on the other side.

[DP_2017]

LT

I'd consider those examples of boundaries, we ALL have boundaries. We can set them with T's as well. They are professional so in that sense they need boundaries but I'd still not say they are an authority figure. Ya he COULD do those things but, then you COULD report him for being unethical or you COULD quit etc.

Every single T I've seen, has said that I can't control other people's reactions. Only mine. That is true. This is just part of being human.

You are giving your T the power, by allowing him to be an authority figure to you. That was all I was saying about journaling, really think about WHY you see them this way and if it REALLY is about authority.... again, why would you not have this with women if you have issues with your mom too? I think it's something else. I've discussed privately with you but wont say here, I still believe it. There is a reason you are seeking attention and love from all these other men, that is the issue that you need to figure out how to work through. It doesn't have to have a label.

At any rate, we can debate it until the cows come home, but that wasn't my point at all. I was merely getting you to ask yourself for journaling reasons why you see it this way and how you can maybe work on changing that to help yourself move forward?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Just seeing this post. I assume you've already written your stuff but I will comment anyway

First... ask yourself why do you consider T's "authority figures"? Your own T has even told you he isn't. Is this REALLY about "authority figures" or something else? It's a bit interesting that you only have this issue with men but you have alot of issues from the past with your mom. I feel like if things are better, good with your dad now, it's likely not this at all anymore. I still think it's probably likely related to what I suggested before, and it's why you seek love/attention from other men. Maybe talking to T about that part and how you can work on some possible solutions for it might be worth it.

Second... we are very different people in our past and now. Every teenager is going through tough stuff etc, The thing is, those things made you who you are today. good or bad. Without all those experiences you would be a different LT today. I try to remind myself
of that stuff often when I get stuck on stuff from the past.

Lastly... when it comes to journaling, I find it best to not over think, just write whatever comes to mind, be present with your feelings even if it doesn't always make sense. It might be more helpful to write in "letter form" such as .... Dear Ex T... and then just write.

Hopefully you are able to work through this mindset of authority figure T stuff, I feel like it keeps getting you "stuck"... so maybe your T can help you. I am terrible with words as you know and I am not really wanting to post on PC much anymore but I consider you a friend and found this post interesting so I wanted to pop in, I don't mean any offense by my words. Have a good session today either way and I hope that the journalling is helpful to you

Thanks for your comments--no offense taken! I feel like T seeming more open to talking about things like transference lately is really helping me. He seems to realize now how it does affect other parts of my life, and if I keep repeating a pattern, then it's worth examining. Even if it may feel a bit awkward for him. Part of the issue with ex-MC is that we were so limited in how much we could talk about it. And ex-T wasn't too helpful with it--she'd say things like, "Your transference for him is as intense as it gets!" which is like, "great, that's really helpful."

With the journaling, I was trying to just sort of brainstorm, in list form really, like words I associate with the person. Trying to not overthink it.

I know you're likely referencing stuff with my H with your asking if it's about authority figures or something else. I'm not really sure. I think there are elements of that there--it was certainly part of what was going on with ex-MC. We'd all be sitting in the room together, I'd be crying, and ex-MC would be the one comforting me (verbally, no touch or anything), which H just sat there like a stone. And ex-MC would say "It's OK" if I apologized, while H often got angry at me if I said I was sorry about something (even like, "Sorry I didn't get to the dishes today.") Ex-MC seemed to understand me on a level that H didn't. He got why I needed reassurance, for example.

With current T, there's not that same level of understanding or reassurance as with ex-MC. But lately I feel accepted by him. And this may seem like such a seemingly minor thing on the surface, but it's like he notices things about me. He'll ask if a shirt I'm wearing is new (he's generally right) or compliment my shoes (like printed sneakers, not like heels or anything). If I seem to get randomly upset in the middle of him talking, he'll ask what's going on. If I seem anxious (well, more so than usual), he'll comment on that and ask what it's about. Where if I seem anxious to H, he'll seem annoyed, if anything. If I'm crying, he wouldn't generally say anything. So it's like I feel really seen by T. (Even though I'm aware he's trained to pick up on body language, etc. as a T.)

T also said recently that maybe it isn't so much about my dad, but about the first type of person I felt attracted to. Like maybe I'm drawn to men of a particular age (teacher, ex-MC, and T were/are around same age when I knew them), and that's more what it's about.

One last thing (thinking out loud here!)--you're right that my mom is more the issue, but with ex-T, I had negative maternal transference. Which made the therapy difficult at times. I think I had that with my grad school advisor (also female) as well. I tend to feel more open talking to and showing emotion to men (and always have). All stuff I can talk about with T in a few hours.

[DP_2017]

"With current T, there's not that same level of understanding or reassurance as with ex-MC. But lately I feel accepted by him. And this may seem like such a seemingly minor thing on the surface, but it's like he notices things about me. He'll ask if a shirt I'm wearing is new (he's generally right) or compliment my shoes (like printed sneakers, not like heels or anything). If I seem to get randomly upset in the middle of him talking, he'll ask what's going on. If I seem anxious (well, more so than usual), he'll comment on that and ask what it's about. Where if I seem anxious to H, he'll seem annoyed, if anything. If I'm crying, he wouldn't generally say anything. So it's like I feel really seen by T. (Even though I'm aware he's trained to pick up on body language, etc. as a T.) "

This is exactly what I was saying, you are missing something with H and seeking it from other men, things that your H should be able to give you. That was why I was saying, you should talk to T about this and figure out what, if anything, you can do to fix it. You ideally should be feeling like you are really seen by the person you chose to marry. I truly do think MC would be good for you guys again, with a woman but that's up to you both obviously.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

I do think T's are authority figures in the room in the sense LT describes, as they enforce the frame & rules. Much of therapy takes place on their terms, and the limits are theirs. (Someone of this forum once described therapy as one person standing naked in front of someone who has all their clothes on .)

You are only as naked with ts as you choose to be

[stopdog]

I actually don’t think spouses are there to fill every need you have.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I actually don’t think spouses are there to fill every need you have.

Oh, I don't think they should fill every need either. I have friends (and family, I guess) who fill some of those other needs. And, well, a therapist. I guess there are just a few basic things that I'd want from a spouse. But maybe I expect too much, I don't know.