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Old Sep 03, 2019, 06:11 PM
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MoxieDoxie MoxieDoxie is offline
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For those that have read my previous post know my severe attachment to my T. I have said to him that he has peeled the layers of me like an onion leaving me vulnerable and he took my walls down. This has left me very exposed and that he is the one that has really seen me that I have been able to be vulnerable with. Because of that he is the only one I feel than can really emotionally hurt me. He said stop being vulnerable and put my walls back up and only let about 10% down because you do not need to let defenses down or walls down or be vulnerable for therapy to work.

That really left me scratching my head. How can I even talk to him if I put everything back up. My defenses and walls is to be condescending and obnoxious or not talk at all.

He still does not address my intense attachment to him directly at all.
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When a child’s emotional needs are not met and a child is repeatedly hurt and abused, this deeply and profoundly affects the child’s development. Wanting those unmet childhood needs in adulthood. Looking for safety, protection, being cherished and loved can often be normal unmet needs in childhood, and the survivor searches for these in other adults. This can be where survivors search for mother and father figures. Transference issues in counseling can occur and this is normal for childhood abuse survivors.
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  #2  
Old Sep 03, 2019, 06:36 PM
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SalingerEsme SalingerEsme is offline
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This worries me, just on the face of it. It is a very untherapisty thing to say, and also almost cruel. Could you walk me through again what you said to him about transference that created this rift? It seems like he needs consultation with a very wise and experienced relational psychologist. I wish you could get out, and into the care of someone more relational . I am so sorry. It’s so painful .
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  #3  
Old Sep 03, 2019, 06:51 PM
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MoxieDoxie MoxieDoxie is offline
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The emails on my attachment explained how I felt like my self worth and Identity was coming from him and without him I felt empty and I could just die. He was the catalyst to all my successes in therapy and outside of therapy. The he is the one that is like the wind under my wings and he brings color to my world. When I think about him not being there anymore all my issue come back and I feel like I never went to therapy.
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When a child’s emotional needs are not met and a child is repeatedly hurt and abused, this deeply and profoundly affects the child’s development. Wanting those unmet childhood needs in adulthood. Looking for safety, protection, being cherished and loved can often be normal unmet needs in childhood, and the survivor searches for these in other adults. This can be where survivors search for mother and father figures. Transference issues in counseling can occur and this is normal for childhood abuse survivors.
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  #4  
Old Sep 03, 2019, 06:53 PM
ArtleyWilkins ArtleyWilkins is offline
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I had a therapist once talk about maintaining healthy boundaries. Basically, healthy boundaries are not all the same for every circumstance; healthy boundaries are flexible.

I kind of see what he is saying along they same lines. We have to be able to listen to ourselves and maintain our own measured control over our own revelations, emotions, etc.

I had a big ol' suit of armor up when it came to my emotions and my ability to be vulnerable, but my therapist didn't ask, expect, or even recommend that I throw it all off at once nor permanently. He always said it was perfectly fine to just take of that left gauntlet for a few minutes and then put it back on if I needed to to feel safe. Over time, maybe I can take off both, or I can leave them off a bit longer. Even when I was able to throw off most of my armor, he recommended keeping it close by. I might need it for certain people; not everyone is safe. I might need it in certain circumstances; if I wasn't feeling as strong and simply needed the safety of more protection for awhile, it was okay to put it back on for awhile.
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  #5  
Old Sep 03, 2019, 07:02 PM
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MoxieDoxie MoxieDoxie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins View Post
I had a therapist once talk about maintaining healthy boundaries. Basically, healthy boundaries are not all the same for every circumstance; healthy boundaries are flexible.

I kind of see what he is saying along they same lines. We have to be able to listen to ourselves and maintain our own measured control over our own revelations, emotions, etc.

I had a big ol' suit of armor up when it came to my emotions and my ability to be vulnerable, but my therapist didn't ask, expect, or even recommend that I throw it all off at once nor permanently. He always said it was perfectly fine to just take of that left gauntlet for a few minutes and then put it back on if I needed to to feel safe. Over time, maybe I can take off both, or I can leave them off a bit longer. Even when I was able to throw off most of my armor, he recommended keeping it close by. I might need it for certain people; not everyone is safe. I might need it in certain circumstances; if I wasn't feeling as strong and simply needed the safety of more protection for awhile, it was okay to put it back on for awhile.
I have been with him for a year and a half so it is not like I was vulnerable all at once or let my walls down all at once. First of all I felt safe and cared for to do so and was grateful I could since trust was always an issue. But now that I did I was left exposed and really felt it when my attachment became painful and my feelings were not acknowledged my him.
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When a child’s emotional needs are not met and a child is repeatedly hurt and abused, this deeply and profoundly affects the child’s development. Wanting those unmet childhood needs in adulthood. Looking for safety, protection, being cherished and loved can often be normal unmet needs in childhood, and the survivor searches for these in other adults. This can be where survivors search for mother and father figures. Transference issues in counseling can occur and this is normal for childhood abuse survivors.
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  #6  
Old Sep 03, 2019, 07:48 PM
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ScarletPimpernel ScarletPimpernel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins View Post
I had a therapist once talk about maintaining healthy boundaries. Basically, healthy boundaries are not all the same for every circumstance; healthy boundaries are flexible.

I kind of see what he is saying along they same lines. We have to be able to listen to ourselves and maintain our own measured control over our own revelations, emotions, etc.

I had a big ol' suit of armor up when it came to my emotions and my ability to be vulnerable, but my therapist didn't ask, expect, or even recommend that I throw it all off at once nor permanently. He always said it was perfectly fine to just take of that left gauntlet for a few minutes and then put it back on if I needed to to feel safe. Over time, maybe I can take off both, or I can leave them off a bit longer. Even when I was able to throw off most of my armor, he recommended keeping it close by. I might need it for certain people; not everyone is safe. I might need it in certain circumstances; if I wasn't feeling as strong and simply needed the safety of more protection for awhile, it was okay to put it back on for awhile.
That's a beautiful analogy. And I'm sure my Ts would agree with it.

I just told L my secret last Friday. I was basically as vulnerable as I could get. Now I put back up my walls to protect me from any possible damage. Later, when I feel more level, I'll open myself up again. It might be as early as this Friday or a month from now. But it's up to me when to choose when and who to be vulnerable with.
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  #7  
Old Sep 03, 2019, 08:11 PM
here today here today is offline
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I do not think that therapists really understand much about this at all. They have some interesting ideas and concepts I can relate to, and are a start, perhaps, at some general understanding, but that is it as far as I can see.

I would really like to read some stories of people who have successfully been through this stuff and made it to the other side. Maybe it would tell something about the journey and some clues. Maybe it's just us clients who have to find our way, or not, but maybe there are some clues for therapists, too?

For me it was all or nothing. So no putting up 90% of the brick wall, the concrete block house was not an option. Just wasn't. Inside there was -- still is -- a burned infant, with no epidermis, it was all burned off. Well, maybe there's a little skin now, but I still so remember the feeling of that burned infant, once I re-felt it in the rejection and contemptuous glances of my last therapist -- reenactment? Probably, it still was horrible hurt, and she couldn't tolerate my cries and complaining about it. Numb the infant out and put the concrete block house completely back up? I could still do that, but what would be the point?

On the other hand -- and please let me know if you don't want to hear this kind of thing from me -- the following comments of yours:

Quote:
The emails on my attachment explained how I felt like my self worth and Identity was coming from him and without him I felt empty and I could just die. He was the catalyst to all my successes in therapy and outside of therapy. The he is the one that is like the wind under my wings and he brings color to my world. When I think about him not being there anymore all my issue come back and I feel like I never went to therapy.
reminds me of the idea that Kohut's self-objects are needed to create or bolster a sense of self. You FEEL LIKE your self worth is coming from him and this is a deep, early non-logical relational process. Needed for the development of a healthy self and independent, psychological skin (not wall). In the self-object concept, the others ARE us, in a way, for awhile developmentally at least. What you have written here is definitely consistent with that theory, and maybe if psychologists understood that process better, even if it's just from the outside, not the inside like us, it might help.

I tried to talk about this kind of stuff with my last T, to use my cognition to try to help put things together and understand, but she wouldn't have it. SHE had to be the expert, or something. So -- if these ideas are helpful, you can keep them to yourself, they belong to you, if you want them. Toss them out if you don't.
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  #8  
Old Sep 04, 2019, 03:58 AM
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MoxieDoxie MoxieDoxie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by here today View Post
I do not think that therapists really understand much about this at all. They have some interesting ideas and concepts I can relate to, and are a start, perhaps, at some general understanding, but that is it as far as I can see.

I would really like to read some stories of people who have successfully been through this stuff and made it to the other side. Maybe it would tell something about the journey and some clues. Maybe it's just us clients who have to find our way, or not, but maybe there are some clues for therapists, too?

For me it was all or nothing. So no putting up 90% of the brick wall, the concrete block house was not an option. Just wasn't. Inside there was -- still is -- a burned infant, with no epidermis, it was all burned off. Well, maybe there's a little skin now, but I still so remember the feeling of that burned infant, once I re-felt it in the rejection and contemptuous glances of my last therapist -- reenactment? Probably, it still was horrible hurt, and she couldn't tolerate my cries and complaining about it. Numb the infant out and put the concrete block house completely back up? I could still do that, but what would be the point?

On the other hand -- and please let me know if you don't want to hear this kind of thing from me -- the following comments of yours:


reminds me of the idea that Kohut's self-objects are needed to create or bolster a sense of self. You FEEL LIKE your self worth is coming from him and this is a deep, early non-logical relational process. Needed for the development of a healthy self and independent, psychological skin (not wall). In the self-object concept, the others ARE us, in a way, for awhile developmentally at least. What you have written here is definitely consistent with that theory, and maybe if psychologists understood that process better, even if it's just from the outside, not the inside like us, it might help.

I tried to talk about this kind of stuff with my last T, to use my cognition to try to help put things together and understand, but she wouldn't have it. SHE had to be the expert, or something. So -- if these ideas are helpful, you can keep them to yourself, they belong to you, if you want them. Toss them out if you don't.

Kohut’s Self Psychology

Kohut (1971, 1977, 1984) emphasized how early caregiving experiences play an important role in fostering the development of a cohesive sense of self by meeting critical
developmental needs, needs he referred to as selfobject needs. According to Kohut (1984),
there are three major types of selfobject needs that influence the developing self:
mirroring, idealizing, and twinship. A healthy mirroring selfobject experience, such as
being the gleam in the parent’s eye, facilitates self-esteem, ambitions, and the ability to
assert oneself later in life. Unlike mirroring needs, idealizing selfobject needs stem from
the desire to rely on or merge with an idealized other in times of stress, similar to a desire
to seek the resources of a secure attachment figure. When idealizing selfobject needs are
met, they foster a healthy sense of ideals and internal values and promote self-soothing
and emotion regulation. Selfobject needs for twinship include our need to belong, to be
acknowledged as a fellow human being, and to feel connected to a similar other. Twinship
selfobject needs that are met facilitate a sense of connection to a larger group, intimacy,
and feelings of belongingness.
__________________
When a child’s emotional needs are not met and a child is repeatedly hurt and abused, this deeply and profoundly affects the child’s development. Wanting those unmet childhood needs in adulthood. Looking for safety, protection, being cherished and loved can often be normal unmet needs in childhood, and the survivor searches for these in other adults. This can be where survivors search for mother and father figures. Transference issues in counseling can occur and this is normal for childhood abuse survivors.
Thanks for this!
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  #9  
Old Sep 04, 2019, 04:18 AM
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MoxieDoxie MoxieDoxie is offline
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I would really like to send him that but it is all futile. I do feel defeated here. For years all I read was it was important to tell your therapist about your attachment and feelings for him. I held back thinking now way I feel too much shame. The things I read would say they therapist is trained not to make you feel shame and would be able to handle it.

What a moron I was for telling him.
__________________
When a child’s emotional needs are not met and a child is repeatedly hurt and abused, this deeply and profoundly affects the child’s development. Wanting those unmet childhood needs in adulthood. Looking for safety, protection, being cherished and loved can often be normal unmet needs in childhood, and the survivor searches for these in other adults. This can be where survivors search for mother and father figures. Transference issues in counseling can occur and this is normal for childhood abuse survivors.
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  #10  
Old Sep 04, 2019, 04:38 AM
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MoxieDoxie MoxieDoxie is offline
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http://https://www.apa.org/pubs/jour...p-a0036866.pdf

Geez did they write this paper about me?

Adults with more attachment anxiety tend to
express more symptoms to engage others in what has been described as hyperactivating
strategies. These strategies are unconscious efforts to garner the other’s attention and
reinforce the interaction in which one feels cared for. Fosha (2000) describes anxiously
attached adults as having the capacity to feel but not deal with their emotions. They seek
out the reassurance from others and this bolsters their sense of self-esteem. This is similar
to Kohut’s notion that mirror hungry individuals lack a true sense of self and are often
maintaining their sense of self-esteem by seeking admiration from others
__________________
When a child’s emotional needs are not met and a child is repeatedly hurt and abused, this deeply and profoundly affects the child’s development. Wanting those unmet childhood needs in adulthood. Looking for safety, protection, being cherished and loved can often be normal unmet needs in childhood, and the survivor searches for these in other adults. This can be where survivors search for mother and father figures. Transference issues in counseling can occur and this is normal for childhood abuse survivors.
Thanks for this!
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  #11  
Old Sep 04, 2019, 04:44 AM
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SalingerEsme SalingerEsme is offline
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I met with a psychoanalyst who explained the worse the developmental trauma, the longer a period of safe dependency needs to flourish, and the the patient slowly will integrate the care and consistency and step by tiny step find their own real life . Can’t be rushed, must happen. YourvT seems freaked out bc of either ciuntertranceference or a lack of good training to take care of you .
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  #12  
Old Sep 04, 2019, 11:05 AM
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Emdr T and I discussed this quite a bit especially early on. She doesn't think I person should ever completely take the wall down. For a person with trauma history those walls served a very good purpose. That wall is our way of surviving and protecting ourselves. Even if I get to the point where my trauma is no longer a major issue and AI no longer need therapy I still need that wall. She feels to completely tear that wall down even with her is setting myself up for future harm. We very gradually take bricks down in appointments and then put them back up. A few times we have kicked the wall and I allowed myself to be TOO open and vulnerable which was too much for me. When that happens we have repair work. T and I call it a dance to figure out how many bricks to take down are safe, how many ti put back, etc
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  #13  
Old Sep 04, 2019, 11:44 AM
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I'm scratching my head too.
  #14  
Old Aug 01, 2020, 05:13 AM
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MoxieDoxie MoxieDoxie is offline
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I wrote this back in September 2019. It was clear what was going to happen but I could not see it. A therapist not directly addressing an issue is causing more harm.
__________________
When a child’s emotional needs are not met and a child is repeatedly hurt and abused, this deeply and profoundly affects the child’s development. Wanting those unmet childhood needs in adulthood. Looking for safety, protection, being cherished and loved can often be normal unmet needs in childhood, and the survivor searches for these in other adults. This can be where survivors search for mother and father figures. Transference issues in counseling can occur and this is normal for childhood abuse survivors.
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  #15  
Old Aug 01, 2020, 10:53 AM
*Beth* *Beth* is offline
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I don't understand how we can pick and choose how much of our "wall" or "skin" to remove. For me, it just happens, and I assume it happens unconsciously. I don't think I can control it, unless I consciously withhold information that I need to share. If I do that, what's the point of being in therapy?
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  #16  
Old Aug 01, 2020, 12:20 PM
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Omers Omers is offline
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My T was talking this past session about how the hardest thing for someone with a history like mine is to be able to move flexibly in and out of emotions and the intensity of emotions including attachment. Then he sad something warm and fuzzy and I totally disassociated.
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