[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Rive.

It's not minor, LT. It is bothering you. The lack of consistency does not help re establishing a secure relationship. Kinda waiting for the rug to be pulled under your feet at any time, so how could you get comfortable

I did feel these were micro-abandonments. Not saying 'micro' to minimise their importance but just that what is happening in the now with T seems to be touching a core wound (linked to abandonment?). So it can feel retraumatising (for lack of a better word).

He is really blundering through it all.. and who is left struggling? The client i.e. you.

Oh, I like the term "micro-abandonments." That seems very fitting. It's also a case where one or maybe two in isolation wouldn't be a big deal. But it's like I've just gotten over one thing when another happens. (I mean, I know life can just be like that at times in general.)

And your analogy of waiting for the rug to be pulled out from under me is fitting. I forget whether I included this in the earlier post, but I did say I worried that his wife (and son) would say she felt much better with his being virtual this week, so could he just continue doing that? And because it was a "democracy," would he have to abide by that? And he said that no, he wouldn't be OK with that, how he would make his own decision to keep seeing clients in person in that case. That it's ultimately his decision. So that did make me feel better at least.

"Blundering through it all" is right, though!

[ruh roh]

I hope I'm not too late for this episode of Dr T-gate!

Not picking on you, LT, but it's so much easier for me to do your life than my own, and I see so many similarities I can't help myself.

Take it or leave it, but what I see is--yes--overreaction, but as something to understand, not blame. Take away the names and specific actions and I see you thrown into a tailspin when someone who matters to you puts someone else before you, and when someone doesn't say or do exactly the right thing to make you feel less anxious/ashamed/out of control/fill in the blank. Of course these are all things from your early years. That's how this works. What therapy can do is help you refocus your control internally instead of trying to force it externally on people around you.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you wanted to know what he thinks as he thinks it. On the upside, he's said some kind things too--probably more than bumbly things. He could be helping you identify ways to move out of that intense anxiety and discomfort and back into your own skin where you're in control of your own internal experience regardless of what other nutty people are getting up to, but he doesn't seem to work that way and you are determined to keep at it with him. Some of this reminds me of the joke about the guy with a banana in his ear who can't hear people telling him to take the banana out. He finally yells, "I can't hear you! I have a banana in my ear!"

btw, when you go back to Dr T and tell him that people here don't like him, isn't that because you've only given us a certain take on him that leads us to that conclusion? Are we your proxy for expressing feelings you're afraid to tell him directly because you know it's a pattern of yours to pick everything apart as a way to [fill in the blank-- avoid responsibility/control feelings/reduce anxiety]?


One way to regain your agency is to get the focus back on your feelings and actions you can take. I mean, you've noted that your sessions are about him a lot of the time, as if it's his idea, but isn't that because you put the interrogation lamp on him? I have been known to do this too. And I'm really good at it, so I know the play. You can change that in a flash if you're up for it. I see a therapist who irritates the crap out of me quite a bit, but I just get things back to why I'm there--which has nothing at all to do with her. I would love to blame her, but I kind of have a multi decade history of problems she didn't instigate. When I feel like bringing my irritation of her into my sessions, we work on it thematically--or did. I'm finally winding down and getting out.

We fix things for ourselves when we're ready. Until then, everyone else can still see the banana in our ear.


I'm just guessing at all of this, of course. Take what fits and leave the rest.

Thanks for sharing your struggles with everyone here. That takes guts and shows just how distressed you are. I really hope you find that self security. Pulling for you!

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by zoiecat

...attend DBT classes and that is assuming it is an every week class. Mine was 2 hours every 2 weeks...

Hi zoiecat, how did you find a DBT class?

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

I hope I'm not too late for this episode of Dr T-gate!

Not picking on you, LT, but it's so much easier for me to do your life than my own, and I see so many similarities I can't help myself.

Take it or leave it, but what I see is--yes--overreaction, but as something to understand, not blame. Take away the names and specific actions and I see you thrown into a tailspin when someone who matters to you puts someone else before you, and when someone doesn't say or do exactly the right thing to make you feel less anxious/ashamed/out of control/fill in the blank. Of course these are all things from your early years. That's how this works. What therapy can do is help you refocus your control internally instead of trying to force it externally on people around you.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you wanted to know what he thinks as he thinks it. On the upside, he's said some kind things too--probably more than bumbly things. He could be helping you identify ways to move out of that intense anxiety and discomfort and back into your own skin where you're in control of your own internal experience regardless of what other nutty people are getting up to, but he doesn't seem to work that way and you are determined to keep at it with him. Some of this reminds me of the joke about the guy with a banana in his ear who can't hear people telling him to take the banana out. He finally yells, "I can't hear you! I have a banana in my ear!"

btw, when you go back to Dr T and tell him that people here don't like him, isn't that because you've only given us a certain take on him that leads us to that conclusion? Are we your proxy for expressing feelings you're afraid to tell him directly because you know it's a pattern of yours to pick everything apart as a way to [fill in the blank-- avoid responsibility/control feelings/reduce anxiety]?

One way to regain your agency is to get the focus back on your feelings and actions you can take. I mean, you've noted that your sessions are about him a lot of the time, as if it's his idea, but isn't that because you put the interrogation lamp on him? I have been known to do this too. And I'm really good at it, so I know the play. You can change that in a flash if you're up for it. I see a therapist who irritates the crap out of me quite a bit, but I just get things back to why I'm there--which has nothing at all to do with her. I would love to blame her, but I kind of have a multi decade history of problems she didn't instigate. When I feel like bringing my irritation of her into my sessions, we work on it thematically--or did. I'm finally winding down and getting out.

We fix things for ourselves when we're ready. Until then, everyone else can still see the banana in our ear.

I'm just guessing at all of this, of course. Take what fits and leave the rest.

Thanks for sharing your struggles with everyone here. That takes guts and shows just how distressed you are. I really hope you find that self security. Pulling for you!

I like your post. It's solid.

So you said your therapist irritates the crap out of you quite a bit. How does one distinguish between feeling frequently irritated with their therapist and recognizing a therapist who is not effective?

[zoiecat]

Originally Posted by *Beth*

Hi zoiecat, how did you find a DBT class?

I just searched Google for classes in my area. It was a bit of work as some required me to see their therapist and many had waiting lists. I found one that was taught by a psychiatric nurse who was certified in DBT. She also did supervisory DBT classes for therapists. She was great and I learned so much from her.

"So you said your therapist irritates the crap out of you quite a bit. How does one distinguish between feeling frequently irritated with their therapist and recognizing a therapist who is not effective?"

I also have a T that annoys the crap out of me and he knows he does to an extent. I have to censor my true feelings for the sake of keeping him as my T. The main reason he aggravates me most of the time has to do with his need to keep me moving forward and making progress. His philosophy is that it is not ethical to just let someone come in and gripe about life every session, one must always be making progress. He also works with a lot of BPD clients so his boundaries are pretty solid. When I am having a super tough day, I am allowed to vent as long as I use my feeling words and tell him what I want help with regarding the situation. We always have to be working on something, either DBT, CBT or EMDR. Sometimes it is a huge pain in the rear and his constant questions of where do I feel that in my body, or asking me to sit my my feelings in session when I am having a bad day.

I know he means well and wants the best for me but I also get annoyed too. I did see a different T for a few months when mine had to quit for an unknown length of time due to a sudden illness. I have to admit, I didn't like the other guy and didn't see myself making much progress with him. I had plans to look for someone else when I noticed my T was back online again. So we are back together again. I do get really excited when we have to miss a session or two. It is nice to take a break from the hard work.

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by zoiecat

I just searched Google for classes in my area. It was a bit of work as some required me to see their therapist and many had waiting lists. I found one that was taught by a psychiatric nurse who was certified in DBT. She also did supervisory DBT classes for therapists. She was great and I learned so much from her.

"So you said your therapist irritates the crap out of you quite a bit. How does one distinguish between feeling frequently irritated with their therapist and recognizing a therapist who is not effective?"

I also have a T that annoys the crap out of me and he knows he does to an extent. I have to censor my true feelings for the sake of keeping him as my T. The main reason he aggravates me most of the time has to do with his need to keep me moving forward and making progress. His philosophy is that it is not ethical to just let someone come in and gripe about life every session, one must always be making progress. He also works with a lot of BPD clients so his boundaries are pretty solid. When I am having a super tough day, I am allowed to vent as long as I use my feeling words and tell him what I want help with regarding the situation. We always have to be working on something, either DBT, CBT or EMDR. Sometimes it is a huge pain in the rear and his constant questions of where do I feel that in my body, or asking me to sit my my feelings in session when I am having a bad day.

I know he means well and wants the best for me but I also get annoyed too. I did see a different T for a few months when mine had to quit for an unknown length of time due to a sudden illness. I have to admit, I didn't like the other guy and didn't see myself making much progress with him. I had plans to look for someone else when I noticed my T was back online again. So we are back together again. I do get really excited when we have to miss a session or two. It is nice to take a break from the hard work.

Thank you! I had no idea that there were DBT classes. I'm guessing that if there aren't any in my town, they are online.

Thanks, too, for your input about your therapist. So while your therapist had to stop practice due to illness you didn't fall apart? My t was suddenly out due to illness; it's been almost 4 months. She's rumored to be returning next week, but these months have been extremely difficult for me. I feel her absence like burns on my skin.

I wonder if LT and I experience strong transference with our t's?

[zoiecat]

Originally Posted by *Beth*

Thank you! I had no idea that there were DBT classes. I'm guessing that if there aren't any in my town, they are online.

Thanks, too, for your input about your therapist. So while your therapist had to stop practice due to illness you didn't fall apart? My t was suddenly out due to illness; it's been almost 4 months. She's rumored to be returning next week, but these months have been extremely difficult for me. I feel her absence like burns on my skin.

I wonder if LT and I experience strong transference with our t's?

I wouldn't say I fell apart but I was already only holding on by a thread. I started seeing the new T about one month after my old one got sick. The new T suggested I take a leave of absence from work which helped me a lot. By then my old T was back. I do not have attachment issues; my style is avoidant. I was attached to a few teachers as a kid but that was it. It probably helps that my T is caring but all business. Like I said earlier, he is quite annoying.

[Quietmind 2]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks, QM. This fits with something I was considering earlier, actually.

I was thinking about how maybe it would help if we could work on my expressing anger or even just irritation or annoyance toward him. Being able to express it, then maybe examine it, without him necessarily getting defensive or else lashing out in response. I'm not good at expressing anger (or other negative emotions) toward people, and I feel this could be a place where I could try it out.

But if he's going to be like (to use the recent thing as an example): "Well, of course my family has to come first!" or "I'm not going to risk my marriage so that we can meet in person," that's not going to be helpful to me. If I could express it and we could talk about, say, what it felt like for me to say that, how it came across to him (without his getting defensive).

It's something that could help me in my outside life. I feel like it often comes out wrong when I try to express negative emotions to H, for example. And it definitely did with a former friend (as she ended the friendship over a reaction I had, though tbh, it had been going poorly for a long time).

That's also helpful to know how your T handles SH.

Part of my therapy has also involved learning to express irritation, annoyance, and anger (when appropriate) towards my therapist, as well as taking in her feedback that she feels annoyed when I interrupt her a lot, feels hurt when I unfairly lump her in with particular people.

There's been times where I wasn't being unfair towards her but she didn't understand why I was so upset/angry and we worked through it. I usually needed to cry a lot and express anger (never verbal abuse though), and she'd even encourage it because I found it really difficult to cry or express anger. Then we worked through it.

We do also explore when I do lash out inappropriately at her due to transference (Not saying you do that!) and what was provoked/triggered. I don't lash out at people in general, so for a long time I wasn't aware of the attachment stuff being activated, and the deep anger buried within me and in some of my dissociated identities at the abuse I've suffered.

She knows I know that lashing out inappropriately doesn't help, and I've asked her why she signed up to take this from me, and she told me why, what she felt i can learn.

So it's about learning what's appropriate for the situation and the person. Which isn't easy, definitely.

Not just in therapy but with friends, acquaintances, different professionals etc.

Also I have wanted to hear exact phrases from her, and I sometimes really mishear her due to what's going on with me in my head due to anxiety or dissociation. It can be frustrating for her, and that gets me frustrated at myself but she knows I'm not doing it deliberately. So it's part of our work.

Kinda off topic:

What you said about Dr T... I've that problem he has sometimes! My T says I gotta own my decisions, and not like "my partner won't like it".

That also is a work in progress for me because my family background and specific abuse history made it literally much safer to hide behind my partner with his consent.

But I'm not in that environment anymore, and it's no longer useful.

Sometimes it's also been my partner being legitimately coercive (he has untreated anxiety and can be very rigid) and we later revisit the topic. Conflict tends to shut me down, because I really do get scared. That's also where we work on assertiveness, which also includes telling my partner that while he has a right to give his opinion, it's my decision.

[Quietmind 2]

I do not believe that feelings are fact and just because someone hears it as harsh does not make it harsh.

This is true yeah.

I had someone offline get really angry towards me once, accusing me of attacking them verbally a month after the incident they referred to. I showed the chat log to people I trust who would absolutely call me out if I was wrong. Turns out simply asserting myself in a brief and polite sentence to someone who is really homophobic is like me attacking them.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by *Beth*

Thanks, too, for your input about your therapist. So while your therapist had to stop practice due to illness you didn't fall apart? My t was suddenly out due to illness; it's been almost 4 months. She's rumored to be returning next week, but these months have been extremely difficult for me. I feel her absence like burns on my skin.

I wonder if LT and I experience strong transference with our t's?

I'm so sorry you're still dealing with your T being away, Beth. I would really struggle with that. I hope she's back next week and that things will be OK between the two of you.

And I'd say that we both do experience strong transference, or at least strong attachment, to our T's.

It's difficult with my T at times because he doesn't really seem to sort of buy into the "transference" concept. So I can believe that some sort of reaction to him (especially if it seems bigger than the situation would seem to warrant, like being virtual for a week) is not completely about him, but partly about stuff from my past, like unmet childhood needs, other people who have left me feeling abandoned, etc. Whereas he generally tends to think that the feelings are just about him and the present situation, though he's come around on that some the more I've worked with him. But before that, one time I remember saying something like, "This isn't totally about you" (meaning also stuff from my past), and he said, "I think it is completely about me."

Then, there was the opposite of that with ex-MC, where he thought everything was transference when, no, sometimes I was actually mad at or upset with *him*.

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I'm so sorry you're still dealing with your T being away, Beth. I would really struggle with that. I hope she's back next week and that things will be OK between the two of you.

And I'd say that we both do experience strong transference, or at least strong attachment, to our T's.

It's difficult with my T at times because he doesn't really seem to sort of buy into the "transference" concept. So I can believe that some sort of reaction to him (especially if it seems bigger than the situation would seem to warrant, like being virtual for a week) is not completely about him, but partly about stuff from my past, like unmet childhood needs, other people who have left me feeling abandoned, etc. Whereas he generally tends to think that the feelings are just about him and the present situation, though he's come around on that some the more I've worked with him. But before that, one time I remember saying something like, "This isn't totally about you" (meaning also stuff from my past), and he said, "I think it is completely about me."

Then, there was the opposite of that with ex-MC, where he thought everything was transference when, no, sometimes I was actually mad at or upset with *him*.

Thank you, LT.

Therapy and becoming more mentally stable would be a lot easier if every t agreed upon a treatment plan and how to go about it.

[SalingerEsme]

Walt Whitman

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

L gave me a quote from a poem. The main part she wanted me to focus on is "I am large. And I contain multitudes". L and I have just started talking about my "child parts". She doesn't diagnose it or label it an attachment style. She does agree it's partially maternal transference. The quote was to help comfort me: that we are all human and we are complex. That even my relationship with her is complex. We relate to each other as therapist to client, peer to peer, teacher to student, adult to adult, mother-figure to abandoned-child, etc. We are all multitudes.

I too would be upset if L labeled me an attachment style. Her and I agree: label jars not people. I would feel brushed off and misunderstood. Yes, there's a reason you feel like a child. You can explore that. Or explore why you're having particular transference with him. But to simply re-label it is not helpful imho.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by zoiecat

I just searched Google for classes in my area. It was a bit of work as some required me to see their therapist and many had waiting lists. I found one that was taught by a psychiatric nurse who was certified in DBT. She also did supervisory DBT classes for therapists. She was great and I learned so much from her.

"So you said your therapist irritates the crap out of you quite a bit. How does one distinguish between feeling frequently irritated with their therapist and recognizing a therapist who is not effective?"

I also have a T that annoys the crap out of me and he knows he does to an extent. I have to censor my true feelings for the sake of keeping him as my T. The main reason he aggravates me most of the time has to do with his need to keep me moving forward and making progress. His philosophy is that it is not ethical to just let someone come in and gripe about life every session, one must always be making progress. He also works with a lot of BPD clients so his boundaries are pretty solid. When I am having a super tough day, I am allowed to vent as long as I use my feeling words and tell him what I want help with regarding the situation. We always have to be working on something, either DBT, CBT or EMDR. Sometimes it is a huge pain in the rear and his constant questions of where do I feel that in my body, or asking me to sit my my feelings in session when I am having a bad day.

I know he means well and wants the best for me but I also get annoyed too. I did see a different T for a few months when mine had to quit for an unknown length of time due to a sudden illness. I have to admit, I didn't like the other guy and didn't see myself making much progress with him. I had plans to look for someone else when I noticed my T was back online again. So we are back together again. I do get really excited when we have to miss a session or two. It is nice to take a break from the hard work.

I know this post is from almost 2 months ago, but it's resonating with me now. Dr. T and I had another conflict about a week ago. My D and H got Covid a couple weeks ago, and I had been worried about it affecting our annual summer beach vacation that my D loves (my parents go as well). It felt like Dr. T wasn't particularly empathetic or supportive, even saying things like, "Isn't this the best possible time they could have gotten it?" When I said no, I didn't want D to miss her vacation, he still insisted it was the best possible time.

OK, we didn't end up missing vacation in the end (though H and I wore masks when indoors with each other or my parents the entire time, as he kept testing positive). Anyway, that's not the point. I mentioned to Dr. T shortly before leaving for vacation that I'd felt disconnected from him lately, that I thought it was partly to do with his reaction regarding Covid and also having to do more virtual sessions because of that (plus he had some trips in there and is leaving for another tomorrow).

So I emailed him about that, saying I just wanted to make sure he still cared and wasn't tired of me (yeah, I know, I should have just trusted in that, but I was getting a very cold, distant vibe from him). He replied with a paragraph reassuring me, which was nice enough.

However, then he said he felt like I was having a "victim mentality" about having Covid in our household, that he thought I seemed to be expressing feelings of "unfairness and injustice" (which I don't think I was). How that's a bad mindset for anyone, that he was trying to get me to have a positive mindset about it, etc. And said again how he felt it was actually an ideal time for them to have Covid, etc.

Oh, it also didn't help that earlier in the week, he'd said that with my starting to go to concerts again (mostly outdoor, the only indoor one, masks were required) that he figured it was inevitable I'd get Covid sooner or later. Though this case came from D's camp, we're pretty certain (definitely not from a concert).

Anyway, the "victim mentality" really triggered me. As I don't feel I was acting like a victim in that case. And I also worried he felt that way about other things, like stuff with my D's special needs. When I asked about that, he said I was "overgeneralizing" his comment (we also had more discussion, which I may post about later). But it's all made me wonder again about whether I should stay with him.

Anyway, the thing that echoes what's in your post, is: Am I wondering whether he's the right T for me right now because it's not a good fit? OR is it that I don't want to examine and face difficult truths about myself, so I want to find someone who won't push me in that way? I know that both could be true--that I need to face these truths, but he's not the T to do that with. But it's just something I'm considering. Am I thinking of running because it's become uncomfortable again? Is that really the thing to do here?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

I hope I'm not too late for this episode of Dr T-gate!

Not picking on you, LT, but it's so much easier for me to do your life than my own, and I see so many similarities I can't help myself.

Take it or leave it, but what I see is--yes--overreaction, but as something to understand, not blame. Take away the names and specific actions and I see you thrown into a tailspin when someone who matters to you puts someone else before you, and when someone doesn't say or do exactly the right thing to make you feel less anxious/ashamed/out of control/fill in the blank. Of course these are all things from your early years. That's how this works. What therapy can do is help you refocus your control internally instead of trying to force it externally on people around you.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you wanted to know what he thinks as he thinks it. On the upside, he's said some kind things too--probably more than bumbly things. He could be helping you identify ways to move out of that intense anxiety and discomfort and back into your own skin where you're in control of your own internal experience regardless of what other nutty people are getting up to, but he doesn't seem to work that way and you are determined to keep at it with him. Some of this reminds me of the joke about the guy with a banana in his ear who can't hear people telling him to take the banana out. He finally yells, "I can't hear you! I have a banana in my ear!"

btw, when you go back to Dr T and tell him that people here don't like him, isn't that because you've only given us a certain take on him that leads us to that conclusion? Are we your proxy for expressing feelings you're afraid to tell him directly because you know it's a pattern of yours to pick everything apart as a way to [fill in the blank-- avoid responsibility/control feelings/reduce anxiety]?

One way to regain your agency is to get the focus back on your feelings and actions you can take. I mean, you've noted that your sessions are about him a lot of the time, as if it's his idea, but isn't that because you put the interrogation lamp on him? I have been known to do this too. And I'm really good at it, so I know the play. You can change that in a flash if you're up for it. I see a therapist who irritates the crap out of me quite a bit, but I just get things back to why I'm there--which has nothing at all to do with her. I would love to blame her, but I kind of have a multi decade history of problems she didn't instigate. When I feel like bringing my irritation of her into my sessions, we work on it thematically--or did. I'm finally winding down and getting out.

We fix things for ourselves when we're ready. Until then, everyone else can still see the banana in our ear

I'm just guessing at all of this, of course. Take what fits and leave the rest.

Thanks for sharing your struggles with everyone here. That takes guts and shows just how distressed you are. I really hope you find that self security. Pulling for you!

Realized I never responded to this. You make some good points here that are very relevant to what's going on in my therapy with him right now--is he just trying to get the banana out of my ear, but I don't want to do it because I'm not ready or am resisting for some other reason? That I'm so used to having the banana in there, I don't know how to manage without it? So maybe at times, I'd rather go to some other T who lets me keep it in? (OK, I think I've beaten that metaphor to death now! Banana pudding, anyone?)

Your question about whether I tell him people on here aren't happy with him in place of my telling him myself really made me think, too. Because I even did that again regarding one of my friends in our session a few days ago. I said I knew she was just looking out for me. And he said something like, "I bet she'd prefer if you never talked to me again." Which honestly, in thinking about it, feels a bit like triangulation and reminds me of how my mom would react to my best friend when I was a teen...like, "I bet she's making you hate me." Hm....

Anyway, I suspect it's easier for me to say others are unhappy with him than for me to say I am. He doesn't seem to respond particularly well to criticism to me, so that seems safer. But I have also been critical of him lately, without putting it on someone else, which feels like progress.

I feel like this is my teenage part coming out, pushing back against him as I strive for independence (as he's pushing for my independence, too), but also wanting his care and comfort. And it's hard to deal with those conflicting feelings--I didn't do that too well as a teen, and my mom didn't handle it well either, so it makes sense I still have that to work through in some way. Though Dr. T is likely to see it as a "here and now" thing vs. something from the past I missed out on and am working through via him.