[ElectricManatee]

My therapist and I have had a rough few years. There was a big rupture when she changed some boundaries on me. We have talked about it thoroughly and I've tried to come to terms with the new setup with mixed success. I took a break at one point and I've been seeing another therapist for EMDR for childhood stuff in addition to the original T. Original T and I have had good phases and bad phases since then.

Before the rupture, the relationship with my original T was magical and life-changing. I had only limited success with my depressive symptoms and with understanding my self-hatred until l she and I blew the lid off things. Now I understand that attachment trauma underlies pretty much all of it. Unfortunately, she has become a trigger for me. I have maternal transference issues with her, and they've been pretty negative lately. I don't know that she always handles it as skilfully as I would like, even though she definitely recognizes it, and I don't know how to stop myself from getting triggered by her.

Lately her office doesn't feel safe to me anymore. I'm anxious walking into every session and I'm starting to dread sitting there, which is not at all how I felt before. It used to be a safe haven. Everybody in my life is saying that I've probably hit the end of the road with this T, but I don't want to give up just yet. My EMDR therapist thinks we can work through it, although she sees that I'm running out of energy and patience. Lately I have done a lot of EMDR about therapy sessions with the other T and points when I reacted strongly to something (nothing unethical or wrong, I should add, just some misattunement and some difficulty around me asking for things, usually).

EMDR T is going to be out of the country for two weeks, and I don't want to dive into anything with the other T until she gets back. I was thinking maybe this is a good time to re-establish some feelings of safety and trust with my original T. Does anybody have suggestions about how to do that? I was thinking about suggesting going for a walk or doing a puzzle, although I don't know if she'll go for it. Sometimes we knit together. I'd like to keep the conversations somewhat light or at least not deep. Any thoughts about things I might not have considered to help untangle this situation? I really like and trust this T (when I'm not furious with her). I think she cares deeply about me (and says so), and I think she wants to help, but things have just been a mess.

[LostOnTheTrail]

Hey, EM.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I admitted to R in session this week (after some prodding) that I'm still trying to recover a sense of safety with her, after we spent nearly two years - she pointed that out - working exclusively online.

Based on my experience, I wonder whether you could ask yourself if there's something in particular you would want to hear from your T, to help you feel safe.

I don't know whether you journal, but it might be worth thinking about how a conversation around that topic could go.

A puzzle might be a good idea.

[Lemoncake]

This might not be what you want to hear EM, but I feel from your post you have gone as far as you can with original T.

I would trust how your body is reacting in this situation and not try to force it at all.

If you still want to go the walk idea sounds good, but what about reading/ being read to?

[downandlonely]

I like the idea of a walk or knitting.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by Lemoncake

This might not be what you want to hear EM, but I feel from your post you have gone as far as you can with original T.

I would trust how your body is reacting in this situation and not try to force it at all.

If you still want to go the walk idea sounds good, but what about reading/ being read to?

On the one hand, I totally get it. Sometimes I feel crazy with frustration that I keep paying to feel the way I do when I leave her office. And I think that maybe if we were going to resolve this, it would have happened by now. On the other hand, it seems devastating to my trauma recovery to have to say goodbye to her forever in the same way I had to do with my mom. You would think that the person who explained the story to me wouldn't fall into re-creating it, which is why this whole situation sometimes feels nightmarish.

[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

On the one hand, I totally get it. Sometimes I feel crazy with frustration that I keep paying to feel the way I do when I leave her office. And I think that maybe if we were going to resolve this, it would have happened by now. On the other hand, it seems devastating to my trauma recovery to have to say goodbye to her forever in the same way I had to do with my mom. You would think that the person who explained the story to me wouldn't fall into re-creating it, which is why this whole situation sometimes feels nightmarish.

I understand- it took me 8 months to leave therapy with Rob, when I already knew we weren't working out. but the others just told me that therapy was hurting me more. I stopped going when I lost faith in his ability to help me.

You can just put things on ice and decide later. It doesn't have to be forever now. Nothing takes away the progress you have already made.You are strong and will get through this either way you decide.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I probably should have left ex-T earlier, but I was not ready. I wasn't ready when she terminated with me.

If you want to do fun things you can also do games or questions. Those are the two things that really work for me and L. I like playing connect 4 with L, but we've also played battleship, chutes and ladder, I think chess, and we tried to do a puzzle. For questions, we've done "what's your favorite...", "would you rather...", etc.

[LonesomeTonight]

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. With ex-MC, I tried to repair after the rupture. We sort of bumbled along for about 4 months after, but it never felt the same. The trust was gone. In the session where I said at the end we were terminating, I realized that when I looked in his eyes, I didn't feel anything anymore. When I used to feel caring (maybe love) and this sense of safety. But it was just...gone.

I agree with Lemon that you don't have to decide right now. Would she be open to your taking a break of a set amount of time, then potentially returning? (Or not returning, if you felt you were doing better.) With ex-T, there wasn't a rupture really, but I felt I needed a change. It was easier for me to say I was going to take a break and consult with someone else, then return (at least for a termination session). I never ended up returning, but having that plan made it easier. (Though with Dr. T, I *did* officially terminate a few years ago, then returned 2 weeks later.)

I wouldn't do any of this while EMDR T is away, of course. I think it would be worth trying some of what others suggested here. And see if that helps. If she's (and you're) willing to meet outside, whether on a walk or sitting at a bench or table, that could potentially be helpful. I've met with Dr. T at a table outside a few times--that was due to the pandemic, but the dynamic felt different, meeting there. He called it a "social session," and it did feel more like two friends meeting for coffee than a therapy session. We did discuss some regular therapy topics, but also more relaxed things, like the type of driver we each are, and he was disclosing a lot more. Plus there were some distractions in the environment (I would not recommend the cicadas we had one time though!)

We've also walked for part of a couple sessions with ex-MC (and once with ex-T), and that was helpful both due to being active and also not sitting directly across from them and staring at each other. I've never really done a game, though one time ex-MC, H, and I were tossing a ball back and forth to each other. But a game seems like it could be good. Maybe toss out those ideas to her and see what she'd be open to? If you can't check with her in advance, you could just bring along a couple small options with you, like a deck of cards or Uno or some other small game.

Oh, one last idea is to consider playing a song for her, whether something that sort of captures your feelings about her/the situation, one that you generally associate with her, or just one of your favorites. If it has lyrics, print those out. I did that with Dr. T once, and it ended up being a really meaningful session (even though he's not particularly into music). If she's into music, you could welcome her to share a song, too (whether in that session or a future one).

I hope something is able to make you feel safer and more connected to her.

[Oliviab]

I don't have many/any ideas for rebuilding trust and safety beyond what has been discussed here. Maybe just spending time together, not digging into anything painful? Or is there some sort of "clear and protect" ritual that you could do with her space/the relationship? (I do not hold any religious or supernatural beliefs, but still find rituals like this powerful.). Also, I think she needs to be trustworthy (is she?) in order for you to rebuild trust. Also, does she own her mistakes? Does she attempt to rectify them? Does she allow herself to be vulnerable with you, to be known by you? (These are things I require from my T in order to trust him--you may not need this, but it's worth thinking through what you do need and whether she can provide it).

My heart goes out to you at the thought of you being retraumatized. I have had similar experiences with my T. We nearly terminated twice and it was absolutely devastating, and I would have been very hurt, possibly even harmed (he and I differentiate between pain and damage this way). It would have been a major re-enactment of the original trauma. We go to therapy (at least I did) to have corrective experiences and then to have the same thing that harmed us in childhood happen all over again feels untenable. But I'm wondering if there is a third option other than "rebuilding trust and safety" and "retraumatization"?

I don't know the details of your relationship with your mother, but I'm wondering if there might be a way for you, over time, to terminate with this T in such a way that you get a "corrective experience/different ending"? It might not be the one you wanted or expected (e.g., a "natural" termination when you are sufficiently healed), but it might be empowering in a different way? Like, building enough internal strength and external supports to walk away from a relationship in which our needs are not being met because we know we deserve better can be healing in and of itself, if not the ending we wanted. Not sure if this applies to your situation or not, but wanted to put it out there.

[Rive.]

Why don't you take a break from T for these two weeks EMDR T is away? It might help you 'recalibrate' (process your feelings, see how you stand, what you would need going forward and so on).

[wheeler]

My T has been very distant from me for about 9 months, but she doesn’t see it. Like you I’m not sure why I keep paying for it as it doesn’t appear to ever change. For me, I think I’m afraid of the grief that it would bring to terminate.

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Lately her office doesn't feel safe to me anymore. I'm anxious walking into every session and I'm starting to dread sitting there, which is not at all how I felt before. It used to be a safe haven. Everybody in my life is saying that I've probably hit the end of the road with this T, but I don't want to give up just yet. My EMDR therapist thinks we can work through it, although she sees that I'm running out of energy and patience. Lately I have done a lot of EMDR about therapy sessions with the other T and points when I reacted strongly to something (nothing unethical or wrong, I should add, just some misattunement and some difficulty around me asking for things, usually).

EMDR T is going to be out of the country for two weeks, and I don't want to dive into anything with the other T until she gets back. I was thinking maybe this is a good time to re-establish some feelings of safety and trust with my original T.

Going by what I've seen before, I would say it sounds like a risky idea to go from there with trying to force yourself to seek feelings of safety and trust when your instincts are so totally sending you the completely opposite message.

What I'd do if I were you is analyse and get emotional insight on where your subconscious instincts are coming from about feeling like this, like even the office is no longer safe and makes you feel so anxious.

I mean, I wouldn't want to approach this as some opportunity to work on trauma based on a theoretical decision, I would instead want to fully listen to my instincts, subconscious and more conscious emotional reactions, all that. And take it all into account and try to see what's up.

Very importantly also, if I were you, I would do all that analysis in private, on my own, without really sharing with anyone else. I find that's the safest way to look at these things, just IME.

It may all take a long time to figure out, it can't be rushed.

If you tried to push yourself with ANY of it, IMO you risk getting so overwhelmed that you'd get into a worse state for a long time. In a rather unhelpful fashion. Just my take.

Does anybody have suggestions about how to do that? I was thinking about suggesting going for a walk or doing a puzzle, although I don't know if she'll go for it. Sometimes we knit together. I'd like to keep the conversations somewhat light or at least not deep. Any thoughts about things I might not have considered to help untangle this situation? I really like and trust this T (when I'm not furious with her). I think she cares deeply about me (and says so), and I think she wants to help, but things have just been a mess.

One last comment.... the conditional, "when not furious with her", you can try and examine the anger too in addition to all the above reactions, but again if I were you, I would be prepared for it taking very long. And I would again try and do it all alone. Therapy sometimes gets in the way of self-reflection.

Anyway all in all: My suggestion for these two weeks is just spend the therapy sessions in a light way, without trying to push anything about safety, trust, or even have that goal in mind at all. That's my overall thoughts.

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by Oliviab

I don't have many/any ideas for rebuilding trust and safety beyond what has been discussed here. Maybe just spending time together, not digging into anything painful? Or is there some sort of "clear and protect" ritual that you could do with her space/the relationship? (I do not hold any religious or supernatural beliefs, but still find rituals like this powerful.). Also, I think she needs to be trustworthy (is she?) in order for you to rebuild trust. Also, does she own her mistakes? Does she attempt to rectify them? Does she allow herself to be vulnerable with you, to be known by you? (These are things I require from my T in order to trust him--you may not need this, but it's worth thinking through what you do need and whether she can provide it).

My heart goes out to you at the thought of you being retraumatized. I have had similar experiences with my T. We nearly terminated twice and it was absolutely devastating, and I would have been very hurt, possibly even harmed (he and I differentiate between pain and damage this way). It would have been a major re-enactment of the original trauma. We go to therapy (at least I did) to have corrective experiences and then to have the same thing that harmed us in childhood happen all over again feels untenable. But I'm wondering if there is a third option other than "rebuilding trust and safety" and "retraumatization"?

I don't know the details of your relationship with your mother, but I'm wondering if there might be a way for you, over time, to terminate with this T in such a way that you get a "corrective experience/different ending"? It might not be the one you wanted or expected (e.g., a "natural" termination when you are sufficiently healed), but it might be empowering in a different way? Like, building enough internal strength and external supports to walk away from a relationship in which our needs are not being met because we know we deserve better can be healing in and of itself, if not the ending we wanted. Not sure if this applies to your situation or not, but wanted to put it out there.

That was a very interesting post. I'm thinking emotional neglect was a big thing for me as a kid and I did have that replayed in therapy, maybe in a very different form but yeah. And it was really close to damaging (using your terminology) there, way more than ever in my childhood, because I tried to be so connected and open to her and wanted her to be too to me, so it was doubly the problem compared to childhood, so I had to stop going into it all.

I don't know if I specifically had any kind of paternal transference there, it was on a way more general level for some basic attachment models, or something like that.

Anyway, what I liked the most in your post was the part about the third option. I feel like my giving myself time to process and self-reflect on my own about the experience unhindered by a therapist that I can't get enough mutual attunement with, that was a third way for me too. It may take a while to get to the end of that third road, but it's worth it, where you don't have to go by theoretical ideas from therapy about building safety and trust, but instead you get to figure out yourself and listen to your actual instincts and emotions about it. That kind of thing has meant a lot to me.

I have a question too: where you mention you require your T to be vulnerable with you. So there are therapists that use their own very different framework from what's usually a guideline (about the therapist not disclosing too much, not enmeshing themselves)? So like there are therapists that are willing to make themselves vulnerable like that? I'm just asking because I'd like to hear more on this in general

[Oliviab]

Originally Posted by Etcetera1

Anyway, what I liked the most in your post was the part about the third option. I feel like my giving myself time to process and self-reflect on my own about the experience unhindered by a therapist that I can't get enough mutual attunement with, that was a third way for me too. It may take a while to get to the end of that third road, but it's worth it, where you don't have to go by theoretical ideas from therapy about building safety and trust, but instead you get to figure out yourself and listen to your actual instincts and emotions about it. That kind of thing has meant a lot to me.

I have a question too: where you mention you require your T to be vulnerable with you. So there are therapists that use their own very different framework from what's usually a guideline (about the therapist not disclosing too much, not enmeshing themselves)? So like there are therapists that are willing to make themselves vulnerable like that? I'm just asking because I'd like to hear more on this in general

I love that you are finding your own third way. And yes, what you said about figuring out yourself and listening to your actual instincts and emotions...that is such powerful stuff. It's coming to trust ourselves, in a way, which is even more important that coming to trust our therapists.

As to your question...yes, there are therapists who will allow themselves to be vulnerable (still with boundaries, of course, just in a different place than the more traditional approach). Those with a feminist or multicultural theoretical orientation tend to self-disclose more, allow themselves to be known more, and are more open about their vulnerabilities in order to lessen the power differential (not that it is ever gone entirely). I would not say me and my T are "enmeshed" at all, but he shows up human in the room and I would call our relationship more "real" than I've had with any other therapist. For example, when I ask him how he is doing, he will be honest and tell me. And I know a lot about him, including political beliefs and his thoughts about religion (because in feminist therapy, the belief is that the personal is political and our identities and worldviews always matter).

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by Oliviab

I love that you are finding your own third way. And yes, what you said about figuring out yourself and listening to your actual instincts and emotions...that is such powerful stuff. It's coming to trust ourselves, in a way, which is even more important that coming to trust our therapists.

Thanks, yes I agree that's even more important.

As to your question...yes, there are therapists who will allow themselves to be vulnerable (still with boundaries, of course, just in a different place than the more traditional approach). Those with a feminist or multicultural theoretical orientation tend to self-disclose more, allow themselves to be known more, and are more open about their vulnerabilities in order to lessen the power differential (not that it is ever gone entirely). I would not say me and my T are "enmeshed" at all, but he shows up human in the room and I would call our relationship more "real" than I've had with any other therapist. For example, when I ask him how he is doing, he will be honest and tell me. And I know a lot about him, including political beliefs and his thoughts about religion (because in feminist therapy, the belief is that the personal is political and our identities and worldviews always matter).

Yeah, afaik transparency and authenticity are some of the basic principles in good therapy. That could be seen as a kind of vulnerability, and to decrease that risk about there being a power difference. I know I stopped therapy with someone who wasn't transparent let alone human. She herself talked to me like, when I mentioned that, that she's "more impersonal" and "scientific" when she works as a therapist..... It wasn't about being impersonal or scientific, it was about that transparency and authenticity.