[sunrise]

James Bugental, a humanistic psychologist/existential psychotherapist, wrote this about the therapeutic relationship":

“Long-term therapy of some depth inevitably involves times of warm communion and times of great stress--for both participants. Living through these together has a true bonding effect which is not always recognized by those who teach or practice more objective modes. Nevertheless, therapist and patient often have what can only be called a love relationship, which is by no means simply a product of transference and countertransference. Patient and therapist are two human beings, partners in a difficult, hazardous, and rewarding enterprise; it is unreal to expect otherwise.”

That's really close to how I feel about my relationship with my T. I do love him, as described in that passage. Anyone else feel that describes them?

I have never felt myself in the erotic transference camp, and have not thought of my T as a father/mother figure either. I have never been jealous of my T's wife or of his other clients. In fact, I feel a great degree of closeness to my T's other clients, like we are part of a community together. I just feel so close to my T and I think it is because I have trusted him, and we share so much, just as Bugental said. How could it be otherwise when you have gone through so much together?

Does this resonate with anyone else? Or do others feel their relationships are more transferential? Or something else?

[MissCharlotte]

Hi Sunny,

I feel all of these things for T, and then some. I also don't think that the relationship is an either/or situation.

I think some of what you describe actually is transference. It is through the transference that we are able to work through things. It's natural, and well, therapeutic.

I also don't think it's necessary for erotic transference to be sexual. in fact, it encompasses feelings of love such as those you describe.

[sunrise]

hi sister, thanks for responding.

I like what you said about how it's not an either/or situation. I agree. I think some of what I and my T experience is more than transference/countertransference, as Bugental wrote. It is not based only on past experiences with other people. It is due to the trust and bonding that results from shared experience with my T in the here and now. I really like that. I see transference in my relationships with all people, not just my T. It's not something peculiar to therapy. I view transference as past patterns of behavior in relationships that we cannot help but bring to new relationships. But I don't feel I have much of the type of transference where people transfer a specific past relationship (mother, father, spouse, lover) onto their T. So yes, I have transference in the sense of past patterns of behavior and relating brought into the therapy room, but I also have more--the bonding and love borne of authentic shared experience. I think many of us in close relationships with our T's have that. I just can't attribute it only to transference and really like Bugental's view. It just fits for me. It is nice when we read someone and see ourselves there.

I ordered a book of Bugental's yesterday and am looking forward to getting it. If anyone is interested, here is a nice interview with him:
Bugental Interview

[chaotic13]

Bugental's description sounds nice. It also sounds like your therapeutic relationship is a healthy one that seems to fit your needs. I don't think I have this type of deep relationship with my T. Maybe it would be nice, maybe not.

I don't think I have the transference thing going on either, or if I do I don't realize it yet. I simply see her as a T, not a mother, friend, sister,etc.. I'm OK with her having other clients, I don't think about that much unless I read something here on PC about it. I can however appreciate the position of other who do get upset by this. I'm also OK with her not responding to anything I may send her between sessions. I also think I would handle it OK if I saw her on the street somewhere (this week it might be difficult given where I am at the moment)--but I think I'd be OK-probably just say hi.

Although I'm going through a rough spell, I think up to this point the therapeutic relationship that I have seems to be meeting my needs. I guess I'll find out this week if that's changed and if I can still handle it. At this point I am anxious but still planning on going--I would hope this is a sign that I have a good therapeutic relationship.

Its different than what both you and Bugental have described; but good in its own way.

i tend to lean into the concept that some sort of transference has to happen if there is going to be any deep long term relationship. i just dont think you can achieve deep change without it. It doesn't mean that you have to see T in any of those descriptions, or be bothered by seeing her someplace.. all tranference means is that you transfer or project patterns and issues from elsewhere in your life and history onto T and that relationship. Many of the things you list do result for a lot of people, but none are necessary. i'm not trying to invalidate your therapy process mckell, it is what it is and if it helps you then what do i know? But perhaps trandference for you actually entails a sort of indifference or ambivalence.. it could be a need to maintain distance and control, etc.... i don't know, it would be a reflection of a schema from elsewhere.

i do think it's possible to do a certain amount of CBT without transference.. and that can affect things like positive thinking, patterns of behaviour, etc.. but for deep down change the maladaptive issues have to surface and that is transference.

sunny i really like that passage... so much in fact i am browsing the online bookstores and www.thinkingallowed.com

i've often thought that our society is all wrong.. that communities need to be formed in a more human-friendly way.. i believe that healers and teachers, etc need to be integrated into the heart of that community.. a life long wellness approach. Imagine group and individual therapy processes just being a normal part of development... imagine having a T that has known you for quite a lot of your life. Like community/family. i don't think communes are what i mean, but i was interested in aspects of the Jewish concept.. i don't know how to spell it but it's pronounced Kabutz.

i'm not jealous of other clients.. he doesn't have any. Just me and no one else and he lives in his office and never leaves.

actually, i really am not bothered that he has other clients.. i just don't want to see them. i don't know, i just don't want to think about them or their issues... that is part of my transference issues, being certain i am not good enough, and so i would compare myself - do they look more sane than me?

i cannot make myself say how i feel about my T... but he is so deeply important to me... and after the message i got from him on Friday i feel tentatively ok with thinking he might care about me... this is a tough concept because it isn't what i expected. i thought he couldn't because it's a paid relationship, a job... etc... but this is a different thing.. not a friend, not family, not a romantic interest... this is a very different relationship. i just cannot describe it adequately.

i know this kind of thread bothers some people on a deep level. i am not sure why. Someone asked me recently if i was wanting/having a fling with my T because i said i adored him. That intrigued me... not having a fling, but that it would be seen that way.

[ECHOES]

Thanks sunny. I read something similar today.... on some site where I was reading

I have definitely had the feeling of T being motherly or like a mother. I think with my issues that will always be there to some degree. But I also feel a moving away from that being so dominant to a more mature relationship where trust is beginning to be built and that feels good too.

I am not at all sure about 'love'. What it is, what it feels like. That probably sounds odd to some, but that's how it is for me. Maybe when I learn to hold on to good feelings that will have a chance to happen or grow, or be recognizable.

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
MzJelloFluff said:
Someone asked me recently if i was wanting/having a fling with my T because i said i adored him. That intrigued me... not having a fling, but that it would be seen that way.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">It is hard for me to understand the therapeutic relationship myself at times because it is unlike any other relationship. It is deeply intimate yet a professional fee-for-service arrangement. It's not easy for those of us in therapy to understand, so I can see why people who have never been in therapy would not understand. I tend not to mention my therapy much to anyone who is not familiar with therapy. They wouldn't get it. I remember about 10 years ago a friend of mine began seeing a therapist. He wanted to talk to me all the time about this. I could not understand why he was suddenly so obsessed with this! Yes, I could see it was a good thing in his life, but I was just not getting the intensity of his involvement in the process and with his (female) T. Ha, ha, now I get it!

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
i know this kind of thread bothers some people on a deep level. i am not sure why.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">That is interesting--when I posted I didn't think people would be bothered by this. It seems a common topic here.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sunny i really like that passage... so much in fact i am browsing the online bookstores and www.thinkingallowed.com

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Thanks for the tip. I am browsing there now too. There are lots of great interviews there! I think the host of the show has a great job--interviewing all these fascinating people. I need to do that for my job. I liked the Bugental interview and that quote I posted enough to want to read more from him, so I ordered this book: Intimate Journeys: Stories from Life-Changing Psychotherapy. I'm not sure why I chose that book, as it is not Bugental's most famous or significant work. I guess I just like "stories."

Jello, I liked what you had to say about communities and the Israeli kibbutz. I like the idea of incorporating healing into the heart of the community. This reminds me of more "primitive" societies and the important role the shaman or medicine man played in the community.

[chaotic13]

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sunrise said:
]It is hard for me to understand the therapeutic relationship myself at times because it is unlike any other relationship. It is deeply intimate yet a professional fee-for-service arrangement.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I think this is so true for me too. Especially since I have very little experience with deep and intimate relationships to begin with. Simple superficial relationships with people are confusing enough to develop and an maintain. To potentially develop a more intimate one with a person who I am paying really leaves me confused in many ways. The fear of making a mistake, misunderstanding, misinterpreting, or expecting something that shouldn't be expected makes this relationship very difficult to manage.

[MissCharlotte]

Jello said:

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i'm not jealous of other clients.. he doesn't have any. Just me and no one else and he lives in his office and never leaves.

actually, i really am not bothered that he has other clients.. i just don't want to see them. i don't know, i just don't want to think about them or their issues... that is part of my transference issues, being certain i am not good enough, and so i would compare myself - do they look more sane than me?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

This is so interesting to me because I don't mind that he has other clients. I used to be bothered by the good looking women, but now I really don't care. I see people coming out of T's office and look to see whether they are happy or sad as a way to guage what kind of mood he might be in. Now, THAT is transference.

Here is a quote from Yalom:

"A patient can tolerate the therapist's being unfaithful outside of the house that is the patient's own. Though it is understood that therapist's embrace other relationships, that there is another patient waiting in the wings for the hour to end, there is often a tacit agreement not to address that in therapy. Therapist and patient conspire to agree that theirs is a monogamous relationship. Both therapist and patient secretly hope that exiting and entering patients will not meet one another."

[Perna]

One thing I like to remember is we're paying for someone's time, not for the person themself. You cannot buy other people's selves, their decision to use their skills and personal attributes to help you.

[Mouse_]

Mmm I dont agree fully with that statement Perna, I think we're paying for their skill and ablity to respond to us. If it were just their time, I think they'd be wasting it and we would too?

[Perna]

You can't buy skill. Think of the crummy relationships you've had in your life. What did you get? Only the time they took. A skilled therapist working for the State or an agency could still decide they don't like you and just give their time to fulfill their job requirements and collect a check. You can't force the relationship so if one has a good relationship, it's a "gift" of the person giving it (and the other person, us, giving too, ourselves -- T's won't work with people who refuse to do the work)

yeah mouse, me either.. but the thing about these discussions is that we are all each at different places, with different relationships. Perna's experience with therapy has little to do with mine for example, although i do value the different perspectives. My experience has little to do with mouse's.. and so on. It's all so personal... i don't think it's just about time tho.. personally, i dont think the money would be worth it for them. The boundaries are maintained in part to keep them from being drained.. for the very reason that this is a personal investment.

the change to ever more brief processes and rigid CBT seems to be changing the dynamic and the people who become T's IMO.. the personal investment aspect can be greatly reduced.

sunrise, i completely get what you're saying.. listening to others drove me nuts. i didn't get it. Even read back here and you'll prolly find posts by me which are opposite to how i feel now. That's because the caring is different than i was able to define then. It isn't like a friendship, or family or love interest.. it's just plain different from that. i have been startled by it.. it feels safe, ok and genuine.

i figure that if someone doesn't believe he cares about me, well, they are welcome to their opinion... and that is all it is, their opinion. There simply is no concrete evidence or research or anything to support the claim... it's all personal experience, anecdote, etc. i can believe some stranger on the internet, or i can believe the man who sits with me 2xweek for a year.. hmm, tough choice.

he has been deeply genuine and honest with me, and he has been with me through some very deep emotional stuff.. stuff that has made him feel strong things too... there is a bond. If i couldn't afford to see him anymore then yeah, i know it would have to stop.. but i don't think he'd feel just ok with that or feel nothing. He once said that something i described to him from my past made him feel sick inside... i believe him.

i have to ask myself: why would he lie? He says he cares. He acts like he cares. Everything seems to add up to him caring. Why would he lie? How would that help me get better?

[Mouse_]

I'm not sure I agree Perna, still. BUT, thats ok too.

[chaotic13]

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MzJelloFluff said:
The boundaries are maintained in part to keep them from being drained.. for the very reason that this is a personal investment.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Do you really think T's have a personal investment in each of their patients? I don't know. I'd like to think that is true, but I'm not sure. I think in general most want to see patient's succeed and get better. Maybe even want to accept some credit for helping achieve their goals. I think some patient's may have a special place in the hearts of their T's, but the majority are simply seen as patients.
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>

the caring is different than i was able to define then. It isn't like a friendship, or family or love interest.. it's just plain different from that. i have been startled by it.. it feels safe, ok and genuine.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I agree with this statement. My interaction with my T is very different than anything I've encountered before. I'm startled by it and I'm not sure if the safety and compassion demonstrated is real or just an act to draw me in.
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>

i have to ask myself: why would he lie? He says he cares. He acts like he cares. Everything seems to add up to him caring. Why would he lie? How would that help me get better?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I ask myself these questions a lot lately and often come to the conclusion that there evidence that there is some level of care associated with our interaction. Unfortunately I also think, she is specifically trained to create and maintain the illusion of caring about me. I am by no means suggesting that T do it for malicious reasons--it just how they maneuver past our defenses and into our heads. I also imagine what it would be like finding out after I've been roped in that I was wrong, that she was just pretending to care and be non-judgmental in order to encourage to me talk and reveal myself. These thoughts create doubts.

This thread makes me hurt. I feel far away from my T. I don't know what's happening. I feel our relationship to be as flat as everything else in my life right now. The depression has extended out so far and scooped up and taken away everything in its nasty path. Sort of like a slow moving hurricane that keeps expanding.

I sent that quote to my T. It's perfect while we're dealing with love and connection in our relationship and her soon parting due to retirement.