[sunrise]

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Mouse_ said:
Its the fear of total annaliation of the self and ego that we fear when T goes away. The degree of anger toward what we think is responsible for our security is just how much we do fear this.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I pulled this quote over from another thread so as not to hijack that one. I wonder, is it abnormal that I do not feel this way (angry) when my T goes away? When he has to go away, I might feel, "man, I'll miss him, our sessions are so helpful to me, and we were just getting to some really important stuff, darn, I'll have to wait" but I never take it personally that he is leaving, just that he needs a vacation like everyone else, and I don't get angry at all. I mean, he is a normal guy and needs vacations, just like I do. He doesn't get mad when I take a vacation. His vacation is not a deliberate hurtful action against me.

The reason I ask this is because I see quite a few people in our forum getting angry when their T's go away and it makes me feel like, "hey, should I be feeling that way too?" Because I don't. Does this mean I am less attached to my T than people who feel angry? (Because I do feel really, really attached and bonded to him!) And I sure am glad to see T when he returns. It's wonderful, like a mini joyful reunion. (I definitely do not sit around and sulk and "punish" him for taking some time off.) And even though his absence can be hard for me, I'm OK with missing him, just like I might feel when a really close friend goes away. In a way, missing him makes me feel the strength of our bond--because I wouldn't miss him if we weren't connected--and that makes me feel good.

I read somewhere, in an article or book on therapy, that some therapists (perhaps a certain therapeutic approach?) encourage their clients to feel angry and needy when they go away. My T doesn't do that at all, he just proceeds like it is a regular thing that he might be gone at times. So maybe I have just followed his lead on this?

Or could it be I have just suppressed angry feelings? Wouldn't be the first time. But I have looked deep inside and am just plain not angry when he goes away.

According to what mouse wrote, would it mean that if I don't get angry when T goes away, I don't fear that his absence will cause annihilation of my self? I guess I would agree with that. My existence does not depend on him. I existed before I met him and will continue to exist if he should exit my life. Getting kind of philosophical here....

I don't know. Just musing this morning....

[chaotic13]

I don't get angry when my T goes on vacation either. I found your comment about being different funny. I also thought that was abnormal for a while, like it was part of my "detachment" from others/defensiveness issue that prevented me from feeling upset. I kind of also wondered if I was strange because, I like the fact that my T has other patients.

During vacations, I struggle sometimes when there is an extended break, but I don't really think I get mad at her or feel like she is not going to return. Mostly the struggling was because I verbalize some thoughts, later didn't like what I had said, and desperately wanted to go back and amend it :-) I also had some trouble containing my therapy overflow between sessions so vacations were difficult. Writing and PC seemed to help a lot with that.

I'm not sure what approach my T uses specifically but vacations are treated with very little comment, "I'm not here in 2 weeks so when are your available the following week?"

First, I just want to say Sunny-- this post isn't directed at you... it's a general response.

I get angry when my T goes-- I think you have to look at the intellectual vs. the emotional. Have you ever been abandoned before? Chances are if you have abandonment issues, then you will be angry because of that. That pattern will repeat with others you are close to and it's totally normal to feel anger when they leave. Sometimes i intellectualize what I'm going through with my T in order not to feel. I will say, "Well since I understand why he's going away and he deserves a vacation, then why would I be mad?" Then I realized (with T's help) that I was totally ********ting myself. Yeah, it's one thing to *know* something, but it's a whole other to *feel* it.

Wow, perfect timing on this post, since I just saw my T for the last time this morning until he returns from vacation on 4/14.

I'm not angry that he's leaving, at all. He told me "it's okay to feel angry at me", but I just don't. I do feel sad - I see him twice a week and usually have some sort of e-mail or phone contact as well - so I will really miss him. And I do feel scared of him not coming back. After 5 months of really hard work, I finally am starting to feel like I can trust my attachment to him and our connection, and it just feels bad that right when I started to have those good feelings, he's disappearing.

I told him today that it makes me feel sad that he is SO HUGE in my life and I'm just barely a speck in his life. He told me "you are MORE than a speck". He said he would hold our experience together "here" (patting his heart) while he is gone.

At the end of the appointment, he sat by me on the couch and took both of my hands in his for a minute. And he's going to call and leave me a voice mail to listen to when he's gone. I him.

So, I'll miss him a lot, but I really do hope he has a really fun vacation - he deserves it. And I'll be REALLY happy when he comes back. But I'm not mad.

[gimmeice]

I don't usually get mad when my T is on vacation, I am usually sad and anxiously awaiting her return.

[sunrise]

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pinksoil said:
Have you ever been abandoned before? Chances are if you have abandonment issues, then you will be angry because of that.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Yes, I have a history of being abandoned. Many times in my life. By the ones I love. My T and I work on that in therapy. So I guess I do not fit the pattern you describe.

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it's totally normal to feel anger when they leave.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">That was kind of my point. It seems normal to feel angry, as so many people here express that, but yet I don't feel angry about my T's vacations, so it makes me feel abnormal in comparison.

I have searched deep inside of me, and do not feel angry he goes away. This is despite my having been abandoned many times in my past. It certainly affects me, though, as I do miss him. I guess I just need to accept that the way I feel is different than how some others might respond. Maybe I need to try harder not to feel like I am abnormal, but just "different." I do not feel I am intellectualizing and hiding my anger from myself, as I have listened to my unconscious on this. I have camoflauged my anger from myself on other issues, though, so maybe I have just been incredibly successful on this one? But I think not. I guess I just need to accept we are all unique. Some of us will be angry, some will not, even if we do share deep abandonment in our pasts.

I wonder too if your expectation, pink, that people who have been abandoned would feel anger, is a little of what I meant up above about how I had read that therapists sometimes encourage that reaction in their clients. If that is the expectation that people training to be therapists are taught, then even unconsciously, could it be that they will encourage their clients to react in that way?

[sunrise]

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mckell13 said:
I don't get angry when my T goes on vacation either.

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earthmama said:
I'm not angry that he's leaving, at all.

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gimmeice
I don't usually get mad when my T is on vacation

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Thank you for posting about your lack of anger, mckell, earthmama, and gimmeice. It is helping me feel not so abnormal!
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earthmama said:
He told me "it's okay to feel angry at me", but I just don't.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Maybe this is kind of what that source I read meant when it said that T's can encourage this response in their clients.
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mckell13 said:
I kind of also wondered if I was strange because, I like the fact that my T has other patients.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Yes, me too, Mckell! I love that my T has other clients. I feel part of the community of his clients, both past and present--all the people he has helped.

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mckell13 said:
During vacations, I struggle sometimes when there is an extended break

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earthmama said:
I do feel sad - I see him twice a week...- so I will really miss him.... And I'll be REALLY happy when he comes back.

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gimmeice said:
I am usually sad and anxiously awaiting her return

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
These are all things I have felt. Thank you guys for sharing your experiences. I don't feel so abnormal now!

[Merlin]

I've felt angry that my T/pdoc is not available due to vacation, and I even stopped seeing one T because she had teaching obligations that left me seeing her once per month, but I'm not angry at them. Maybe I don't attach strongly. I appreciate support but, due to childhood abuse, I will never let myself need it.

I too am happy my T has other clients. It means she has a wider base of knowledge, can apply techniques to specific condition and doesn't need to support me.

[Perna]

I think too, there are a lot of people who haven't worked on their anger issues or identified their anger yet in some areas so don't "get" angry. I don't think that is bad or abnormal or anything, just how it is with them at this time. I don't think everyone identifies "anger" the same way.

I think it is a lot like abuse and how long that can take for some people to understand that they have been abused. It just seems "normal" because that's all they've known. If there wasn't any "anger" in the household, if it wasn't "allowed", spoken of or looked at/seen for what it was, it can be hard to identify.

[lauren_helene]

I once told my T I was angry when he went away at Christmas...his response? "That's crazy"

He's on my sh^t list today so I'm not sure I can be helpful.

Intellectually, I think it depends on when you experienced abandonment in your life and how you see your T. For example, I grew up in foster care so was abandoned by original parents at young age and then constantly until I turned 18. I see my T as a parent and react in the transferance as if T were my parent.

This draws the anger out. But most of it is fear....fear of being left alone and not being taken care of.
I read an article that stated that most clients who have an extreme reaction to T vacation are realing feeling a loss of care.

Now, do I go into T and have this intellectual discussion. No, I go in and behave like a 2-year old because I can't put intellect with emotion. Do I want to act like a 2-year old.....not sure. I obviously need to get something from that behavior and T's reaction.

Just my 2 cents....

[Kiya]

Not to T i don't.
I don't really fully understand because feelings are kind of forbidden and some will get eraced by the system.
It is odd that this conversation is happening now - mine just told me last night that she'll be gone the week after next.
My mind went blank and was ringing. I didn't hear the date properly, so i have to verify with her. She's new for me... but we've been "separated" due to schedule conflicts. she knows that with the separation comes SI. The system really hasn't acted in 3 weeks.... well, minorly, but those don't count. tonight the kids in the system were crying about the upcoming vacation because they know things fall apart then and the SI picks up. I tried to find out if that was fear of the SI or anger at the self or something else, but i was shut out and the emotion stopped. So now i am just blank.
T, though knows how hard it is - she saw me through my MDs 3 week vacation out of the country. So she told me in advacne, and is making sure i know "we" are connected. She wants me to continue to email her while she's gone and she hopes to learn how to get email access away from home/office (I have to appreciate the lengths she is going through just for me!!) so she can respond so i know the connection and relationship are right there. I think she also said she may call and check in.

The frunt face was put forward then so we didn't show no emotion -she can't know hao hard it is to us in here. the blnak woen got put out and llookd like it didn't matter. t also told us that the MD was back and we just put the blank one out like "so"? even tho we're glad to know it.

[Mouse_]

Even if one encourages anger to be expressed, thats not the same as there not being any anger there to begin with. T's DO NOT put the feelings in us. Anger is a protecter of fear for me. Does T encourage it? No she sits like she always sits but does at times mention that perhaps there are other feelings apart from "oh I'll be ok" going on within me and led me to finally admit, that I do feel anger. As to whether its "normal" or not depends on whats normal..I am very aware of my range of emotions and very open to working on them...

[Kiya]

i guess i turn the anger in on myself. out of fear... fear of letting someone close to me and now they're gone.... i guess. fear of "i was just starting to give this up" and going back to the "i must take care of myself - this has peen proven again"....

[MissCharlotte]

I agree with Mouse's post on the fear of the annihilation of self.

However, I don't think, Sunny, that fear necessarily equates to anger. I have feared T's vacations but I don't get angry when he goes. I accept it as a normal thing for him to do. Maybe the child self is angry but the adult self knows he needs his break!

He also doesn't encourage me to get angry, but knows that the breaks are difficult for me so he attempts to help me manage the feelings that come up.

I don't think that your reaction is abnormal. Nor do I think that a feeling is indicative of a particular approach.

I think that Mouse's post relates to the fragile attachments (or lack thereof) that some of us had with our mothers that lead us to insecure adult attachments with our therapists (and probably anyone else who gets close).

I also think that the deeper the therapeutic relationship, the more attached you become and the more you will "feel" the pain of the break. Again, this is much like a child feels the pain of her mother's absence.

I think you should count your blessings and enjoy the relative calm. It's a good thing!

[Mouse_]

I:m wondering if the world "anger" brings up images of someone going raving mad and smashing everything up??? Its not that kind of anger, and for me the anger only lasts for a short while in the session when that small part still believes it has the power to control the feelings of fear that are going on inside when the realisation of the "absence" of T hits home...during the actual day to day living of T's absence things are normal, there is no anger, yes there is depression from time to time, perhaps thats where the anger hides out until its safe when T returns...I notice people talk about abandoment happening to them, I'm talking about when abandoment wasn't replaced with someone coming back, when it was permenant when the person did abandon them and never ever returned....thats a whole lot of memory to be rebuilt... but yes I am quite capable of feeling and expressing anger...I am secure enought with T and myself now to be able to do that, so perhaps its not just a negative where one feels so very needy to feel they may cease to exist in real terms when T's away..perhaps its a sign of a healthy relationship and attachment when anger cann be expressed and felt???I think so anyways, and this thread has helped me see that..

My hurt turns to anger and my anger turns to hurt, it's a cycle I guess. I have been getting better at it slowly, but now that T is retiring, has found a house, and is definitely moving, I'm shoving away the anger because I'm afraid if I show an ounce of anger at her leaving I'll lose any shred of hope of staying in contact with her.

[chaotic13]

As I read the posts here one thing I recognize about me is that I don't have a lot of worries of abandonment. Although my childhood home was dysfunctional and my relationship with my parents was not close at all, they were always there. No matter how awful or bad things were at home, at least my home was always there. When I read the post of others who did not have this consistency, I can see profound differences in perceptions. It makes me appreciate what I did have. (((Hugs))) to those of you who were abandoned, I understand that we are looking at the world from different places.

I feel differently at different times. Sometimes I mourn. Like when my Father left. Even though rationally I know he is coming back it doesn't feel that way. And I grieve. Feel... Alone and forgotten.

Othertimes I feel angry. That I'm more invested in him than he is in me. That I spend so much time thinking about him and he can't spend that much time thinking about me.

Othertimes I'm kinda grateful for the break truth be told. Keen to focus on my work.

Othertimes I'm aware that I kind of emotionally withdraw from him so that his absence won't affect me so much.

I think there are a variety of (equally legtimate) responses that different people (or even the same person) can have. Sometimes it can be hard to figure out what you feel... But othertimes it can be hard to figure out what you feel because you think you should be feeling something and you worry you might not be...

I think that how I feel depends a little on the nature of the transference at that particular point in time. And about how stressed I'm feeling (how much support I need).

[(JD)]

Could the anger also entail needing therapy, and the therapist, in first place? That if you were "well" you wouldn't have to be going through "all this?"

[scott88keys]

You know, when I first got out of the psych. hospital, I was very attached to my therapist and I just panicked when he went on vacation. He knew me well enough to give me a month's advance warning and phone numbers of on call substitutes. I just felt so fragile at that point in my life and I needed him to get through my week.

Now, five years later, I'm at a different point. I'm stronger and don't feel like I need my therapist as desperately. If he goes on vaca, I'm very okay with it. . .go and have a great time, see you when you get back.

We all have our own feelings and whatever they are are valid. So if you feel hurt or anger or abandoned--or you're just fine with a therapists absence, there's no need to wonder if you're in denial about something. It all depends on your personal growth and where you are.
my two cents. . .

[sunrise]

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scott88keys said:
We all have our own feelings and whatever they are are valid. It all depends on... where you are.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Thanks, Scott, I like that.

So many insights here. Making me come to some new ones of my own.

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alexK said:
I think that how I feel depends a little on the nature of the transference at that particular point in time. And about how stressed I'm feeling (how much support I need).

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I think that's how it is for me, alex. I do get angry at my T, but not about his vacations, so I think I am just not feeling abandoned by him, despite the abandonment I experienced as a child, teen, and adult, the lack of secure attachment to my mother, etc. What is great about the relationship with T is that he is NOT abandoning me, and that makes me feel so secure and has been very healing. Although we do work on my abandonment issues (e.g. with my mother), I don't think I have a lot of parental transference onto him, so I have been able to accept that he is staunchly there for me. But maybe I do have some "backwards" transference, because I think the healing with T has helped heal some of that abandonment from the past. (I am transferring the T relationship backwards in time onto the unsuccessful mother relationship. Does anyone else do that?) T has also commented to me before that my progress in therapy has been "meteoric". I am not sure why, but I have passed through some typical stages in therapy in a compressed way, taking months instead of years, etc. T says it is because I came to him "ready to heal" combined with a decent degree of the ability to be direct (which has since improved even more). I do recall that early in our therapy, it was more difficult for me when he went away. I felt much more destitute (but not angry) and like "how am I possibly going to last while he is away?" So I have made progress since then, perhaps?

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MissCharlotte said:
I also think that the deeper the therapeutic relationship, the more attached you become and the more you will "feel" the pain of the break.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I don't agree that people with stronger and deeper attachments necessarily feel more (fear, anger, pain) when their T's go away. I think my attachment to T is as strong as can be--I have never been so close to anyone or trusted anyone like this--but maybe I have just become able to internalize him so he isn't really gone when he goes away, if that makes sense. I miss him keenly when is gone and I am so joyful when he returns (I love the first sessions back when he returns, when that joy is strongest). But I don't get angry or scared when he is away. (Although sometimes I worry his plane will crash.)

Mouse, although your T does not encourage the anger, some T's may. The articles I have read do not say that the T's put the feelings into their clients, just that they encourage. (The authors were therapists.) Sometimes people need encouragement to be able to express, so it can be a good thing. But this author felt that sometimes some T's might do a little too much encouraging when the topic was therapist vacations (kind of an ego thing--T: "I want to be needed so much by my clients when I go away"). I am not saying most therapists are like this, but it was interesting to read these ideas from an experienced therapist's point of view.

I guess it is hard... Because a therapist could encourage anger or sadness or something for their own ego needs... But then similarly a therapist could foster independence and aloofness for their own ego needs... So... Kind of hard to say.

I wouldn't like to say whether one is 'further along' or more advanced in therapy if one responded with x rather than y to a therapist having some time off. I'd imagine... Ones response could be different at different times and that different responses could signify different things for different people. Sometimes moving from x to y can constitute an advance for a person and sometimes moving from y to x can constitute an advance for the same person even.

I think... We are all ok...

[Mouse_]

Amen Alex!!!!

[Kiya]

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stormyangels said:
My hurt turns to anger and my anger turns to hurt, it's a cycle I guess. I have been getting better at it slowly, but now that T is retiring, has found a house, and is definitely moving, I'm shoving away the anger because I'm afraid if I show an ounce of anger at her leaving I'll lose any shred of hope of staying in contact with her.

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=( that's just all so sad!