.

well... after a half hour of 'how was your week' my therapist said something about how he feels that i do a lot in order to try and pre-empt him being critical of me. i said that i think that sometimes he has this little speel on trying to qualify what he says and really it is unnecessary because i know that he doesn't mean what he says to be critical... but how when i'm sensitive about something i probably do try and do this, yes.

and i talked to him a bit about R. my first therapist. and about how she was mostly focused in on categorizing / classifying my thoughts as this or that variety of distortion and how if only i worked to change that (she thought) then my life would be much better. and about how it was hard for me to have treatment targets because i'd read the books and i understood that certain symptoms were considered 'legitimate' treatment targets with a particular course of education that was reccommended for them. only that... i had read the books too, and i didn't think that that was what was needed.

but that i went to therapy in hope... it was my only hope that things would improve...

and he said that 'at the risk of stating the obvious - i am not your mother'. and i said that i didn't think about my mother a great deal. didn't really think about my attachment to her. that i mostly thought about my father. but i guess that something must have happened with my mother in order for me to have turned to him.

and i said about how i didn't think that either my mother or my father saw me really (it was just that my father didn't actively hurt me).

and he talked a bit about winnicot and the notion that mother organizes the infants experiences... so i can read about that, i guess.

and i said that neither my mother nor my father saw me really... but that after that people did... and that no good came of that. and he said we should talk about that next time. but this time... our time was up.

but we did talk a bit about how scary it is for people to see you. and i said that therapy was scary for me... that i had trouble with past therapists because they categorized and classified but never really saw me as a person. but that people seeing me as a person is problematic too. scary. scary for me. and about how the only people who did see me as a person... hurt me. so much. and i'm scared of that. i am. scared.

so... kinda intense, i guess. 3 months... then i'm off...

I don't know what I think about the lowering expectations thing. I guess it makes sense. I'm not quite sure what to make of it, though. If I email my therapist and he doesn't email me back sometimes (not always but sometimes) I feel plunged into the depths of despair and abandonment. Do I expect him to email me? Not really... It is just that he has so much power over my feelings. If he emails me I feel elated. If he doesn't then I plunge. I'm not sure how to alter that affect on me without... Withdrawing my caring.

Just because I think that someone isn't worthy of my caring doesn't mean that I think they are all bad or that they don't deserve the caring of others. I just mean that I wish I didn't care about them so much (that it is inappropriately placed, basically). Not that I wish I didn't respect them as worthwhile human beings. Just that I wish I didn't care about them so much. So they didn't have such power to hurt me.

I don't know how to lower expectations without going numb and emotionally withdrawing. Is that what you mean?

> In truth though (and don't tell him this) I'd probably drop the hate eventually. Not for him but because it would be too much pain for me to hold.

You might be surprised... I was surprised with Bob... It has been a couple years now but still... The hate gets just as intense as it always was. It hasn't really let up. Maybe it will in a couple more? I don't know...

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kim_johnson said:
and i said that neither my mother nor my father saw me really... but that after that people did... and that no good came of that. and he said we should talk about that next time. but this time... our time was up.

but we did talk a bit about how scary it is for people to see you. and i said that therapy was scary for me... that i had trouble with past therapists because they categorized and classified but never really saw me as a person. but that people seeing me as a person is problematic too. scary. scary for me. and about how the only people who did see me as a person... hurt me. so much. and i'm scared of that. i am. scared.

so... kinda intense, i guess. 3 months... then i'm off...

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It does occur to me to wonder if it's possible that it feels safer to invest in and care about people who have built in limitations. People who have a prescribed role, or who are geographically distant, or who for some reason you can have control over how much of you they can see. You do let them see some of you, but in a way you don't find too scary. But then when the roles or the other limitations kick in, they hurt you. Which reinforces the idea that letting people see you doesn't work out.

I've been working on this idea about myself. That I crave intimacy, but then I arrange my relationships in such a way that intimacy is limited. That somehow that's all I can tolerate because it helps me feel safe. But that it leaves me craving intimacy.

I don't know if you could have the same push/pull dynamic going on. Maybe it's just something that's on my mind because of what I'm thinking about myself.

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kim_johnson said:
I don't know how to lower expectations without going numb and emotionally withdrawing. Is that what you mean?

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No, not at all. Let me try explaining it, but remember this is something I just am trying to sort out in my own mind, and I tend to use words idiosynchratically. So this might not make any sense at all.

I think it's a matter of thinking in terms of "and". Not "but". "And". It's got to do with embracing both sides of the conflicting reality of many situations. Something like "My therapist is wonderful and he really does care about me as a person *and* he often forgets major things I tell him within just a few days." Not "but" he forgets. "And" he forgets. I'm not tainting or reducing my caring for him and respect for him or his caring for me with a "but". I'm acknowledging a separate reality with an "and".

So it may mean embracing (not just saying, but truly embracing) "My therapist cares very much about me *and* he doesn't always email me in a timely way. I love how I can feel his genuine caring *and* it really hurts when he doesn't return my emails promptly. He really cares about me *and* he has a life outside therapy with his life and family."

Like I said, I'm still working on this concept for myself. And I have definitely not gotten it to the point where I can apply it more often than not. Or even a substantial minority of the time. But when I can embrace the opposing truths, the dialectic as Linehan calls it, right?, I feel this enormous sense of peace and that feeling you get inside when you know something is right.

I definitely understand wishing that I hadn't given people the power to hurt me by caring about them. Absolutely definitely. I wish it all the time with my therapist. I usually reject the idea that it is better to have the joy of loving and the pain of loving than to have neither. Except with dogs of course. Who only hurt you by having a shorter lifespan.

But I really don't think I could carry intense anger that long, or hate. It really does hurt too much. It would slide into less intense variants, not because I'm wonderfully forgiving, or even because I don't care enough. It would be purely self protective. Hate and anger cause so much pain and pressure inside me. I just can't take it.

hey. yeah, i think i get you. it is hard, though... examples help. loads of examples. i've encountered some good ones over the years, but i have an immense difficulty remembering them.

i remember this statement that came from somewhere: 'people have a preference for single mindedness over completeness'. the thought is that when you get contradictory / conflicting cues from your visual system (e.g., in binocular rivalry setups) people report rapidly shifting percepts rather than experiencing an integrated whole. we see the duck, then the rabbit, then the duck, then the rabbit. one can't really see the duck rabbit, though, because of our preference for singlemindedness over completeness.

sigh. maybe that is what makes dialectics so hard? fairly easy (fairly natural) to swing from one pole to the other pole to the one pole to the other pole. figuring out a synthesis can be much harder, though... so hard... superstring theory isn't progressing so well either. sigh.

i do hear what you are saying though, i think.

bobo... there is something weird going on there. it does take considerable energy to hate him so. it does hurt me so much to hate him so. and yet... i continue to hate. maybe i bundled up all the hate in my life and threw it his way 'cause he is about the safest person in my life for me to hate? he knows i'm not going to physically hurt him or attempt to sue him or whatever... that it isn't all hate all the way down. i don't know. don't know what is going on there. can't figure out appropriate assertiveness, maybe. it is NOT okay how he hurts people. it is unacceptable. but... there is nothing to be done and there it is. i wonder sometimes if hating him scares him away. i hope so. because given the way he acts... i really do have trouble seeing how things are better off for having him around. horrible huh. i wonder if he has risen to meet the way i represent him as i rose to meet the way he represented me? maybe....

I don't know why my therapist is so obsessed with my mother and with his not being my mother. I don't hardly think of my mother (or of him being like my mother) at all. father... I think about him more with respect to my father, I think. But no, he seems obsessed with mother. sigh.

and so the theory goes that initially infants experience a stream of different sensations and emotions and so on... and the mother plays a 'holding function' in helping the infant integrate those experiences into something like an integrated whole. and in the beginning the infant and the mother are merged. and then the mother becomes less preoccupied with the infant and there is a delay in gratification and thus the infant comes to experience mother as separate. and eventually... as a distinct entity with needs and desires of its own.

only... i don't remember feeling attachment to my mother. only to my father. and my therapist thinks that something must have happened with my mother in order for me to have turned away from (rejected) her and turned to my father for my attachment. only... i don't remember any of that. i don't remember any of that at all.

i can't really be in the moment with my therapist as a person. its too scary. i can't look at him even. it feels too intimate. us being in the same room together - the only two people in the room. talking about personal and intimate stuff. his sitting just across from me. it feels too intimate. and i need to not look at him in order to keep some kind of boundary and seperateness. it doesn't feel safe...

my father... always seemed so distant. and kind of distracted from me. it was like he never really saw me. and i always longed to be closer to him.

my mother... i guess i always felt invaded by her. like she was overstimulating me and i just needed her to back off from me. to get away from me. to leave me alone. so i could calm down or something. i had an aversion to her.

maybe i am a bit averse to my therapist. it is scary when he leans forward and listens so intently. when he does that i need to not look at him. i feel like i want to curl up into a little ball and disappear through the floor. i feel shame.

whereas if he was distant... i'm sure i'd long to be closer...

contrary, huh.

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kim_johnson said:
and he said that 'at the risk of stating the obvious - i am not your mother'. and i said that i didn't think about my mother a great deal. didn't really think about my attachment to her. that i mostly thought about my father. but i guess that something must have happened with my mother in order for me to have turned to him.

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I don't know why my therapist is so obsessed with my mother and with his not being my mother. I don't hardly think of my mother (or of him being like my mother) at all. father... I think about him more with respect to my father, I think. But no, he seems obsessed with mother. sigh.

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I think sometimes therapists can be overeager in offering their interpretations to the client. My own preference for therapy is that through exploring the past and present, the client will make her own interpretations. I think it has more meaning than if the therapist makes them. Of course, occasional interpretations from T are helpful, but this interpretation that T is not your mother seems unwanted by you, and it seems like you don't think it fits. Is that right, kim?

My T always says that sometimes he is not going to get things right, and if he says something that is not true, to just tell him. That way he learns more what is going on with me and can come to an understanding that is closer to the truth. And that helps him "get me" and help me better.

Could you tell your T that the T = mother interpretation does not fit? Or do you think it actually might?

I always think it should be the client who brings up what topics to discuss (probably because that is my T's style, and we all know he is perfect, lol). Is exploring your relationship with your mother something you want to work on? Does your T know the answer to that question?

((((Kim))))),
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If I email my therapist and he doesn't email me back sometimes (not always but sometimes) I feel plunged into the depths of despair and abandonment. Do I expect him to email me? Not really.

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I know the feeling. It sounds like intellectually you know that you should not hold your T to these expectations but your feelings protest. If you're like me, my feelings about this are so intense that they drown out any reasonable thought. The attachment feeling is instinctual and very, very strong.

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It is just that he has so much power over my feelings.

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Again, me too. I think the goal here is for his power over you to become less and less. I've made a few strides in this direction, so it is possible. I'm nowhere near the end, though.

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Just that I wish I didn't care about them so much. So they didn't have such power to hurt me.

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That absolutely makes sense, Kim. I told my T this exact same quote!

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I don't know how to lower expectations

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In my opinion, your presenting behavior is to have high expectations for T. However, this behavior is directly related to the attachment issue. So, no wonder you have no idea how to lower expectations! I guess your T has to work on the attachment issues with you (however that is done?). With me, it's taken a lot of time and hard work (pain) to make progress in this area.

I'm in the same boat as you as many of us here are. If you need help, feel free to PM me. We all might as well go through this agony together!

Hey Sunrise. I think... To start with, I wondered why my therapist was so obsessed with my Mother. I kept thinking 'my relationship with my mother wasn't really an issue that impacts on us - my relationship with my father, however'...

And he kept on about my mother... And then I started to see that yeah, I guess that what was so hard about my relationship with my father was that it wasn't really buffered by my having a good relationship with my mother. So... My fathers leaving only had the significant impact on me that it did because I didn't have a good relationship with my mother to buffer that.

But then... My therapist told me about what Winnicott had to say about the role of mother. And... It made sense. I know my father never really had a lot to do with me so it wasn't that i attached to him because he spent the most time with me or anything like that. He said... That I rejected my mother. And... He is right. I did. And so something significant must have happened for me to have rejected my mother and attached so much to my father. Because... She did spend the most time for me. She fed me and hung out for me and came to me when I cried. So... What happened between us for me to have turned to my father?

And... It never really struck me before that it is actually rather odd that I attached to my father, so. And that I never really remember feeling attached to her. So... I guess I can take his point that something must have been off between us... And that must have had more of an impact than I had realized... I guess... Now that he has mentioned it... I guess I agree. I'm just as surprised is all. My mother wasn't a significant force in my life. She was not. But really... Who am I fooling?

And so we had our conversation about how he thinks that I get really defensive sometimes - Like I'm expecting him to be criticizing me... And then he said about my rejecting her. And I was all ready to get defensive... Then I thought... He actually has a point. I did reject her. I just wanted her to get the hell away from me. Because... She wasn't soothing. She could only integrate my experiences in a way that was painful to me...

Hey... It certainly does seem to be the case that rational knowledge can be one thing but actual feelings quite another... I wonder if there is a way to lower expectations (lower attachment maybe) in a way that doesn't involve withdrawing via defensiveness and / or numbness... I don't know. I don't think I'll really get the chance to work through this because I'm off soon...