Positive Reinforcement...

Do you think that part of the reason that people (myself included) who are depressed, but don't really know why, are simply being socially reinforced (i.e., maintaining their depression) because of external factors such as therapy, and attention from dr's and/or others?

Now, I'm not saying that we consciously do this to get attention, because i'm sure most of you would say that you don't ENJOY being depressed... but I'm talking about it being on a more covert level.

I know that inbetween my sessions I often have things happen that I really want to talk about with my T. But if, for example, I didn't have a T ... do you think that those urges to tell someone would go away? And if that is the case, do you think that the severity of my depression would be lifted because I wouldn't be unconsciously reinforcing the depressed feelings/thoughts?

I'm just wondering because, any behaviour that is maintained has to be reinforced by something, otherwise there would be no gain in having this behaviour. And while depression isn't technically a "behaviour" I think it falls under these same principles...

Any thoughts?

Hi Jacq,

I understand where you are going with this but depression is not just a behavioral illness. It is biochemical, as well as situational. In fact, I think quite the opposite is true. I think the depression would get worse, and "leak out" in other areas of your life if you didn't have a T to share i with. I know for me, if I didn't have T I would be more lonely, more depressed and less functional.

Do you feel like you aren't making the progress you would like?

Take care.

Well the thing is, I've been in therapy for aprx 4 years now, and I've done pretty much everything... from CBT, to DBT, schematherapy, EVERYTHING. I guess I'm just looking for other explanations of "whats wrong with me" - other then a biological level - I'm on meds to try and take care of that.

And I agree with you that talking to my T helps me, but i guess thats where I was going with this. What is it that I get out of talking to my T? Is it not a form of positive reinforcement? Or is it really what is holding me together so I don't "leak out" ?

The other day my T asked me what I wanted to get out of coming to see her. I thought this was kind of a bizarre question because I've been depressed for what seems like forever... but it really made me think. Anyways, we couldn't come up with any explanation other then it helps me to have her to talk to. Maybe I'm just not satisfied with that conclusion...

Most people know why they are depressed, even if illogical...

Another thing to think about is that people are not controlled by others.
I do believe in self-reinforcement, and a lot of times it takes a skilled professional to help get a person out of the self-reinforcing cognitive distortions that depression brings.

A lot of people who are depressed do not get any positive attention. Many of them won't even see a doctor or therapist, and instead turn to drugs and alcohol... or just plod on being depressed until they implode.

Just my random thoughts for the day.

hmmm well I'm depressed, but I don't know why...

And you are right in that people are not *controlled* by others, but we do live in a social world, and other people certainly do have a pretty significant influence on each other.

As for the people who don't receive positive attention, they could still be positively reinforced for their behaviour. Positive reinforcement is the addition of a stimulus in an environment that strengthens a given behaviour. It is possible for the addition of negative attention (the positive reinforcer) to generate some sort of desired consequence for the individual. Negative attention is still attention, and if negative attention is the only way an individual is able to get attention at all, that that would be reinforcing - even if its not typically a desired response.

(((((((((( jacq ))))))))))

Being in therapy and having done everything. I'm not sure anyone can do everything because your T will have a particular orientation.

I think if you knew everything you would know why you were depressed.

I think you can say that you have learnt a lot and ready to move on to the next stage. Working on finding out why you are depressed can be very painful but ultimately empowering.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I knew everything, because I certainly don't! I just meant I'm not sure where to go since i've already tried a lot of different approaches...

has your T ever told u why are you depressed or made any other indication? I'v heard that there are some people that don't know why they are depressed; feeling a general overwhelming bad feeling...

Maybe, it's something in your past, even though small, that affected you and it just triggered one day and...? Rap

This is an interesting question. I had one similar, about how maybe we stay crazy sometimes so that we can be absolved of responsibility in our lives? But on the reinforcement issue, it would seem to me that part of it might go like this. A lot of people with difficulties don't necessarily have a huge support network, and most troubles with mental illness are not those that can be shared with tons and tons of people. For those who aren't ill, it's not likely they'll greet disclosures of depression with the same level of empathy as a therapist would. When our feelings get bad, or just a little wobbly, there is really one place to take them where the person listening does not have any type of agenda with us-- the therapist. So any time we feel depressed or feelings go up and down, we think of that person that would be of most help and want to tell them.

That being said, I agree that without T, especially when depression is high, those feelings would leak out-- not dissipate. But this is a really good inquiry and one that deserves conversation with T. Part of it is asking how independent you are, and how, when or if, you might be ready to be on your own, and another part is the question "Will I always have this condition and be this needy." It's very deep thoughts and I thank you for sharing them.

Best,
KKins

(((Jacq)) i dont know how much of this is going to be psychologically verifiable but what i hear you saying is that you feel the deep emptiness that is frequently described in many of the forums... it sounds to me like you are searching for a deeper meaning?

While I guess there is a general trend of me trying to find out just *why* I've been feeling this way, I'm more trying to see if anyone else finds that the act of seeing a therapist is in and of itself, is reinforcing whatever behaviour initially brought you to see them.

I really appreciate everyone's comments and thoughts on this subject, thanks guys

No. I think it is natural and healthy to want to be close to people and to want to share with them, both good and bad things in one's life. My first T, who was a mild CBT, always urged me to build up my outside support network--friends, family, etc.--so that I had other people in my life besides her. "I can't do it all," she said. Do you have others in your life with whom you are close and can share things? I think when we are depressed, we often isolate ourselves, and then this feeds on itself, because we become lonely.

I don't feel that seeing a T is reinforcing for depression in my case, as I am not depressed anymore, and I was when I first started therapy. If seeing a therapist was reinforcing for depression, I guess I would have remained depressed. My therapist doesn't reward me for being depressed or punish me either, so he/she was not a positive or negative reinforcer. Also, seeing my T does not end with not being depressed anymore, so it's not like there is a punishment (not being able to see T anymore) if I became un-depressed.

I think, though, that there is positive reinforcement to seeing a T if the T is helpful/empathetic/warm/caring etc. Who wouldn't want that in their life? But I don't think it reinforces depression, it reinforces seeing the T, so you don't want to stop because you get a lot of benefit. If my T were mean or angry all the time, it would be like aversive therapy, and I would quit seeing him.

ok, im slow sometimes Jacq... i see better what you meant now and the only thing i would add is that for me, seeing a T did make me spend more time thinking about my own little area and in some ways i did begin to feel that i was surrounding myself in my own echoes and the world of therapeutic behaviors.. i felt disconnected from a majority of my society because the majority of society is not in therapy.. i needed a meeting of both worlds, 'mine' and 'theirs' .. becoming a community member is helping me to better define my own role and place... i dont know if this helps? thanks for letting me reply

I have had similar thoughts. Sometimes now that I am seeing a T I am more aware or focused on my feelings especially the negative ones. I sometimes wonder if I quit seeing her would I quit focusing on those feelings and just get on with my life. I believe I brought this up to her in around about way saying that sometimes I feel I really don't need therapy I am just a whiny person feeling sorry for myself and that I've gone this long without therapy so do I really need it and my T said that I do need it and that I am just not allowing myself to take care of me and I am in therapy to make my life better. Not to beat myself up so much. So I look at it as a step to becoming healthier and taking care of me. Which is so hard! I do believe that therapy does help especially my problem with stuffing my feelings and what people say and do to me positive and negative. I realized that even the positive messages from others were being stuffed with the negative becasue I thought (think) I don't deserve them.

Thanks sunrise, I appreciate your feedback.

Maybe this is where I'm getting a little confused. There is certainly positive reinforcement of my T in this respect... but I suppose that it is a good thing.

Maybe I'm just reading too much into things, and mistaking the positive reinforcer of seeing her as being more substantial then my need to see her for the depression.

Thanks!

I certainly feel this way too Nowhere, thank you for sharing that.. in some way it sort of rationalizes that I'm not just making this whole thing up!

It most definitely is hard! I'm glad you're not beating yourself up so much.
Thanks for sharing

Jacq

jacq, I struggle with this too. I see my T for help with my problems, but I also see him because I just plain like seeing him--I benefit from his warmth/empathy, etc. Lately I have been feeling like my problems have diminished a lot since we first began therapy. I have come a long way, with his help, and gotten better at solving my own difficulties in a lot of ways, like I have learned to feel my feelings instead of stuffing them inside. So even though I need his help less, I don't want to stop seeing him, because I like being with him. I worry that this last reason is not enough reason to see him, that I should have more problems in order to justify my visits, that I should step aside for people who need his help more. It's a quandary.

just my $0.02, no. I think that being the social creatures that we are, we need sometimes to share our load. Sometimes an outside pair of eyes, whether a sibling, or friend, or T, can give us a new perspective and help us get to a new place.
or, sometimes, we just need to know that we are not alone. I think it's built into us as human beings.

remember, back in school years, when you had a homework problem that just wouldn't work out? and you found that in going over it out loud with someone else you;d suddenly hear yourself saying the wrong step? It happened to me more than once.

"...we do not speak of our past in therapy so that T can understand what happened; we speak in therapy so that we may hear ourselves speaking the truth about our own lives..."

I think people who haven't done their own recovery work may enable "you", but no if you have the right T then they will not enable you and help you work through your depression, well this is my experience...infact my post on my thread "I was late" shows that one can begin to live with hope..at the end of the day its only US that can do the work and if we want to sit in our mess then we will, but if we wish to fight and win then we will....imho

I have this thought a lot. I have spent my whole life having things happen and just either accepting or dealing with them and the moving on without having the urge to talk or dwell about it. Now having experienced therapy... I want to talk about stuff with my T; sometime even feel compelled to. I've often wondered....was this a good want/need to develop? After I stop going will this urge go away or will I just transfer it to others people? Have I developed a craving for something that isn't likely to be met so easily by someone else? Part of me is hoping I will just adapt like I've always done when people come and go in my life. Then again another part of me is hoping that I will feel different this time. That my urge to make close connections just wont go away.

I think of this often as well. I told my T that I am starting to feel and that I don't like it, it makes me feel like a wimp because much of this stuff never consciously bothered me before. I could go and go without really feeling, thats the way I coped and it worked for me. Yet, I realize when it comes to relationships, I am lacking and that was something I knew I needed to work on, this is when all the other stuff came into play (CSA ect). I don't like dealing with it because of the way it makes me feel.

She keeps telling me its a good thing and in time it will get better. That I will learn to trust people in going through this safe relationship with her, I still find that hard to believe but I'm not on the other side of it yet, so I don't know. I fear all of this will only make me worse off. In a sense there are times where I feel like I am not in control the way I use to be and that worries me. Ugh... I hate the unknown

hangingon

(((((((((chaotic))))))))))))
thanks for sharing

I think it is. To not be SO self-contained, and to be more comfortable, and even interested in, sharing your internal and emotional world with others. I deal with the same. And when everything is going well (i.e. when I feel like I can trust), then it actually does feel really good to share and be supported. Which leads to your excellent next question...

I worry about this. It is hard for me to find people to connect with on a deep level, and yet that deep emotional connection is what I crave. Maybe that desire was always there, and when it wasn't met, I just learned to move on and not bother. And then it gets all stirred up again (for example, in therapy), and it comes back strongly, and it will be hard to leave that behind, and try to find it with someone else. I think ideally, if you realize that is what you crave, your T will encourage you to seek it out with others in real life, while you're still in therapy, so you have that support along the way. I think I need to work on that more myself -- I spend too much time thinking about the therapy relationship, and not enough energy on developing others.

But you're right, it's hard to imagine finding one in the real world that could replace it in the same way (the intimacy, the trust, etc.), at least at this point in my life. But...therapy relationships have their limits too...there could be something nice about finding a real world person that you really wanted to connect with, where there weren't so many professional boundaries...of course, then there are social boundaries in RL that can get in the way too (e.g. is it fair to your romantic partner to have deep emotional connections with other people?). I don't know. Good question though.