Body size and shape matters?!

No, because women are, on average, shorter than men. Therefore, more women will be married to men who are taller than them.

Still, there is more to it - I agree with MOJO, it is not just by happenstance. My mother was slightly taller than my father, and it bothered her. She talked about it a lot. She could not wear high heels. In the late 60s-early 70s, women wore updos that made them look taller - she had a problem with that too, because wearing hair in a way that made her look even taller exacerbated the height difference between her and her husband. Objectively, the difference was small - she was 173 cm and he was probably 171-172 cm, but add heels and an updo, and she was substantially taller than her husband, and did not like it. It is reasonable to assume that many women just do not marry shorter husbands because they want to wear heels .

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/28/he...ight.html?_r=0

This is a good article that does not trivialize the issue.

I'm just going to go on the fact that:
1) in this thread you (or maybe someone else) has talked about pecking order in male groups and how short men are usually on the bottom or near the bottom of this pecking order.
2) you feel excluded because you are the shortest out of the men around.
3) guys like to tease each other and pick on those who are "lower in the pecking order"

Your conclusion about not being included because you are short doesn't match up. If it was true, then that group of men would be trying to include you because they would view you as suitable short and thus at the bottom of their pecking order. You would be an easy-in because no one wants to be the most-picked-on.

That makes me think that their reasons to not including you has NOTHING to do with your height, and it would have to do with something else.

Do they know what things you are interested in? Have you ever talked with them about things that are a common interest? If you haven't... then they probably think you aren't interested in any of the things that they do, and don't want to invite you out because they don't think you would enjoy yourself.

Your example of that group of people, while sad and frustrating when it happens, does demonstrate a lack of understanding on your part. Clearly they were discussing something that likely they didn't want to discuss in front of a stranger - maybe something about one of their personal lives, who knows. You interupted, and while that's ok, you didn't take the social hint of the conversation totally stopping. Like, I'm not saying that it was cool of them to not find a way to include you... but still.

I would stop worrying about your height and start trying to figure out what the actual reason is. I could understand more if you were complaining that women were never interested in you due to your height.. .cause taht would suck... I've just never once heard or seen guys exclude another guy because he was short. Not saying that it doesn't happen... but you also aren't significantly short.

This isnt the first post to say that I perhaps interrupted that group in an awkward way. I'm afraid I misrepresented the situation. Imagine 12 people all talking in 2 or 3 sub-groups of wives/husbands/friends. It was more like a party going on. The guy I knew that I first approached was putting stuff in his trunk next to the group. It wasn't awkward on my end. Until they seemed to respond as though it was. But whatever. If there is a reason, it probably has more to do with the fact that they were all stuck up. My interpretation of it being my height is just me giving them the excuse that is not even really marginally better than the simple fact that they are stuck up and not accepting new members in thier club.

Why does it make them stuck up? If I was with a group of people that I knew, and I was talking about something personal in my life.. and then one of my friend's friends came by, I would stop talking about what was going on in my life. It doesn't mean that they're stuck up, just as it doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you (and it especially wouldn't have anything to do with your height). There's no way to know what they were talking about, so it's easiest to assume that they were talking about something which they wouldn't talk about with someone they don't know. There isn't really a point in speculating about their reasonings or even speculating about their own failures with social situations; because there's nothing to be done about it.

But your own attitudes, assumptions, and behaviours you do have the ability to examine and change, and it seems like you're going to start on that! Aside from the fact that you sorta failed and made a HUGE negative assumption about them.

I'm going to post a link to another thread in this forum - it's in the Psychotherapy subforum. http://forums.psychcentral.com/psych...bout-them.html It's about Cognitive Distortions, which are the ways which our brains sorta treat us like crap. My T currently has me filling in a sheet after different "events" make me feel bad - I have to write down the negative thought(s), and then I have to go through the list of distortions and identify which ones were at play. Then I have to write a new, more appropriate, thought to follow it.

Something like that might be helpful to you, because you seem to have a lot of negative thoughts towards you and towards others!

MOJO: it could be simply confirmation bias, too. Here is from the wikipedia article about it, with my emphasis:

"Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position"

Well, OK, confirmation bias. Let me ask you this: Do stuck up people exist? And do stuck up people tend to clump together? Or is every instance of stuck up people just a misunderstanding on the part of the observer? What does "stuck up" even mean?

I think I am a pretty good judge of character. OK, sure, I have some self-esteem issues to work on. Fine. But I also don't think it is all in my head.

Some people just genuinely think they are above others for whatever reason they decide to use in order to feel that way.

Some people enjoy their spot on a social ladder, and if someone they have perceived on a lower rung begins socializing at their level they close them out. That is about the best I can do to define "stuck up". They do it, I think, because if the rungs below them disintegrate, then they are no longer "better". It is a sickness they enjoy because it feeds their ego. And they HAVE to exist in groups, not individuals, because that is the whole point of the game, "SOCIAL ladder". It happens in middle school, high school, and college. So what, then we all just want to pretend that it doesn't exist as adults? Come on.

So I ask you, do people like this exist?

I will go read the cognitive distortions article, because I'm sure I can benefit from it! Thanks! But I am not willing to accept that ALL of the social interactions in my life where I left feeling excluded were due to how I approach people. Some people really do judge you by your looks, height, clothes, or money. There is no sense in analyzing yourself to death and doing a bunch of self-help when sometimes, it really is just THEM. It is better to just move on and find a group of people, friends, that isn't like that! That what friends are for!

That's your problem, not your size or shape. For all they know you are secretly bedding beautiful blonde babes at the beach!

You have to invite yourself along, tell someone in the group you are coming too/would like to come where's everyone hanging this Saturday night, etc. Listening to others talk about what they do without telling anyone what you were doing instead or expressing a wish to have been there, what are "we" doing this weekend, etc. You have to ask for what you want, no one is just going to hand it to you, no one knows you want it!

It was the manner of which, their conversations came to a dull roar when you approached, and then even quieter. Sounds like it was an awkward social situation, just to walk over and say 'hi', to someone you'd worked with for 12 years.
It sounded cliquish, and I can see why, you'd struggle to make rhyme or reason of it.
In my opinion, they were rude! What?! Conversations couldn't continue, at a normal volume, when you approached?!
You were out playing golf.

Yeah...height, social status, what have you...they were rude!!

I do need to work on this. I'm sure that a large portion of the population isn't stuck up, if only I would put myself out there a little more. Maybe I'll have a barbeque and invite some of these people over!

So true bohemian girl 85!! That is how it should be and sometimes things aren't the same for one person as another, i know i went to my prom in high heels and my date wouldn't be seen with me that night until i took off my high heels and walked on the hot pavement as he was very shorter than me, i don't know if he realized i love short men, and even bald men make me look twice. People taller and heavier seem to have a sence of more power to my personality, and i love it. I love the sence of freedom i get from having to not be judged or judged because of my weight,, i've gained alot but i even like myself better as i don't have to worry what others think of me, but i do wish i could lose a couple of pounds.

yes they do

So, that I guess would be a good stopping point.

But I can't help but want to analyze how this particular group of people and their type arrive at their subconscious conclusions about me, and make the subconscious decision that I don't fit in. Which is where I started this thread, on my height.

Ok, so we have established that there may be more to me that is turning the group off, or that perhaps I am self limiting. I shouldn't expect a wholehearted welcome by a bunch of strangers without some gradual getting to know period over several happenstance meetings, regardless of my height or looks, or whatever. But there does seem to be a "first impression effect" that says looks play a bigger role than personality. And if that isn't good, the future happenstance meetings will not exactly be an open door.

The part that I need to learn is, that's OK. If that's how they are, then why would I want to be friends with them anyway! I just want to be myself, and if that isn't good enough in personality OR in looks, then I'll just move on!

Don't you see that you are pre-judging them, while making the argument that they should not pre-judge you? You know nothing about them or why they did not invite you into their conversation-- and yet, you've made the assumption that they must be stuck up, called them "people of their type," decided that they must have judged you based on your looks, and said "if that's how they are, why would I want to be friends with them anyway!" YOU are the one judging them! And, if that's your attitude about people you don't know, why SHOULD they want to include you?

The problem seems to be both your insecurity and your lack of understanding of social graces. As someone else already tried to explain to you, when you walk up to people talking and they suddenly get quiet, it means they are having a PRIVATE conversation. They are discussing something personal, that is not meant for a stranger's ears. It is NOT rude for them not to include you in a private conversation. And, if you don't realize that you are interrupting and continue to talk or stand there, that's awkward and will make people uncomfortable. It will probably make them avoid you next time-- not because of your looks or your personality, but because you have a tendency to intrude. It feels invasive and uncomfortable.

The fact that you are having the same problem of not being included at work and at this golfing/church event-- and that you say you've have a hard time making new friends since high school-- suggests that the common denominator is you. Everyone at work, at church, at sporting events, etc. is not stuck up. Everyone who does not want to be your friend is not stuck up. Are there stuck up people out there? Yes. But not wanting to include someone who is intruding and interrupting does not make these people stuck up. Simply "not clicking" with someone you've known at work for a long time also does not make someone stuck up. There are people out there who simply don't mesh-- no harm, no foul. We just aren't going to want to be friends with everyone we meet.

If you don't want to be automatically judged or written off by others, I suggest you not do the same thing to them. Calling them stuck up and "their type" is really rude and offensive, especially when you've just said that they are strangers!

I also disagree with those who recommend that you invite yourself to an outing that others from work are planning. If they say they are going somewhere together, I do NOT recommend saying "okay, great, let's go" or "gee, that sounds like fun, I'll get my coat." That is also rude and intrusive; it's not socially appropriate to invite yourself to something you have not been invited to. That will only turn them off to you even more.

However, I do think it is a good idea to plan something yourself and invite them. That way, you're letting them know you'd like to do something with them, you're planning it, and you're giving them the option to attend (or not). If the problem was that they didn't know you wanted to be included or hang out with them, this should solve that problem. They'll realize you are interested in hanging out with them. If, however, everyone turns down your invitation-- or they show up and it's really awkward-- then you'll realize that you have a bigger problem.

In order to draw conclusions, about this particular group of people, in your life, one would need to know the history involved with these people and your involvement with them. Did something not go right in the past? On this day, did you interrupt a conversation, private group conversation, or were they over there, literally smirking as you came over?

Have they ever said to you, "Oh, here comes' shorty!?" Have you been teased about your height, before, by them?

Let's talk about tall and short people, for a moment. If this is going to be based upon, your own, height, then lets see it through the eyes, of another 'tall girl' on this forum. And let's talk about two-sided teasing that occurs in life. I am 6 feet tall. I wear heals! Prefer the wedge types and that's just that. 'Oh, why are you wearing those, aren't you already tall enough?' hmmm, let's see, same reason why other women wear heels. Make my legs look long and slender, that why!! When I was a teen, attended a family wedding, had a woman Army Sergeant tell, me, 'just remember, you CAN be tall and wear heels! Don't forget that!!' Guess I didn't forget that. My height, along with the confidence thread, somewhere else, comes across as intimidating!

Have I not dated a man, due to height? No.

Now, let's talk about all the shorter people in my life, for a minute. Mainly girls. Hey, guess what I could do, at a club, that they appreciated me for...scan the room!! Literally. Where they, intimidated, to be my friend, no.

I used to work with a woman, that was 4'11". We were dubbed, Mutt and Jeff, because of the height difference. We broke down the job duties, based on levels of what worked best for our height!! Quite a team!

Most of the tall people in my life, played sports. But do you know what is needed on a basketball team?! Or even a volleyball team? Guards and defense. Stick the tall girl, near the hoop, in the center, or the tall girl at the net to block. The shorter girls, perimeter and back defense--they can get lower to the ground faster that the tall ones.

What, makes your shorter stature a hindrance in life? Are you so certain, either side of the height chart is better than the other? Each was designed to be the way it is.

I am not certain, it's your height. There must be a history, in your case, with these people!

Scorpiosis37,

I agree with everything you wrote. Except, like I said, it wasn't at all like I was interrupting anything. It was more like an open social event in the parking lot. And I did know someone there. I didn't pre-judge them. If I had, I would have just walked right on by.

No, they pre-judged me initially, and now I am left to examine the whole thing. I didn't walk up thinking, "these people are all stuck up". But I sure left thinking it.

I gotta say, I am tired of the blame shifting. We don't tell someone who is being bullied that it is their fault. Or someone that is being emotionally abused that it is their fault. But this "grown up, socially acceptable, all smiles" version of the same thing is suddenly my fault? Really?

Fair enough with your feeling a bit wrong-footed with the incident in the parking lot. I just think that your theory about people who are short was the reason why people are not nice to you is what made people question and not agree with you - therefore question if there was some other reason why people are like this to you because height makes no sense.

I also do not think that being ignored by a bunch of folk who do not know you equates to being bullied or emotionally abused (so your statement not relevant), nor should you, other than feeling a tad uncomfortable with the silence by your friend (which was his way of ending the conversation) be really bothered by the reaction of these people. Not only not bothered, but also not to think people are unkind to you because of your height, nor to label them all snobs because they didn't care to talk to a stranger. Am sorry to say, but you're not the center of everyone's universe, and these kind of things happen all the time to all sorts of people.

OK, fair enough. I really do appreciate ALL of the responses to this! I hope nobody thinks I am a jerk or anything. I just really love getting to the bottom of stuff.

I am going to move forward and really examine what I am doing or not doing.

some random thoughts I had while reading this thread....

I'll start off saying I grew up short. When we lined up by height in school I was either first or second in line. Then in my pre-teens - LOOK OUT - I grew like a demon! I ended up at 5'6". Average height for females in the US is 5'3" so I'm a little above average.

My friends range in height. I have some friends under 5'. I have friends taller than me. My best friend and I are also called Mutt and Jeff like someone else commented. She' way shorter and way heavier than me. Or I'm way taller than her and way thinner than her. We don't like one another because of height or weight. We like one another because of personalities and other traits.

There was a period of time at work that I was feeling very hurt by the way co-workers were acting around me. Every time I walked in the room they stopped talking. I felt very much like an outsider. I finally decided to approach one of them about how I felt. Surprise! it had NOTHING to do with me. She was thinking of changing jobs. She was talking about it with these other people because they were close friends. She did not want others to know she was thinking of leaving.

Back in the 70s I dated a guy who was about my height. For those of you who weren't around back then, platform shoes were in style. I loved them. One night he complained that they made me taller than him. My reaction was "get over it!"

Really glad to hear that last part! Since you express a desire to get to the bottom of things and figure out what you are doing or not doing, I'll just offer one thing.

You say above that you were not interrupting-- that it was just a social gathering in a parking lot. It's not possible for you to discern that you were not interrupting. You have no idea what they were talking about before you walked up. The only evidence you have is that they all got quiet when you walked up to them. So, chances are that you WERE interrupting. At the very least, you can't say you were NOT interrupting. The fact that you don't realize when you are interrupting (as further evidenced by your behavior, as you explained it in your thread) is probably a big part of what is causing others not to include you.

The fact that you are comparing not being included in a conversation with strangers to children who get bullied and people who get emotionally abused is really quite offensive, especially to those of us (like myself) who have suffered both of these experiences. You seem to want to see yourself as a victim, and are willing to try any excuse to blame someone else for your not being included (you're short, people are prejudiced against short men; they're snobs, they pre-judged you!) If we refute one hypothesis in our comments, you find another. Anything so it is not your fault. I'm not saying you've never been the victim of some kind of discrimination or mistreatment, but you have to think about these things in proportion. What you're talking about is not on the same level as bullying, emotional abuse, race/sex/class discrimination, or even weight discrimination. If people who suffer these more significant kinds of discrimination manage to make friends, date/marry, and get ahead at work, what is really stopping you?

Me too! I guess I just see this as a grown up, Nicey-Nice version of something similar. I agree completely, that it is NOT as nearly as serious of an issue.

Nothing. Nothing is stopping me. In fact, life is really pretty good for me, and I can't complain too much. But when I see it happen, and now the kids of these people are treating my son with actual bullying, perhaps I see a real trend. I feel like we are being sorted. I guess I feel like my church and school is very "sorted" into groups. I am not imagining it, and it isn't just "all me". The mere fact that we are sorted seems to give power to the people doing the sorting. I know there will always be people like this, and for most of my adult life I have found refuge in actual friendships. I guess I am just re-emerging into this world of "social status" now that I have kids in gradeschool. I really hate it.

Am I a victim? Or am I making myself a victim? I think the answer to both of these questions is yes.

I can work on myself to fix the latter. Just because there are people in the world that are truly exclusive by self proclamation doesn't mean I should be giving them any more power by hum-drumming over being excluded by them! I think that's a healthy view. Right?

My blunt, honest opinion is that yes, people might discriminate somewhat and bully because of height, but you're placing way too much importance on it, probably more than any people I know. I am 5'11", male, and don't agree with you at all. Height doesn't matter one bit when I choose friends, and I'd be surprised if it does for a lot of people.

There are so many groups in every society that suffer more because of who they are than short people. I don't think this is an important issue in comparison. You are making it sound far too serious, we all have our advantages and disadvantages. But this is just my hopeless opinion.

It doesn't seem that you are really hearing what many of us have said because you are still using terms like "these people." Who are "these people?" What makes them "these people?"

Clearly, the strangers who did not include you in that conversation are not the actual parents of the children who are bullying your son. After all, they were strangers; you don't know if they even have children! I also doubt that your co-workers are the actual parents of the kids bullying your son. If so, I would hope that, since you work with them, you were able to pull them aside and talk to them for the benefit of your son (as opposed to worrying about your own social issues with them). However, what it seems like is that you have just decided that anyone (including strangers) who does not invite you into their circle with open arms is one of "these people" who was a bully as a child, is now a bully as an adult, and is having bully-children. Who's the one here making judgments? For all you know, the reason those people in the parking lot did not include you is because they were talking about a divorce, an illness, a problem with a child, a romantic escapade-- or something totally inappropriate for you to be a part of. That does not make them part of the "grown-up version of bullies." Maybe, if you stopped referring to everyone as "these people" or "people like this," you would be able to stop making sweeping generalizations and work on building individual relationships with people. Rather than trying to insert yourself into existing groups (which isn't working out), you could try making one-on-one connections with people and make some friends that way. The people you see talking in groups are friends because of individual relationships they have with each other; they're not just a travelling pack. If you had individual friends, then you'd have meaningful relationships in your life and people to introduce you to others or include you in groups.

I'm only going to respond to this part of the conversation, as I think a lot of the rest has been covered quite well.

Everyone here is responding to the way that you have portrayed events; we're responding to your wording, and your biases, and your misconceptions. I don't know for sure about everyone else, but I can see quite clearly in your posts that you have a lot of insecurity issues, and that you easily misinterpret what people are saying.

This leads me, and likely others, to conclude that there's probably some things in your behaviour and the way that you approach others in real life that is causing the social issues you keep encountering - so we're looking beyond the two events that you've outlined. We're likely all trying to help you see that, and we'd all like you to be happier in your life. But just blaming others won't do it, because from what you've told us it's almost certainly your own actions that have left you feeling isolated. Have you likely encountered a lot of jerks? Sure, everyone has. But for every single group of people you've encountered to all be judging you and excluding you due to things like your height? No. There's bound to be something else, but unfortunately none of us here have witnessed you in action so we really can't offer you anything more substantial!