A maritial issue

I am having an issue within my marriage and would like some outside input as I try to find a solution. Recently, I discussed with her some choices she was making that, in addition to being extremely unhealthy in my opinion, were actually putting my life in jeopardy in some very concrete ways. Most, I think, would argue that I allowed these behaviors to go on for far too long without addressing them and that has added to my current problem. I wouldn't argue that point.

Anyway, she has verbally accepted responsibility and vowed to change. I say 'verbally' because only time will tell. As most people here would attest to, having a desire to change and actually changing are two very different things. So, anyway, while I believe that I said what I had to say very lovingly, I had no doubt that they were difficult things for her to hear. Over the next few days I watched as she began falling into despair and self-hatred, culminating in her comment, three days after our talk, that she believes that I would be better off without her. That, btw, is about suicidal idealization not leaving me. In probably the toughest thing I've ever had to say to her, I told her that I agreed, but that I didn't want a life without her and that making our relationship one in which I would not be better off without her is not only possible, but completely within her power. Fast forward five days...

She began making some very obvious and completely out of character sexual advances toward me. We have a sexless marriage. I don't mean this in the 'once a month or less' definition of a sexless marriage but in the 'never' category. I've accepted this long ago. She has a horrendous history of sexual abuse throughout childhood and well into adulthood and she has not dealt with these issues. When we have tried (many years ago), I watched her dissociate until she was no longer present and frankly, I have no desire to have a sexual relationship with my wife's body. If she is not present, I'd rather do without. I've told her as much, recommended counseling which she has gone to sporadically, and carried on with life.

These sexual advances are clearly (to me) borne out of fear and desperation that our relationship is in jeopardy and in a desperate attempt to salvage it. I will not have sex with her under these conditions. Period. However, that said, pushing her away, even as gently as humanly possible, is only going to add to her fear, insecurity and desperation. If history is any indication, any increase in fear, insecurity and desperation will manifest itself in, if not sex, other unhealthy behaviors that will affect me adversely as well.

I could use some perspective, suggestions, etc. Thanks.

Your wife definitely needs counseling for her unresolved issues. And some marriage counseling could help the both of you. I commed you for sticking by her side.

I wonder if what she heard here was that it is her project to change herself, as opposed to our project, or her project, but with your complete support and helpfulness along the way. I wonder if she feels alone in needing to make these changes.

If she feels alone, she might have tried to make the changes for a few days but then concluded that she just could not do it alone. Realizing that she could not make the changes could make her feel hopeless, a burden on you, and suicidal.

The way this reads, to my ears, it gives the impression that changing herself is her project and and her project alone, and really not all that challenging to do either--it is completely within her power.

To what extent would you say that what I heard is what she heard?

There is a fine line between the empowerment that can arise in connection with being told something along the lines of You can do it! and the hopeless despair that can arise when one is told that this is their project, they need to do it on their own. What sort of message do you think that she heard? (which can well be different from what you said or tried to say).

There are times when one should not be completely candid and honest. This perhaps was one of those times.

Again, I am wondering if sexual functioning is her project, you recommended counseling but I wonder if she ever heard that her sexual functioning and recovery was our project. Perhaps she did and it was. Still, it sounds like the commitment wasn't really there for whatever reason, as it sounds like therapy was sporadic at best.

You have discussed them with her?

Sexuality is not an either/or proposition: intercourse or nothing. Actually, there is room for a wide range of physical manifestations of affection. For this reason, you might think about whether there are ways that you can accept her advances without taking her to a place that she is psychologically unable to go.

Here, for example, is a video about nonsexual touch.



What would you think of not rejecting her, but saying that the two of you are not ready for intercourse right now, and so instead you would welcome basic touching with her such as is discussed on the video?

There is also something like this available:

Intimacy Without Intercourse | HealthyWomen

(without item 4 in their list, for now)

You could search for more, along the lines of advice for nonsexual touch/intimacy.

Right now, if I may ask, what sort of therapy (if any) is being undertaken by her, by you, and together as a couple?

I agree. Good luck and best wishes.

Bill,

You do realize that you're awesome right? Okay, with that out of the way, let's get to it...


Initially, I didn't want to muddy the waters by bringing up the specific issues as I frequently write novels in place of posts and it is always a challenge for me to delineate what it crucial to be understood and what is superfluous. Looks like I missed the mark a bit here but let me correct that now.
One of the issues I brought up was spending. I have become disabled and my doctors have ordered me to stop working. Unfortunately, doing so will leave us homeless and we are currently living in a situation that is barely above homelessness. For instance, we have been living without running water or heat for about a year. In the last year I have had three heart attacks at work – I am not overstating my need to quit working.
In January, I drew up a savings plan which would allow me to quit working on December 1st of this year. The budget I proposed would begin on February 1st of 2017 and allow us to live on $2200 a month while saving an additional $2200/month. I should add that we own the home we live in (no city water available) so there is no rent. She agreed to the budget. We have saved less than $2500 as of today. Two weeks ago, prior to our talk, we received five packages in the mail – assorted items she purchased, all completely unnecessary and amounting to over $500. For instance, our water heater doesn't work. In order to fix it, which would only be an issue when we resolve the lack of water issue, a special wrench is going to be required. I assumed that the plumber would have one. She assumed that we should buy one, bid on two of them on Ebay, won them both and only then realized that each cost $50 in shipping costs. Total cost: $212. I need to stop working more than we need these wrenches. We have brought in approximately $20,000 since February 1st and have spent about $1100/week since then with no rent.
I began by asking her if she knew of any way that I could help her stick to the budget. She declined and said 'she's got this'. When it failed, I asked her if she would be willing to spend some time thinking about ways I might be able to help keep her on task to reach our goal. I offered to help by holding her money, she declined. I offered to write her a personal budget that allowed her some discretionary income during our last discussion and she agreed. I am working on that now and it will be ready later today.
Another issue, and one I'm reluctant to discuss but is the other life-threatening action, is her casual use of my prescription pain killers. She began by asking if she could have one for a horrible migraine. Then for an injury to her leg. Then... and I said yes. Because frankly, if I had asked her for one of hers then you can be darned sure that I was in so great a need that I probably should be in the hospital. It got to the point where she was taking far more than half and leaving me without sufficient meds to get through the month. I only discovered too late that last month she took 86 of my prescription for 120. I now leave my pills at work.


nods This is the moment when she agreed to my working out that personal budget that I will be finishing today. Frankly, I think that it is an effort in futility as she has never shown the capacity to delay gratification on anything, but it is an effort that I am willing to give.


Well, the pills are certainly within her power completely, although I have discussed my willingness to support her in seeking treatment if that is something she wanted. It isn't.
I do think that she believes that I will support her in any way that I can – and I simultaneously believe that yes, she heard that it is her project. I'm a bit torn at this point because I have supported her through many, many botched attempts to change unhealthy behaviors and there comes a time where she must take responsibility. Placing the responsibility for change squarely on her shoulders is the first time that I have done this but I am hopeful that my enthusiastic willingness to draw up this personal budget will be a sign that she is not in this by herself.

Again, I think she hears both – depending upon where she is at mentally at the time.
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I told her that I agreed
Understood. I thought long and hard before saying this and still do not know if this was the best response. Of course I had my reservations, and still do, but the situation was becoming desperate and unsustainable.
Again, I am wondering if sexual functioning is her project, you recommended counseling but I wonder if she ever heard that her sexual functioning and recovery was our project. Perhaps she did and it was. Still, it sounds like the commitment wasn't really there for whatever reason, as it sounds like therapy was sporadic at best.
The commitment wasn't there because it is difficult, and if she can run away from something difficult, she will. I did offer to go to counseling with her regarding that issue, but she declined the offer.
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These sexual advances are clearly (to me) borne out of fear and desperation that our relationship is in jeopardy and in a desperate attempt to salvage it.
Yes.
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However, that said, pushing her away, even as gently as humanly possible, is only going to add to her fear, insecurity and desperation.
Agreed. The extent of our physical contact is extremely minimal. We hold hands and give hugs quite often, but that is it. There is no cuddling in bed or on the couch watching a movie for instance – ever. When I have asked, it is extraordinarily awkward and short-lived. I am interested in the video links you have shared and will watch them when possible. I have no volume on my computer so it'll have to be watched elsewhere but I can manage it – though not today. Thank you for the links.



I wasn't clear in my initial post. I have told her that I would love and welcome a physical relationship with her but I don't think that we are ready at this time. I brought this up during the conversation when I suggested counseling. Not only did I tell her that her dissociation was evidence to me that she was not ready, but shared too that I found her dissociation during physical contact triggering and I was not ready for it under these circumstances. I don't know if I've ever shared this on this sub-forum but I have DID due to prolonged sexual abuse as a child and though I am considered very high functioning, watching the woman I love check out when I touch her is damaging.


I meet with my counselor once or twice a week. She meets with hers sporadically...it's been about three weeks but she has an appointment this Friday. Couples therapy has not been started and it is my belief, as well as my counselors and hers that we have a bit of a way to go before that is a beneficial idea.
Thanks so much for your response Bill.

It seems like you have a lot of challenges that you are facing head on and are doing the right thing.
Does all your income go into your own account? (I would not put it into a joint account, rather I would make her the beneficiary on your account. Oh and right now, Chase is offering anywhere from $200 to $300 to open a new account with them. I earned $300 last month by moving my disability payment from one account to a new Chase account--If you don't already bank with them, that is easy money.) Have you taken her off your credit cards? (I realize she can have her own and this effects you but when I was unable to pay a $300,000.00 hospital bill, I was able to declare my own individual bankruptcy--by doing this, my H did not suffer as a result of my bad decisions--he has great credit. When you stop working, your lower income could be advantageous if a situation comes up where she needs to declare bankruptcy.)
I am sorry about your complicated sexual issues. It sounds like you are kind when you say no but do what is best for you? Listen to your gut as you navigate these "touchy" issues? I guess you are going to have to figure out what is going on in her head. I haven't always made this easy for my husband. I commend you for trying. <<hugs>>

Yagr, am just sticking my head in to say two things:

One, You have a very caring, giving heart, and you seem to understand your spouse on a fairly deep level. You listen, and observe -- well done you! So may spouses just react!

And, Two. Bill is indeed awesome.

Best,

Chyia, crossing fingers for you & your wife

I have no advice or suggestions yagr, sorry

But wanted you to know I think you're awesome, and i hope you and your wife can navigate this as smoothly as possible.

Thank you very much for your kind words.

I really don't have much to add to or suggest about your Herculean efforts as described above. She is lucky to have you. I don't know if you are lucky to have you, you what I mean?! It is hard to care for oneself and also care so intensely for another.

I think it is helpful to keep in mind that behaviors that often seem willful and unhelpful often come from pain. I know you know that, but sometimes it is good to consciously bring that to mind.

I do hope that she will take your new budget to heart.

One possibility is that the awkwardness arises from the fact that intercourse is not going to happen and so cuddling seems a bit awkward or disappointing. So I am wondering if it could be explicitly understood and agreed that cuddling is the final goal for a given night, and that nothing further is contemplated--and if so, whether that would make cuddling feel more natural and rewarding.

Right. I thought that your concern was that she would take it as rejection, even though that is not your intent.

I'm very sorry to learn of the abuse you experienced as a child. It makes sense to me that that experience would affect your reaction to her DID.



Well another perspective might be that there comes a time to stop trying and acknowledge that things are not going to change, and decide what to do on the basis of that acknowledgement. What is your thinking about that perspective?

You sound like you have a lot on your plate right now. I hope your wife is able to make the necessary changes and that you take good care of yourself in the meantime. I wish you the best of luck and agree Bill is awesome.

I can't offer you advice on your relationship, I can tell you how an addict works though, as I have been one for 24 years.

The fix comes first, if your not thinking about it, your working out how to get it, where to get the money, then your feeling guilty for doing it. Then you want to push the guilt away and the cycle starts all over again.

It's first thing you think about, when you wake up, last thing that you think about at night.
When something jeopardizes my chance at my security and ability to get my fix, I will agree to pretty much anything.manipulation is also second nature to addicts, lying, and being secretive.
This doesn't mean we are necessarily vindictive or nasty, but selfish...definitely. And very, very low impulse control.
Most of us are running from something, but there is no fixing the underlying problem until the addiction is dealt with.

If any of this sounds familiar, then I think perhaps your focus needs to be wether she can accept this and focus on fixing this first. And if you are in a position to see this potentially very difficult period through.

The other said thing is often it's not until we lose everything we realise there is a problem.

I hope very much that this isn't something you will have to contend with, and that it's more her insecurities at play.

All the best, take care.

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone. Sometimes I am concerned that my slowness in responding after someone wrote a kind, thoughtful or helpful post will appear inconsiderate. So, let me be completely self-indulgent and explain that my strength and health simply won't let me respond immediately some days, but it was never due to a lack of appreciation for those who took the time to respond. But then, you all never took it that way...see, I told you it was self-indulgent.

I do know what you mean. So does my therapist.

I am pretty fortunate in that I do realize that; so much so that it often keeps me in bondage. It is much easier to walk away from someone that is seen as unkind and selfish than it is someone who you perceive to be injured and suffering.

As do I, but I would be very surprised if she does. Even a fervent desire to achieve something isn't enough if you don't have the tools. Certainly she can learn, but I think it's going to come on the other side of a failure or two.

I actually have tried this but it's been a very long time. Revisiting and thinking about it as I read your suggestion though, prompted some new twists on it that I might try.

Thank you. I don't know if it was a typo, but just to clarify - it's me that has DID, she does not, although she is prone to bouts of dissociation.

Completely valid and a necessary question to my mind. I'm an eternal optimist when it comes to people. After all, I've changed and if I can do it... I am not there yet but yes, I have asked myself a few times over the years. Thus far, sufficient hope remains.

We talked tonight and addressed much more than was in this post. A few minutes from work, she called me sobbing hysterically. I calmed her down and promised we would talk tonight. A few minutes later when I checked my e-mail I found this from her:

I made a few points during our talk and it went something like this...

1. I love you.

2. There are also many things I like about you.

3. You hate yourself because of your behaviors.

4. You are not your behaviors.

5.
Sensations lead to thoughts;
Thoughts lead to feelings;
Feeling lead to beliefs;
Beliefs lead to behaviors.

You hate your behaviors so you try to change them. And fail. And then hate yourself more. It does no good to try and change your behaviors directly. In order to change your behaviors, you must change your beliefs - specifically your beliefs about yourself. i.e. you are unworthy of love and happiness.

6. You've been trying your whole life to change your behaviors and it hasn't worked. Dare to make a new mistake.

7. I know that you don't know how. You have a counseling appointment this Friday. Tell her where you are at. Don't hold back. Tell her you don't know how and need help now. Take her advice.

8. You want to add joint counseling? Say the word and I'm there. Want to take a month off work and go inpatient to jump start something? I've got your back - we'll survive on one income and screw the budget because if you are not okay, we'll not be okay. I am done enabling but I will still move heaven and earth to help.

9. Did I mention that I love you?

We'll see how it goes from here.

Congratulations on your clean time! I celebrated 25 years clean and sober last month so I have a pretty good understanding of addiction. You do too, your explanation nailed it.

Kind of humorous that I failed to include, in my update, the point of the original post. So, I did also address the sexual advances she's made. She said, "Well it seems that I only ever give you grief, so I thought I could give you that to make up for it."

I said it a lot kinder and involved than this, but basically told her that while I would welcome a sexual relationship with her, I'm not interested until it is something that she is giving herself too.