Why Do The Partners of Friends Include Themselves in Your Friendship?

Hey everyone!

I was having some issues the past few days, but since things have calmed down at home and my mom is feeling a bit better, I have been able to reconnect with my friends, you know to be social, and get my head out of the box of responsibility for a while.

However.....

I have these two friends, both women, who I had known years ago. We all had crossed each other's path during the long road of mental health recovery and self-care, and knew each other either in the Day Program I had attended or the Hospitalization I had years ago. They have both come in and out of my life at one time or another, and i finally made a solid reconnection with both of them in recent weeks.

Here is the problem, (or what seems odd about what I am feeling):

Friend 1; We got together, had lunch, caught up with each other and reminisced about the old days and how far we have come. We laughed, bonded and had a great time. A week later I get a call from a number I don't recognize, so I don't answer. It was my friend's boyfriend who called, then left a message, followed by a text: Hi this is (Friend 1's) boyfriend, I would like to meet you, she says great things about you. I thought aww...cute, but I had a weird feeling about contacting her boyfriend directly so I didn't call him back, it just felt off...and I don't know why. (I haven't heard from Friend 1 at all, so it makes me wonder even more).

Friend 2: We just reconnected on Facebook, and I was SO happy to hear from her. It was great catching up through messanger, and the same deal reminiscing and sharing stories. Then....I get a friend request from her husband, and then a message; I am (Friend 2's) husband, nice to meet you. I didn't accept his request, and honestly I feel a little dumbfounded about the whole thing.

I guess the point of this VERY long drawn out post is, do you think there is something odd about this? I mean Friend 1 hasn't contacted me, (I did leave her a message on Tuesday, but I never called back her boyfriend), and Friend 2 made no mention that her husband was going to contact me.

I don't know about you guys, but I find this REALLY worrying and a strange. Like when the hell did it become okay to like randomly reach out to your woman's friends? I mean I don't think their intention is to get with me, not at all, but more like to somehow be in control who their woman is talking to? I mean I may be TOTALLY jumping the gun here, but it really feels like the "control" type vibe I am getting. I mean what happened to boundaries? Can't a woman be in a friendship without her guy totally butting himself in?

I haven't spoke to either friend about it yet, but I honestly don't even KNOW how to approach it at all with either one of them. I mean my first instinct was, awww, that's sweet her guy is taking an interest in his partner's friends. But the more I thought about it, I thought to myself, no, there is something wrong there.

I don't know, and I am really confused. Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or have been through anything similar? (By the way, it worries me that Friend 1 never contacted me again after I didn't answer her boyfriend. Is my mind going crazy for thinking maybe he told her to stay away from me because I didn't call him back?) I am probably spinning and speculating I know, but I just sitting here in wonder about it.

Any help or thoughts would be appreciated.

Um, I find that odd too. I have only ever friended a partner's friend after meeting them in person and spending time with them. Not just randomly after hearing about them. That does seem inappropriate to me. I mean, they haven't even met you yet. Why do they NEED to be friends with their wife's friends they haven't met yet in person? That's just, odd.

Totally weird. I have a few of my husband's friends on Facebook, after we have spent time together in person. My husband has some of my friends on his Facebook because they interact on Facebook or in person. I would never reach out to a friend's spouse without knowing them as I feel it doesn't sent a good message.

It happened to me twice.

Pretty much a husband of a new friend (neighbor) hit on me over the phone and then in person. It was terrible. Second time someone I was doing some work for, her grown son contacted me with inappropriate proposal.

I believe these men are hitting on you, perhaps saw your picture or heard of your looks. In my case they knew I was recently divorced and heard I looked good so they figure I’d be easy to get to bed. No kidding. Stay away from these people

My gut was the control vibe, too, until I started reading replies. But if it is the control thing, hopefully you can remain in touch just one on one.

I know right!???? I really thought so too. I am in total agreement with you here. It didn't even dawn on me, till the same EXACT thing happened with Friend 2. Like when the situation with Friend 1 happened, I kinda blew it off, but man it really makes me think. Why the HELL do they need to be friends with me too? I have zero interest in them, just my damn friends!!

it absolutely doesn't send a good message! i totally agree. You and seesaw both made really good points how you met your friend's partners in person first. I haven't even gotten NEAR that stage yet with either one of my friends. I mean this whole situation is just a few weeks old. Can these guys just back the hell off?

You may be absolutely right too. And I genuinely thank you for bringing up such a good point, and I am really sorry that this happened to you, not once but twice! These guys may be totally after me, (I know they both saw a picture of me), but does that mean I have to abandon my friends because they are in relationships with possible douchebags? I don't know, I don't think I shouid pass judgement on my girlfriends like that for their poor partner choices, especially since i have made REALLY poor partner choices in the past myself.

That's where my gut is mostly pointing to as well, the whole "controlling thing"

I had a thought about this whole thing too. I think I am going to book an appointment with my therapist for Monday or Tuesday, if he is available. I think I REALLY need to talk to him, not because I haven't had helpful advice but this is a really unique situation. My therapist of 11 years, knows BOTH these women personally, as in they have had some kind of therapy with him in the past, (either Group or One on One). Like I said, I met these women years ago, when I first moved to Long Island, and we ended up in the same kind of "mental health therapy" circles. I know that he can't disclose what he discussed with them, but I think he may have some insight that might be helpful.

Also, I reached out to a freind from California who said I should cut all the speculation and be honest and outright tell my friends what their partners did, but honestly I am too much of a chicken shyt for that, and I mean we JUST got in contact again.

We will see how it goes, and I will definitely keep you guys posted. Thanks for the helpful replies!!!!

Odd. Odd. Odd.

Sounds like they both thought that possibly you're a guy that she's having a fling with and was trying to catch her out.

I am surprised people think this is odd or suspicious. But then again, I don't know anything. I think after meeting them in person, it is not strange to send a Facebook invite, right? Or to have each other's phone number? I agree it is a bit odd that they immediately contact you after they know about your existence. But why does it have to be negative?

Overall, the negative view of men is also shocking to me. Not saying it is correct. I am naive after all. It is just unnerving to see people warn others about men who haven't done anything but send a message, as I am a male and females may have all kinds of reservations about me because I am male too.

It is odd, and someone did mention to me that same exact idea. Somehow, may both their partners think my freinds are having an affair/fling and are using me as an excuse or they straight up don't believe i am a woman and a freind at all.

Look, it is my fault for not fully articulating my thoughts here. I actually wrote this all out in my blog and I basically ADMITTED to myself that all this speculating of the worst behavior, could be completely wrong. Friend 1's boyfriend did call and say, "Friend 1 had some really nice things to say about you, and I would like to meet you." But I would like to make a point that he did not say "let's all get together soon," instead of "I would like to meet you.' Again, speculation though.

To clear up a few things here, from what I read in your post, that you were asking if contacting a friend of your partner after meeting them is okay, right? Of course it is! That's the point I am trying to make with all of this. THEY NEVER MET ME, they just heard of me, and took it upon themselves to contact me, completely bypassing both of my friends. I am in no way bashing or man-hating, but can I ask a simple question to you, as a man, would you ever contact a friend of someone you are dating? I mean like just took it upon yourself to butt in on their friendship?

I understand that you feel men are being put in a negative light here, and that it was "just a message," but my POINT is there seems to be no boundaries here whatsoever. To just step in, snoop and do whatever you want. I really want to sit here and blame my friends for this in a way, because they absolutely didn't warn me that their guys were going to contact me. But what if they didn't know?

So many questions here, and when i think about it more and more, I so feel like throwing in the towel and walk away completely.

I understand that you never met them, and indeed, I agree with your, and others, point there.

I have never contacted my best friend's girlfriend. The other way around, I never really had a girlfriend so I never had to think about their friends.
I doubt I would really do it? I might consider it is I am concerned that I am not connecting with her friends? I doubt it. In my mind, how would my GF think more highly of me when I connect her friends? No, I can never see myself do that. I can see myself thinking I need to become friends with their friends, at least a little bit. I mean, it is how two couples develop this kind of couple friendship. But then both need to be taken. Otherwise, you have this strange triangle, and you are the third wheel. Which would make it odd.

Surely, most men would want to be on good terms with their wife or girlfriend's female friends. I think most men think, wrongly or rightly, that this is an important criteria to meet. That her girlfriends approve of you.

But surely, the female partner here is the one who ought to control all this. If she knows nothing about this (and I think here we don't know for sure but we can assume she probably doesn't), then that is indeed kind of controlling.

Why wouldn't it be caused by insecurity? Or just something with no thought behind it (in the second Facebook case?). I mean, this whole idea that they saw your picture and that they now lost their minds, really?

I think I would bring it up, casually. Not expressing all your concerns. See how they respond to it. If this would worry them, they would want to know. And you wouldn't want to keep a secret from them. Even though you just reconnected. I guess it can be kind of tricky if they have been together for years, and now you come along and cause a problem in their relationship, if that is really what it is.

When I spoke of my partner's friends I meant both male and female, so there was no negativity about men included.

Yeah that is very strange. Partners normally get introduced by the by, not like this. I have never encountered this kind of behaviour.

It sounds like possibly controlling behaviour. I would keep your distance from the partners but keep up with your friends as it sounds like they are good friends. If you accept the friend request then maybe change settings to limit what they see.

I don’t see anyone having negative opinion of men at all. In fact there is nothing in this thread specifically about men versus women, just about odd behaviors. Could be men or women.

In my examples those people who inappropriately hit on me were men so my examples were about men. If they were women, examples would be about women.

I personally have no reservations about men whatsoever, in my long life I’ve met a lot of men but brought examples of only two behaving oddly so not sure what you mean by reservations. Hm. My husband certainly would not call someone he never met and ask to meet them just because I know the person. In fact none of the men in my family or friends would do such a thing. So clearly such behaviors have nothing to do with being men.

I wonder why you took this thread personally and assumed this is a generalization about men? It’s not the first time you do that. Is that something you might want to address with your therapist? Worrying that if someone knows some inappropriate man, it might reflect on
you?

I'm not male bashing, either. Just because I can get an uncomfortable feeling at the idea of relationship control flags doesn't mean that All are like that.

Plus, I've been in a precarious situation with a partner before. Started hounding me about a female coworkers kind comment on my social media picture years ago....

Which some might start befriending friends for "monitoring"...
Why is this turning into more than what the OP asked?

There are unspoken rules and both these partners broke them.

The first one who called independent of his wife is just never done by anyone I’ve ever known. I can’t even speculate why he did that. I would tell my friend that her SO called me, just so she’d know, and that you never called him back.

The second one who friend requested you, before ever even meeting you in person, is really strange, too...just not done. My h does have my female friends as his facebook friends, but it was after he got to know them, and felt like it was ok. I’m not sure who friended who, and it was totally fine with me. I didn’t think anyone was inappropriate in that. I also think my h friended them in order to see more of what goes on with me, my posts, etc...

You make some really good points here and I thank you for your insight from the male perspective, but I can tell that you agree that it is up to my friends to introduce me to their partners, not for their partners to take it upon themselves to interject in our new found friendship. I think I will bring it up, the more that I think of it, with each of them separately, in a nice, calm innocent way. Also, the fact that Friend 1 hasn't returned any of my calls since her boyfriend reached out to me and I never called him back, concerns me a little. But you know what? That's my friends' relationships, and I left their lives years ago, and they have current men in their lives now, so I can't push the issue with either one of them if they want to continue to reconnect. It is, in fact, very tricky in a way.

I understand you saying there could be no thought behind it, and it could be innocent, but again, put yourself where I am at. What if your girlfriend decided that she was going to flat out reach out to your male friends. I mean EVEN if you told her it was okay, (which by the way you not warning your male friends that she will contact them is a red flag in itself). I mean what would go through your mind? I mean I understand there is some missing information here on whether or not my friends know their partners contacted me, and I plan on remedying that soon. Answers are coming!

Oh, and to say that men haven't gone crazy by seeing a woman's picture and getting all riled up about them, is kind of a blanket statement and assumption, because I have known that to happen to me plenty of times before. I understand that as a man, you might not be that way, but every man is different as I am sure you know.

Also, I don't really see where the other posters were man-bashing either, I mean I DID understand that I let it slide that I hadn't included the fact that these guys could, in fact, be innocent in all of this, but honestly, that really feels naïve of me to believe such a thing, especially based on my experiences.

Yes, I agree, you expressed your views based on your experiences and they were of sound mind and helpful to me. Again, thank you.

Thank you so much prefab! I thought a lot about it too, and you're right, it feels really strange to me, indeed. I have every intention of keeping my distance from their partners, but the more I write and talk about it, it may not be up to me in a way. Like I mentioned, I am coming in to their lives after years of being absent, so that could cause some concern with their partners and curiosity about me and who I am, but they went about it the wrong way, and it could also very well be that they are controlling. So there are so many factors here that I need to work out, and figure out whether or not I am going to move forward in reconnecting with my friends.

I agree on this point, and maybe he has made assumptions about the generalization of men on this particular thread, BUT I do acknowledge the fact that it could be possible, (as in the facebook thing), that it was innocent. I mean in my heart of hearts and in all my experience I really think that's not the case, and the behavior is very odd, I mean that's why I created this thread. But you know stranger things have happened, and I don't want to rule out any possibility, till I know more, which I am planning on finding out.

But it was good of you to notice that people posting on threads may make it all about them, or their situations in relation to the subject at hand, so it is a good suggestion that maybe that it could be better worked out in therapy. It is absolutely true that people post based on their experiences and their own opinions, good or bad, but truth be told, I just appreciate any insight they can give.

Haha, always the voice of reason sometimes that pop out of nowhere, right???!! I DID notice the subject of this thread took a bit of a turn from what I had originally posted, and it was really nice of you to point that out for me. But you know what, things like this do tend to bring up the whole women/men debate in relationships, so honestly it was to be expected. I have read a lot of threads over the years in this Relationship Section and I will admit that sometimes I feel that men are getting the shorter end of the stick. BUT, I am not a pushover at all, I know that sometimes they can be dead wrong in a situation, but I always like to keep an open mind. Having a dialogue is so important, for both men and women, and even if you don't agree with a male or female's point of view, doesn't make you wrong either, OR in the other case, ALL about YOU as well.

But I appreciate your perspective and sharing your experience with me. It could be very well be a case of "friend monitoring" as well. Very good point!

Very good points!!! There are unspoken rules in relationships when it comes to outside freindships, isn't there? I mean like it seems to be more about boundaries in their relationships than anything else. Thank you for your suggestions, and insight based on your experiences. I mean I would love to call Friend 1 and ask innocently about her boyfriend's call to me, but you know she hasn't even called me back, so honestly it may be out my hands on that one. I don't have any say in what goes on in her relationship, so all I can do it wait till she responds. It may be a shame that I might have lost my friend, due to the fact that her boyfriend is controlling, but it is up to my friend to make the decision for herself of whether or not she wants to be my friend.

I guess the point I am trying to make here is, that I can't FORCE myself on either of my friends, because their partners have reached out to me, and I ignored them. Their partners have no bearing on whether or not I want to keep these freindships going, but if my friends let their partners decide who they can and cannot talk to, I think it's pretty much out of my hands. I am the one going out on a limb here, so reaching out is all I can do.

Thanks again for all the wonderful, helpful replies!!

Sounds like persuing either of those past friendships wiukdnhave a lot of drama involved & not good to get further involved with. Sounds like friend 1 has already decided not to continue wirh persuing a friendship with yiu for whatever reason by just not responding to you.

I would just hang back & see if either past acquaintance contacts yiu & persues the a friendship farther.

Sometimes I have met up with people from past experiences together....reminicing was all it amounted to because we no longer had much in common & neither continued to stay in contact

I think you did the right thing by ignoring both men. I think that it is odd that they contacted you in that way. And even though you're only able to speculate their motives right now, if you continue friendships with the women (which it sounds like you want to), you could potentially bring it up to them if that felt right to you, and see what they had to say about it or if they even knew about it.

I think friend #1 has a controlling bf and he’s jealous. He might give her a hard time about her friends. My ex was like that and it was easier to just stay home and disconnected than to fight with him about who’d you go out with, where did you go, did any guys hit on you, etc.,. ☹️ Luckily my friends took me back after I broke up with him.
Friend #2 doesn’t sound like much. Lots of people just like to collect FB friends and maybe he just wants to feel a part of her past since you’ve known her so long.

This rings very true to me. Maybe it was meant to be that we crossed each others' paths for this one moment to reconnect, reminisce, pat each other on the back and move on? The more I think about it, the more I want to treat it that way. You're right about Friend 1 choosing not to respond to me, whether or not her boyfriend got upset at her that I didn't call him back, and did whatever, she chose not to contact me again and just stay silent. Thank you for your insight though, it is definitely appreciated!!

Thanks for siding with me on the decision to ignore both men. I think it was really inappropriate, and it felt wrong to contact them. You know, I hate to say this, but this has left my heart flat, and I feel like I don't want to continue friendships with them. But, thanks so much for putting in your two cents. and offering your support!

Thanks for this Michicgan1966. I am really sorry that you had to deal with such a controlling boyfriend in your past, I think this might end up happening with Friend 1. I really think her boyfriend might be controlling so I am going to just let it go, even as sad about it as I am. I still haven't contacted Friend 2 again, although you make a good point about it probably not being much, because her husband might just want to share memories of her past and reconnecting with me. But all of this, just........

Look when I created this thread, I was a bit confused of what to do. Everyone that chimed in with advice were VERY helpful, and I deeply appreciate it. But tonight, I have such a sinking feeling in my heart, about the fact that Friend 1 has decided not to contact me, and Freind 2's husband is still lurking around Facebook waiting for me to respond to him.

I just have an overwhelming feeling of claustrophobia. Like I feel like I am backed into such a corner when I reconnected with these two friends. I don't want to have anything to do with their partners, I really, truly, don't. I mean this is such an early stage and I feel like I am being pressured, when all I wanted to do was rekindle my freindships.

Friend 2's last message to me on Facebook was to call her, and she left her number for me. I still haven't answered her. In fact, I have been avoiding Facebook. The more I think about this, I have this fear creeping in my head, that when I call her, she will put her husband on the phone to say "hi" or whatever, and I feel real panic bubbling inside of me. I really don't want to fcking talk to him, again because this is feels too early in the reconnection, and honestly I feel like I am being pushed here. It is probably a TOTAL irrational fear, and I am overreacting, but my bipolar mind is spinning and it is turning into frustration and anger.

The whole irony of all this is, I am always being told that I need a bigger social circle of freinds, that it would be good for me, and I know its my choice of whether or not I listen to that advice because it IS my life, but this whole attempt to make friends, or reconnect feels like it is totally blowing up in my face.

I am sad, hurt and confused, and I feel like I don't even want to frickin' try anymore. It felt SO good to talk to those two women again, (even though Friend 2 was just on Facebook messanger), but I feel like their partners have totally turned me off to the whole friendship idea, and as much as I didn't want to abandon these friends because of their partner choices, I am feeling really hurt by the whole thing and I find myself spinning with speculation and its causing me stress.

I feel really bad tonight. Thank God I was able to get the appointment today to see my therapist on Tuesday afternoon.

Try the meet-up groups in your area relating things that interest you. That way you start fresh with meeting new people.

I didn't do meet-up's in the new town I moved to but just getting involved & out in the community I met tons of people in many diffetent interests I have from horses & riding to Bible study to art & leading kid arts & crafts for special occasions. Work eith the floral decoration crew at the horse psrk for shows. I have met so many wonderful people just getting involved in our community. Have worked long hours with rescued horses during the abuse trial so I know many of the leaders in the community too. Also i stay in contact with a friend from my DBT group....oh yes, I love ballroom dancing & have met the most wonderful group of people doing that also. I had no idea this little community of 8000 had so many awesome people or opportunities until I just started doing things.

I know what you mean about that feeling, the flat feeling. New friendships are difficult to create. And old friendships, you at least know that there have been good time, good moments and shared memories. And here are 2 friends that could have been a given and the hope for a social life with them fell flat.
I've recently felt the flat feeling myself when an old friend moved within driving distance. I was looking forward to reconnecting. But was left feeling meh, when communicating privately, she went on and on about something in her life and I was supportive. Then when I shared a bit about what's going on with me, I was left with absolutely no response. Soooo, there goes that idea :\ you're not alone

It can be so dispiriting to have an experience like this when you put yourself out there. I hope this won't knock you down too long, maybe they will get in touch, and you can decide then if this is viable for you or maybe not. You definitely can make more friends that's for sure, you are warm intelligent and caring, those are all great traits future friends will appreciate.

I also think it's weird. A few months ago, I had the new girlfriend of some guy I rarely talk to add me on FB. It felt awkward - if it was some jealousy thing on her part, I didn't want to *not* accept the request, you know? She'd added a ton of his friends, not just me. She must have realized how little I talk to him because she's defriended me already, lol.

The telephone call from Friend 1's boyfriend is even more bizarre - and her not responding to you after that, huh?? I can see why you'd be reluctant to pursue these friendships any further after that.

Thank you so much eskielover for your wonderful suggestion. When I pick myself back up out of this hole I put myself in, due to the pain and agony I have been going through due to this whole situation, I will become more pro-active in my community. I am glad that you had such wonderful experiences connecting with people in your community. It gives me real hope that I will be able to connect in that way too.

This experience has taught me that I NEED actual real friendships in my life, not just digital ones online. That connection I felt, struck a chord in me. I got a taste of what it would be like to have a real life friend in my life again, and it stirred the feeling of bonding, and the feeling of a real sense of sisterhood in me, and I would love to start anew and find that in some more people in my community.

Thank you again for posting and following my story.

Aw, healingme4me I am so sorry that you had that experience with an old friend recently. I will say that it hurts extra deeply when the conversation is "all about the other person" and when you voice your own story, POOF, they are gone. Honestly, that is totally selfish on her part, and I am sorry you had to go through that, and now feel the loss.

You know, it is more than feeling flat, I felt deep loss on a level I can't even explain because it has been a really painful 24 hours for me. But, thank you for posting here on this thread and showing me your support. I appreciate it very, very, much.

Thank you so, so much for your support, prefab! I know you follow along with me on PsychCentral and you have reached out to me and shared wonderful insights with me over the years. Trust me, I didn't forget, I actually smile to myself when I see you posting all those happy things in the "Coffehouse" section of General Social Chat.

It was a hard thing for me to deal with, and it hit me really hard, harder than I had expected, and if they reach out to me, I think it would take some serious thought on my part and a good conversation about their partners and how active they are in the friendships my friends keep. It is a discussion that must be had, because I am really disturbed by the fact that their partners interjected like this prefab, more than you know.

But thank you again, for you wonderful support, I genuinely appreciate it. Truly.

I can totally relate to that awkward Facebook experience hvert! I mean like Friend 2's husband just flat out sent me a request AND an introduction message completely bypassing an introduction with Friend 2 at the helm. The whole thing has thrown me off, and honestly has deeply saddened me, especially now that Friend 1 has gone completely AWOL after I never responded to her boyfriend's call. Thank you for commenting and sharing your story with me about that awkward Facebook thing, its nice to hear that I am not alone in my discomfort of a situation like that. It really is.

I want to say, that everyone on this thread has been unbelievably and extremely helpful to me as I navigate my feelings and thoughts on how I am going to handle this situaion. I will admit to you all that I got hit really hard with this situation, like over the top anguish, loss and disappointment of what has transpired here. It may have been overkill due to the Seroquel I am on, or just being bipolar in general.

I have decided not to persue a friendship with either one of these women. I realize, I may doing myself an injustice because I shouldn't really blame my friends for their partner choices. But as a woman, I feel completely unsafe, scared and unbelievably uncomfortable about my both my friends' partners and I am going to remove myself from all of it, and all this drama.

I felt real anguish, like bawling my eyes out, complete insomnia, and total disregard for self-care during this time. My wonderful Mom checked up on me when she heard me completely breaking down and simply said, "Don't let other people get to you, try to move on if you can.' I explained to her its not the people perse that is causing my pain. It's the fact that for the first time, in a such a LONG time I had a real life in-person connection with a friend who also can totally relate to what its like to have a mental illness, but who just made me feel wonderful because I had that human bond again. I had been hiding behind the computer for too damn long, and when I realized that I lost the chance to have these real life in-person friendships, with TWO wonderful, amazing women from my past, my heart literally broke in two because I now know that REAL LIFE freindship is what I really need in my life, and REALLY truly want.

So, I am going to work on that, and I am going to move forward and go ahead with eskielover's plan when I feel better. I had dropped into a deep hole of depression and just what felt like absolute frustration and anger directed mostly at my friend's partners, and mostly at how this whole thing played out. The good news is, I pulled myself out, and dusted myself off, and began to find some peace. I had some help though, because as I was stirring in my emotional bipolar hell of utter anguish, I read a post in a friend's blog, and it was just the kick I needed in the right direction. Thank you all for your continued support, and I hope this little note of advice helps you all in some way, as it helped me. Like I always say, pay it forward!!