[chaotic13]

OK, I’m feeling a bit conflicted this morning and I hoping some of you have some good suggestions. My stepdaughter visited yesterday to collect some stuff she had been storing at our house. She is great, we have a close relationship and she simply adores her little brothers. My husband and I have been having some real problems and as with most martial problems they have caused collateral damage to the children.

As my stepdaughter, her fiancé, and several of his friends are moving stuff ,her Dad is just one continuous jabbering stream of negativity. Some of the stuff he was saying was just inappropriate. ‘Oh, there goes the couch you said we could have.’ ‘Oh, sure take all the good stuff and leave us your %#@&#!!’ ‘Great, I finally get my gun room back; I hope your planning on cleaning it before you go.’ My husband is one of those people who can never seem to find anything nice to say, who feels that the world is constantly taking advantage of him, and that he always give to other people but receives nothing in return. We are in some financial trouble, but we are by no means poor. We did it to ourselves, we (he and I) need to suck it up and deal with it! I have always been kind and generous to his children but it has always been because I care about them not because I wanted something in return. His kids don’t owe us anything. The way he was behaving in front of his future son-in-law and his friends was really embarrassing to me and I could tell his daughter too.

At one point his daughter and I ran out to get some takeout before they started home with her stuff. On the way she just unloaded and was on the verge of tears. I told her that we were fine and that she didn’t owe us anything, that she was getting started with her life at that under normal circumstances we should be helping her out not the other way around. Then she tells me that over the last few months that her Dad has been asking her for money and she had been giving it to him! Although she didn't admit it, I realized that she was the reason I gotten a birthday present this year. I almost died! I told her I loved the ring but shouldn't do stuff like that. My husband hasn't gotten me a birthday present in a long time. I told her very directly that I really appreciate her caring about us but she is not to give him money! We are not at risk of losing our house that we simply need to live within our means like everyone else.

I don’t know what to do. I know she is concerned for me, her brothers and that she loves her Dad. But he is manipulating her, making her feel guilty, and potentially creating problems between her and her fiancé. I’m worried for her and I am embarrassed that my husband has made me a charity case without my knowledge. I just want to scream at him, but that will just make him lash out at her for telling me. He is such a ……narcissist! I am so conflicted.

[SweetCrusader]

What a horrible situation for your stepdaughter

Are you sure this guy is the kind of guy you want to spend your life with? He sounds like a real jerk to me.

It sounds to me like you have solved the problem already both you and your step daughter know what is going on and he cant lend any more money off her, as for the future son in law well he has got to find out what your husband is like sooner or later ..... sounds out like he has found out sooner.

I am thinking of you.....

Trish.

[seeker1950]

Mckell....honey!
As I read your post, I was thinking "narcissist," and then I was surprised to read your final statement, that "He is such a narcissist!"....I've dealt with such a person myself, and it took me a good three years of reading and research, help on a forum devoted to recovery from involvment with a narcissist, to get over it.
It seems you already know what you're dealing with regarding this man, your husband. If you have done much research on Narcissism, you probably already know that a true narcissist is not going to change, is all about ME, ME, Me, and cannot be helped, even if they express the desire to do so. Sorry for the negativity, but it sounds to me like you need to search for options for yourself and your own emotional well-being.
Your stepchildren are so fortunate to have YOU as the voice of balance and generosity in their lives.
Love
Patty

[Doh2007]

It's a lot easier to say goodbye to someone you are angry at.

[chaotic13]

Honestly, I've disengaged from him emotionally already. I realize that this is creating more problems for me. I think the reason my step daughter succumbed to her father’s manipulation was because she cares deeply for me and her brothers. I had become very depressed in last spring and the house kind of got out of control. I had retreated into myself leaving my young children without a buffer. I've since got myself back on my feet and am reasserting my influence on the household. I am by no means perfect and have a lot baggage of my own. But my kids keep me going.

If it was just me, I’d have left before now. But it is not just about me. Here are some of the things I am struggling with:

1) Although he was divorced before I met him, I’ve seen the impact of his vindictiveness towards his 1st wife and the conflicts that created for their children who were in high school at the time. After their break up the kids lived with him. When I met him, my one step daughter totally hated her mother and would have nothing to do with her. It has only been recently that she has started to actually talk with her mother. Now she is realizing that there are two sides to every situation. If I leave now the ugliness that plagued her childhood will be shifted to my children and I will become the villain. They are only 8 and 10.

2) My husband is on disability, I provide for the family. The bottom line, if I left it would cost me more money; in our convoluted justice system I would likely owe him alimony.

3) My kids are really close with their sisters. I am very close with them as well. Leaving my husband would ultimately negatively impact these relationships. They would likely be torn between their feeling for me, their brothers, and their Dad.

I just don’t see any easy way out at this point. I just don’t want my kids to end up assuming my husband’s negative, everybody owes me personality. The dividing of our family at this point will likely only result in more conflict and negativity, more financial problems, and less love and support for my children.

[Perna]

Go to a lawyer; don't start worrying about who might owe who alimony. My husband's ex-wife wanted alimony for life and that has to do with various county laws so my husband's lawyer had him move to the next county over (which had never granted alimony for life) and buy a house and then file first. Protect yourself and your children; if he's a sourpuss, he's a sourpuss, you don't have to live with that.

Why would leaving their father impact the children's relationships with their sisters? The sisters know what their dad is like, etc. The ex-wives certainly know. I don't think anyone is going to be torn between someone pleasant (you) and Mr. sourpuss?

[sabby]

((((((((((((McKell)))))))))))))))

In your thinking, you are coming up with many excuses as to not leave your husband at this time. I'm not saying that your thoughts are misplaced, you definitely have to think of the outcome of such a move. But I can tell you from experience, that staying with a man like that for the childrens sake is not the way to go. I can definitely say that staying will hurt them more in the long run. Do you think they don't see and have some comprehension already of what their father is all about? What their minds are capable of understanding now is that things are not right and dad doesn't do a thing for them...it's all about him.

You are right...there is no easy way around any of this. If you are looking for an easy way, you will not find it. What you will have to do is feel in your heart that you have done everything humanly possible to make the best of a very difficult situation. You will have to realize that no matter what you do, it will not change your husband. You are not responsible for his actions. They belong to him. What you are responsible for is how you handle the situation and the best things for you and your kids.

Perna is right, you should consult an attorney to find out what your options are. Just because your husband is on disability does not automatically mean he is entitled to alimony. Since you will be raising the children on your own....the courts will look at that and realize that they come first and foremost.

As far as your stepchildren and sons relationship goes...your steps know exactly who their father is and will find a way to make things work. It sounds as if they are all older, hence they will have the ability to make more rational decisions than your sons young age. They don't have to choose between anyone....if they love your sons, there will still be contact regardless of whether or not you are married to their father. Besides, it sounds like you have a wonderful relationship with them....so let that relationship stand! The older kids I'm sure have seen how much you try to make things work and will be grateful for your efforts in the long run.

I know this is not an easy thing to come to terms with. I'm so sorry you are going through all this and your kids too. I'm not advocating that you leave your husband, I'm going on the premise that you are almost to that point in your own line of thinking.

I really hope you find an answer that you are willing to live with very soon. I wish you well!

Hugsss
sabby

[selfy]

mckell given my status in life i have no authority to preach on legal stuff, blah blah blah. you have got some tricky situation there!
imo, the best would be to leave. but you gave some good reasons for not leaving. in any other situation i would suggest it.
idk that is up to you.
BUT remember, if he is a true narcissist, he will not change his opinion. to do that would be like suicide, basically he would be undermining all his security.
to admit he is wrong, is to come to terms with his insecuritys and they are crap things.
i knew a narcissist once, and one day i blew my top with her. i yelled, and told her that she was manipulative, that she used me and i hated her.
she carried on trying to persuade me i was wrong. but DONT let them, she did all she could, but i was grounded enough to realise my opinion was right, and i needed to get away from her before she hurt me more.
in 15 yrs, i could not change her opinion, or her ways of trying to make me believe the lies she said so that i didnt see what she hated about herself.
it didnt work for me, and i know that these types of people need alot of work and i dont believe u need to bother.
i hope u get a better idea of how u would like to move forward with this.
well wishes
self

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sabau2 said:

In your thinking, you are coming up with many excuses as to not leave your husband at this time.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

You are right sabby I am. You all have been great in helping appraise these excuses. I don't know if he really meets the clinical definition of a narcissist or not, but he certainly demonstrates many of these traits. I know if I leave things are going to get really ugly. There is no doubt here! I will not be dealing with a rational man. He either cannot or will not be able to put the what is in the best interest of our children as a priority.

In the same light I need to make sure that my actions are in the best interest of my children. I just don't know!!! I'm afraid the actions I might take will make things worse for them not better.

For what ever reason I just haven't been able to take the ultimate action yet. I'm hoping that there is good reason for this and that it is not simply because I'm afraid.

[sunrise]

mckell, I am sorry for what you are going through. I am married to a narcissist and am in the process of a divorce. We have been married for 20 years. It took me many years to gain courage to make the break. Especially the last 2 years I have worked really hard in therapy to get this point. It has not been easy. Could you get some support from a therapist, who could help you sort out what you want to do?

I agree, seeking legal advice would be very helpful.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
2) My husband is on disability, I provide for the family. The bottom line, if I left it would cost me more money; in our convoluted justice system I would likely owe him alimony.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Alimony is not forever. How long have you been married? I have been told that alimony is usually not paid for any longer than 1 year for every 3-5 years of marriage. So if your marriage has been 10 years, it might be 2-3 years of alimony, and then done! And if you have most of the custody of the kids, that would figure in, and you might owe no alimony at all. What helps you is that is sounds like, from what you have written about your financial difficulties, that your joint income is not high. This helps you with the alimony. If you don't make much money, you don't pay much alimony. I am hoping that in my divorce I will not take any alimony in our settlement, but instead will take more in the property settlement. Not everyone wants alimony.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
3) My kids are really close with their sisters. I am very close with them as well. Leaving my husband would ultimately negatively impact these relationships. They would likely be torn between their feeling for me, their brothers, and their Dad.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Divorce results in many divided allegiances. So it goes. Just do the best by your kids you can. It is amazing how resilient kids can be. Would it be better to have the kids feel some of the stresses of divided loyalties associated with divorce or the continuing negativity and pain of the current marriage?

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I just don’t see any easy way out at this point. I just don’t want my kids to end up assuming my husband’s negative, everybody owes me personality. The dividing of our family at this point will likely only result in more conflict and negativity, more financial problems, and less love and support for my children.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">You're right, no easy way out but through the pain. Staying with your husband will not help your kids avoid adopting his negative personality traits. They might have a better shot of avoiding the negativity if a split is made. I hope you can get some support. These are not easy questions. A therapist and lawyer might be able to help you sort it out.

Best of luck. Take care.

[sabby]

((((((((((((mckell)))))))))))

I don't envy you, your decision. I have been there myself and it is so very very difficult to make.

One more point I would like to make is this....research research research. Find out where you can find support and help when you and your kids need it. Plan plan plan.....having a plan and knowing where you can turn before you make a break (if that is what you decide to do) will make the whole situation a lot less stressful. One of my mottos is this "Plan for the worst and hope for the best!"

There are plenty of agencies around that help folks like you and your kids when the going gets rough. Make contact with them ahead of time. Get your name and story out there. Network with them on all your options of what to do and where to turn. Remember that knowledge is power.

Best of luck to you and your family. You are in my prayers. Please keep us updated and lean on us when you need to!

Hugsssss
sabby

[AAAAA]

I am so sorry that you are going through this mckell. You seem to have your head on straight, just a bit reluctant to take that last step. Your relationships with your step childrens should not change, they are already familiar with how their father is.

If you are in the states, make an appointment with a divorce lawyer, the first session is usually free. Ask about custody, support etc. I find it hard to believe (but not totally, life is stranger than fiction) that with children you'd have to support him as well.

Good luck.

[chaotic13]

I just had one of those times when the light bulb slowly went on and now I am feeling really stupid but kind of OK at the same time.

I went to therapy today and at some point I spoke about the above situation. And T said in kind of a matter of fact way, 'Sounds like your husband is really good at making people feel bad.' '"When you feel bad, get off his back, and he does what he wants.' He gets what he wants and you ... your wants are pushed aside.
Bastard...

[Sultrysorrow]

Put your foot down! That kind of B.S. shouldn't be tolerated by anyone. Unless they're getting paid to deal with it everyday

[chaotic13]

OMG even though I now realize his manipulations I still doubt myself! How did I get here? It is like I can see when others are being taken advantage of and belittled but am blind when it is happening to me. I have just allowed myself to be fed %#@&#!, accepted it, and in some sick way even thought that I deserved it. Even now I think of myself as an awful person because I want close friends, to advance my career, and tell him to keep his hands off me after I hear his %#@&#! day in and day out. I’m questioning if he is deliberately taking advantage of me or if I am overreacting. I feel like crap, why was I susceptible? Why am I still here? Anger, guilt, disgust, what the heck is wrong with me?

I know I need to turn this around. I'm sure I'll land on my feet, I always have. I’m just venting here because I have no where else to vent. Sorry

[sunrise]

McKell, this is a book I found useful in understanding my relationship:
The Verbally Abusive Relationship: how to recognize it and how to respond by Patricia Evans.
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Are you now, or have you ever been, in relationships with family, friends, or mates who have been verbally abusive? Is your happiness with someone you love continually threatened by interactions that continually undermine your self-esteem? Do you feel trapped in a relationship that keeps decaying in a downward spiral of overt or passive-aggressive abuse?

If so, this book could be your life raft, either carrying you toward repair of the existing relationship or the effects of past relationships or offering liberation from your current confusion. Its practical approach can help clear your head and possibly change your life.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I learned a lot from this book. It was like reading the story of my 20 year marriage. Maybe you might find some insights there too.

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sunrise said:
The Verbally Abusive Relationship: how to recognize it and how to respond by Patricia Evans.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

SUNRISE, Thanks for the support. I purchased this book today and just started it. I found the following statements on the first page of the introduction spoke to me today. Specially since he has been covertly undermining my healing by telling me how dangerous therapy is, how my T is going to manipulate me, take our children, destroy our family,etc..

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
"If your have been verbally abused, you have been told in subtle, and not-so-subtle ways that your perceptions of reality is wrong and that your feelings are wrong. Consequently, you may doubt your own experience and, at the same time, not realize that you are doing so." (Evans,1996)

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

My body is being shredded by the surfacing "shrapnel" Perna described in another post, However, already I've found some solace in the fact that he tried to put me down twice today but I recognized it for what it was and called him on it. I don't know where my marriage is ultimately headed but I definitely feel the tide starting to turn.