[Silk Chaos]

Where to begin...

About a year ago, I met this woman, we'll call her Z. She fit my physical description of "the perfect woman" and I'd quickly learn that she was much more than that.

Z and I became really good friends. She was coming out of an 18 year marriage, and I out of a 15ish year on/off/on relationship. We were both trying to figure ourselves out, what we want in life, who we are, and what makes us happy. We both were also opening our own businesses. Looking back, it sounds kinda like the perfect storm. I think that we both knew it at the time even.

Over the past year, we have had very deep, intimate conversations about who we are, where we've been, what we've experienced that has shaped who we are today, our fears, our goals, and about everything else imaginable. We both feel super comfortable with one another, trust as much as we can, and are as open as we can be.

Looking back, it sounds kinda like the perfect storm. I think that we both knew it at the time even.

We were friends. I flirted with her. I eventually developed feelings for her, and told her. We remained friends. At some point, she decided that she wanted to take things to the next level and we became FWB. My feelings grew deeper, unbeknown to me, so did hers. We acted like the perfect little couple without any labels or commitment. We were both having fun and enjoying it.

I wanted more, and was doing my best to respect where she was emotionally. I would push at times, and she'd remind me that we are just friends. Other times, we would be talking and she'd have to remind herself, out loud, that we are just friends.

We've both dated and had sex with others. Our agreement is that we won't talk about it because each acknowledges how much it would hurt to know.

One night, at a bar, after too much drinking, I made out with a woman that Z had introduced to me. (Side note, a week before, Z had told me that I was free to measure this woman's breasts because I make specialty clothing...Z said that she doesn't get upset about things like that because it's work...we're just friends remember?) I, honestly, have no recollection of making out with this woman.

The next day, Z and I go back to the same bar, and the bartender tells Z about my antics the night before. Z remained very calm, and a few minutes later told me that she had a date that night and one the night before. I found myself very angry and jealous. I know...I know...I had no right to be.

This led to a month of turmoil and strife between Z and me. She was extremely closed and distant, and I was sending short novels via text message about how much I loved her and how I could never be the type of friend that she wanted me to be. We finally talk, in depth, about all of it. She reveals that she has feelings for me as well, but is just scared and really wants to be friends - good, close, friends - until she figures herself out. Then we can see what happens.

Since that time, and this is the important part, I just can't shake the jealousy. I find myself getting jealous about things that are none of my business, her hanging out with friends, and even inventing unrealistic scenarios in my head. If I keep this up, one of us is going to have no choice but to terminate the friendship and completely walk away.

I thought that I had accepted that we are just friends. I have tried to just focus on my life, and have even asked other women out. I am trying to shift my focus off Z.

I know very well that my own feelings of insecurity and unworthiness are controlling most of my emotions. I have a deep fear of losing her, not of being alone or abandoned, but of losing her specifically. All the time, I know that if I continue to allow my emotions to control that I will ultimately push her away.

The struggle is real...

[sarahsweets]

Originally Posted by Silk Chaos

We were friends. I flirted with her. I eventually developed feelings for her, and told her. We remained friends. At some point, she decided that she wanted to take things to the next level and we became FWB. My feelings grew deeper, unbeknown to me, so did hers. We acted like the perfect little couple without any labels or commitment. We were both having fun and enjoying it.

I am so not a fan of FWB. I feel like if you are willing to do all the things a couple would do including sex then why not just be a couple. I think this type of relationship does more harm than good. Its almost a guarantee that one person is going to feel emotionally attached to the other person- even love them. Then that person is left with a decision: tell the friend they are in love and have feelings for them-risking the whole relationship OR say nothing and suffer.

We've both dated and had sex with others. Our agreement is that we won't talk about it because each acknowledges how much it would hurt to know.

If you both acknowledge it would hurt the other person to share details then...isnt that an indication that the relationship is changing?

The next day, Z and I go back to the same bar, and the bartender tells Z about my antics the night before. Z remained very calm, and a few minutes later told me that she had a date that night and one the night before. I found myself very angry and jealous. I know...I know...I had no right to be.

No disrespect meant but is it at all possible she just said that because she was hurt? I am not saying she is a liar but is it a form of self protection?

This led to a month of turmoil and strife between Z and me. She was extremely closed and distant, and I was sending short novels via text message about how much I loved her and how I could never be the type of friend that she wanted me to be. We finally talk, in depth, about all of it. She reveals that she has feelings for me as well, but is just scared and really wants to be friends - good, close, friends - until she figures herself out. Then we can see what happens.

In no way is this a good idea or reasonable. You have feelings for her and she says she has feelings for you so- why the avoidance? Are you at all bummed that she wont match your feelings and just have the relationship? Because it sounds like she is either very scared, very unsure or very confused. You do not want to be sleeping with a confused person. it will not help her and its definitely not gonna help you.

Since that time, and this is the important part, I just can't shake the jealousy. I find myself getting jealous about things that are none of my business, her hanging out with friends, and even inventing unrealistic scenarios in my head. If I keep this up, one of us is going to have no choice but to terminate the friendship and completely walk away.

In my personal opinion I would terminate the friendship unless she agrees to give an official relationship a try. i do not know what is going on in her mind but now its affecting you emotionally. Its not making you feel good and it isnt healthy for either of you. You are doing a disservice to her by engaging in this intimate relationship/not relationship. She should be able to move on and so should you. Unless you both want to be together it sounds like a recipe for pain. And Jealousy is never good. No good can come of it. Its sort of like self punishment. You love her and want her to love you and she wont agree to love you so your heart just breaks inside and you start wondering who else may have her heart if not you.

I thought that I had accepted that we are just friends. I have tried to just focus on my life, and have even asked other women out. I am trying to shift my focus off Z.

I know very well that my own feelings of insecurity and unworthiness are controlling most of my emotions. I have a deep fear of losing her, not of being alone or abandoned, but of losing her specifically. All the time, I know that if I continue to allow my emotions to control that I will ultimately push her away.

Do not be hard on yourself. These feelings you are having IMO are completely justified and understandable. How else are you supposed to feel? i think having a serious talk with her about wanting a relationship would be a good idea and if she doesnt want to be prepared to walk away.

[s4ndm4n2006]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

I am so not a fan of FWB. I feel like if you are willing to do all the things a couple would do including sex then why not just be a couple. I think this type of relationship does more harm than good. Its almost a guarantee that one person is going to feel emotionally attached to the other person- even love them. Then that person is left with a decision: tell the friend they are in love and have feelings for them-risking the whole relationship OR say nothing and suffer.
If you both acknowledge it would hurt the other person to share details then...isnt that an indication that the relationship is changing?

No disrespect meant but is it at all possible she just said that because she was hurt? I am not saying she is a liar but is it a form of self protection?

In no way is this a good idea or reasonable. You have feelings for her and she says she has feelings for you so- why the avoidance? Are you at all bummed that she wont match your feelings and just have the relationship? Because it sounds like she is either very scared, very unsure or very confused. You do not want to be sleeping with a confused person. it will not help her and its definitely not gonna help you.

In my personal opinion I would terminate the friendship unless she agrees to give an official relationship a try. i do not know what is going on in her mind but now its affecting you emotionally. Its not making you feel good and it isnt healthy for either of you. You are doing a disservice to her by engaging in this intimate relationship/not relationship. She should be able to move on and so should you. Unless you both want to be together it sounds like a recipe for pain. And Jealousy is never good. No good can come of it. Its sort of like self punishment. You love her and want her to love you and she wont agree to love you so your heart just breaks inside and you start wondering who else may have her heart if not you.

I thought that I had accepted that we are just friends. I have tried to just focus on my life, and have even asked other women out. I am trying to shift my focus off Z.

Do not be hard on yourself. These feelings you are having IMO are completely justified and understandable. How else are you supposed to feel? i think having a serious talk with her about wanting a relationship would be a good idea and if she doesnt want to be prepared to walk away.

I was going to reply... then you stole my thunder and said pretty much everything I would like to have said. I agree completely.

[MickeyCheeky]

I'm so sorry you're hurting so much, Silk Chaos I understand your pain. It's a tough situation to be in. I think it's admirable that you want to give her own time and space, but I wonder how much can you resist being put "on hold" like that. I'm afraid I must agree with what all the others have already wisely said better than i ever could. If she had told you that she wasn't interested in a relationship, at least you could have been able to move on. But this way seems pretty painful. I don't want you to rush her, but I believe you should talk to her about this and see how it goes from there. Make her understand that your feelings are important as well in this situation. I believe you need closure of some sort, positive or negative. If you don't want to talk to her about this, I'd suggest to just avoid contact with her of any kind. Maybe she'll call you back one day, but try not to think about it. Just try to focus on yourself. I know it's not easy, especially since you love her so much. But I believe it's the only compromise you can find if you want to keep things open with her and still be able to move on. The final decision is up to you. I hope your pain will pass soon. You don't deserve to suffer like this. Remember that we're here for you if you need it. Feel free to PM me anytime. Let me know if I can do something to help you. Wish you good luck! Let us know how it goes. I'm so sorry you and her are going through all of this, Silk Chaos

[Bill3]

I also agree completely with what sarahsweets said.

[~Christina]

You two are not teenagers, both been around the block ... that said ... you guys have been friends a long time. But you desire more and if she’s not interested in more than for your own well being cut the ties as much as that will hurt.

[Silk Chaos]

I agree with everything that you all have said. I've tried to walk away several times. I keep running back. Z and I have talked at length about all of this. She is very clear about my feelings and I accept what she has told me.

Last night, I decided that I'm tired of being hurt by her. I've asked her to please stop flirting and giving me hope that there could be more if she just wants to be friends. She hasn't done that, so I must now enforce my boundaries. I can't expect her to respect me if I don't respect myself.

Yes, it hurts, but I know that this hurt is temporary whereas my keeping myself in the situation will only prolong the hurt.

It's funny, I came here hoping to just find a place to vent my frustrations, but now find myself posting as a place to vent my pain. Life is what it is though.

Thank you all for reading my long post and replying.

[Silk Chaos]

Working in the same building as Z is not a lot of fun.

She came into work and acted like nothing happened or was said. I didn't respond how I normally would and she got angry. I guess that can be expected. She isn't getting what she wants from me.

[Bill3]

Good job Silk Chaos!

[Open Eyes]

What stands out to me is that she was already in an committed 18 year relationship. She probably isn't ready to get into another committed relationship again yet. She sounds like she enjoyed having someone to talk to and vent to and mull over what direction she may take in her life, not sure what she really wanted.

You might have shared too much of your history, and what stands out to me is that you had an on and off relationship for 15 years, never married, never really fully committed? She heard this you know. And as you mentioned neither of you knew what you wanted either. I am wondering if you have a pattern you don't realize where you get attached, break away, get attached again and break away. Something to stop and think about that you might not realize about yourself.

Sorry you're in this tough situation Silk Chaos. How does the work thing play out? You don't actually do the same job but you are in the same building? Might it be worth it or even possible to re-locate your work to give yourself a decent chance of having space and distance from Z? When a person it trying to move on from someone, the hardest thing is when they have to keep seeing that person on a regular basis. Makes it harder for your brain to switch to a new gear.

I am glad that you are finding PC helpful. Other types of connections could be invaluable to you as you navigate this transition. Perhaps you could even try a volunteering opportunity. Even one day a month. It can really help with feelings of loneliness or disappointment.

With regard to Z, perhaps you could think about the situation as having tried something and learned that it didn't work for you and your life goals. You didn't actually do anything wrong. You are a person of substance seeking attachment in your life. No shame in that including when it doesn't work out as hoped. I wish you peace, Silk Chaos. (Great profile name)

[Silk Chaos]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

What stands out to me is that she was already in an committed 18 year relationship. She probably isn't ready to get into another committed relationship again yet. She sounds like she enjoyed having someone to talk to and vent to and mull over what direction she may take in her life, not sure what she really wanted.

Yep, that is completely correct.

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

You might have shared too much of your history, and what stands out to me is that you had an on and off relationship for 15 years, never married, never really fully committed?

Nah, I have 2 ex-wives. Both cheated on me. The second left me for some guy she met in an online game. We talk these days. She doesn't even remember the guy's name now.

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

I am wondering if you have a pattern you don't realize where you get attached, break away, get attached again and break away. Something to stop and think about that you might not realize about yourself.

I do have a pattern, yes, but that's not what it is. It stems from codependency, and something that I've been working on in counseling for a while now. Because I'm C-PTSD, I have a history of the push/pull dynamic. I get scared, I push people away trying to feel safe, that scares me more, and I pull them back.

[Silk Chaos]

Thank you SilverTrees.

We just work in the same office building, but different suites. As an interesting aside, her ex-husband's office is right across the hall from mine. It must be incredibly uncomfortable for the two of them. He won't even look me in the eyes as we pass one another - that's a different discussion though.

My boss is going into semi-retirement in a few months, so the office will be closing and I won't be in the building anymore. I just need to deal with things until then.

I have been giving thought to volunteering a lot lately. Mostly because it is a way to meet people and hopefully develop new friendships. That's part of my problem, I don't have a lot of friends or people to talk to or do things with.

I definitely think of all of this as a learning experience. Mostly, I've learned that I need stronger boundaries and to respect myself more.

So, she wants to talk today and see if we can work things out to salvage the friendship. I wish that I was more shocked by this, but I'm not. Of course she wants the friendship, it was beneficial to her. It doesn't hurt her. She gains from it. So, this is where I have to think about and respect myself enough not to allow myself to remain in a hurtful situation. That is going to be super tough for me because I've never learned to do anything other than give people what they want.

Originally Posted by Silk Chaos

Thank you SilverTrees.

We just work in the same office building, but different suites. As an interesting aside, her ex-husband's office is right across the hall from mine. It must be incredibly uncomfortable for the two of them. He won't even look me in the eyes as we pass one another - that's a different discussion though.

My boss is going into semi-retirement in a few months, so the office will be closing and I won't be in the building anymore. I just need to deal with things until then.

I have been giving thought to volunteering a lot lately. Mostly because it is a way to meet people and hopefully develop new friendships. That's part of my problem, I don't have a lot of friends or people to talk to or do things with.

I definitely think of all of this as a learning experience. Mostly, I've learned that I need stronger boundaries and to respect myself more.

So, she wants to talk today and see if we can work things out to salvage the friendship. I wish that I was more shocked by this, but I'm not. Of course she wants the friendship, it was beneficial to her. It doesn't hurt her. She gains from it. So, this is where I have to think about and respect myself enough not to allow myself to remain in a hurtful situation. That is going to be super tough for me because I've never learned to do anything other than give people what they want.

Thank you for sharing Silk Chaos. I wish you peace as you navigate the next few months. Hopefully it helps to know there's an end in sight with the building situation.

As for Z wanting to talk, I feel that you have two options. You could simply say: "No thank you. I don't feel there's anything left for us to talk about."
Or you can meet and hear her out and then simply wish her peace for the future. The first option would likely be easier for you to hold your ground particularly since you mentioned a strong tendency to want to please people.

Another thought: what is friendship? How would you define it? Think of an ideal friendship between two people...what happens, what doesn't happen etc You may even like to make a list on paper. Then compare that list with the dynamic between yourself and Z. I think that may help you to clarify things in your mind.

I think it's quite likely that if you and Z continue to meet and talk and interact, it would not exactly be a friendship....perhaps not a healthy one anyway. Does that make sense? Zero judgment here. Just trying to support you and help you think it through.

I would discourage you from trying to interpret Z's internal state and motivations. We really can't know what is in another person's mind or soul. And endeavoring to try to determine that often just burns our energy and does not bring us peace. Keep bringing your focus back to you and your needs for a happy and healthy life. She will figure out her own life in her own way. You can quietly wish her well without getting into her "stuff" if you see what I mean. The more you strengthen your sense of Self (volunteering, making new friends, spending time alone) the less of a pull you'll feel toward Z.

Good luck!

[Silk Chaos]

Oh, man, spending time by myself is part of my problem. I spend way too much without interacting with others. I sit in my office all day without seeing anyone for hours, and then I go hope and work on my fledgling business in silence for hours.

I really don't try to figure out what is on Z's mind. I tend to ask her questions rather than guessing.

I did talk to her today and told her that we can't have a friendship because of my feelings for her. It never would actually be a friendship under these conditions. She struggled with that idea. So, I asked her how she would feel if the situation were reversed. She acknowledged how hard and hurtful it would be. She also disclosed that she's been on the other side of this type of situation and it did hurt her badly.

All of this is happening at a particularly bad time because I have been feeling completely worthless and unlovable. The stuff with Z has just amplified it. I do understand that my feeling as I have been has been a contributing factor in how things have played out with her, and her actions have been a contributing factor to how I have been feeling.

Originally Posted by Silk Chaos

Oh, man, spending time by myself is part of my problem. I spend way too much without interacting with others. I sit in my office all day without seeing anyone for hours, and then I go hope and work on my fledgling business in silence for hours.

I really don't try to figure out what is on Z's mind. I tend to ask her questions rather than guessing.

I did talk to her today and told her that we can't have a friendship because of my feelings for her. It never would actually be a friendship under these conditions. She struggled with that idea. So, I asked her how she would feel if the situation were reversed. She acknowledged how hard and hurtful it would be. She also disclosed that she's been on the other side of this type of situation and it did hurt her badly.

All of this is happening at a particularly bad time because I have been feeling completely worthless and unlovable. The stuff with Z has just amplified it. I do understand that my feeling as I have been has been a contributing factor in how things have played out with her, and her actions have been a contributing factor to how I have been feeling.

I know it may not feel like it right now because you are in a lot of pain, Silk Chaos, but you are on the right track! Two important insights you identified. You spend too much time alone...you can change that. Second, you are feeling worthless and unlovable. That's so tough! Such a heavy weight to carry around. I am so sorry you feel that way What do you suppose could help you to feel worthy and lovable?

[Silk Chaos]

My cognitive mind tells me that the only thing that can make me feel worthy and lovable is me. When I see my worth and lovableness, and have self-respect, things are different.

While chatting with Z and other friends tonight, I came to the realization that I respond to her differently...in ways that I would not normally, or that I want to...because so much of what I experience with her is reminiscent of my past. That's why I have been so comfortable with her. It is also why it hurts so much and has become so important to me. I suspect that my counselor would tell me that my seeking Z's attention is a substitute for seeking the attention from my mother that I never received.

Now, I just need to figure out how I tell her (and make it stick) that I have no desire to be friends with her. Man, I hate this!

Originally Posted by Silk Chaos

My cognitive mind tells me that the only thing that can make me feel worthy and lovable is me. When I see my worth and lovableness, and have self-respect, things are different.

While chatting with Z and other friends tonight, I came to the realization that I respond to her differently...in ways that I would not normally, or that I want to...because so much of what I experience with her is reminiscent of my past. That's why I have been so comfortable with her. It is also why it hurts so much and has become so important to me. I suspect that my counselor would tell me that my seeking Z's attention is a substitute for seeking the attention from my mother that I never received.

Now, I just need to figure out how I tell her (and make it stick) that I have no desire to be friends with her. Man, I hate this!

So sorry that you're in this struggle. You don't need to "make it stick." You only need to say it once and then walk away. "Making it stick" is up to Z in her own way.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by how you interact with Z. But I think that will be helpful for you to explore. I also think there may have been a reason for you meeting her. People come into our lives for all sorts of reasons. I wonder why Z came into yours Silk Chaos.

[Silk Chaos]

Originally Posted by SilverTrees

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by how you interact with Z. But I think that will be helpful for you to explore. I also think there may have been a reason for you meeting her. People come into our lives for all sorts of reasons. I wonder why Z came into yours Silk Chaos.

Last night I ended up sending her a text message telling her that I don't like how she treats me and to please just stay away from me. So far she has accommodated that request.

How I interact? hhhmmm....I'm not sure how to answer that. I am friendly and loving toward her. I put with her swapping between friends and more than friends back to friends for over a year now. I gave a lot of my time and energy to her, so much that it was a detriment to me. I started to feel like Steve Urkel from Family Matters. I accepted her poor treatment, praised her, and ran back for more.

Yeah, I was definitely hoping for caring and nurturing from someone I found gorgeous and was willing to accept the treatment to get it.

She could have come into my life to help me learn that lesson. I am not sure.

I feel that I came into hers to help her through her divorce. Things were great between us until the decree was signed.

[Silk Chaos]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

No disrespect meant but is it at all possible she just said that because she was hurt? I am not saying she is a liar but is it a form of self protection?

The other day, I asked her if there has been any follow-up to the date, has she heard from him again, etc. She had no clue what I was talking about and even went so far as to tell me that her friend never set her up with anyone. That's how she told me that she connected with the guy...the friend setting her up. After a brief moment of me looking at her dumbfounded, she suddenly remembered....