[Icedgem]

My mother used to stonewall me a lot when I was a child. She still does now I'm an adult. I have to guess why she's mad and even if I guess correctly she will say she's fine.

As an adult I have a tendency to think people are mad at me or annoyed at me if I feel any sort of shift or unpleasant atmosphere and run around trying to please them. Obviously I now realize this has potentially stemmed from my mother's stonewalling. How can I get past this?

[TishaBuv]

Setting Emotional Boundaries: Stop Taking on Other People's Feelings
Here is just one of many helpful articles that address the subject of setting boundaries.

It sounds like you have been conditioned to be a people pleaser.

[Open Eyes]

First it’s a good thing you are noticing this challenge. Unfortunately this is something that can be handed down and it’s one of those unhealthy methods of parenting a child. It’s stemming from poor communication skills instead of actively engaging the child.

It’s basically telling a child “I am not going to pay attention to you unless you give me what “I” want”. It instills the wrong message in a child. You are right in how this teaches people pleasing and codependency. Yet it can also create a narcissist too.

[eskielover]

Not everyone responds to stonewalling in the same way. I was never a people pleaser no matter how much my mom tried to get me to be with her actions. My reaction to when she became angry was to leave her totally alone. She always came crawling back as if nothing ever happened. Good thing, she never successfully manipulated me with her behaviors. It gave her time to think about what she did while I went on with my life never reinforcing her behaviors.

I have no idea how I ever learned that skill given the dysfunctional parents I had

[Bill3]

How can I get past this?

I suggest trying a mindfulness technique that was very helpful to me.

Each time you notice that feeling of "unpleasant atmosphere", nonjudgmentally say to yourself "This feeling is what I am learning to not respond to." If you didn't notice the feeling until later, then nonjudgmentally say to yourself "That feeling was what I am learning not to respond to."

Each time you find yourself running around to please someone, nonjudgmentally say to yourself "This is what I need to stop doing." Then take a moment to think nonjudgmentally about the moment where you went off course, and how you wish you had handled things at that moment.

By being nonjudgmentally aware of responses that you wish to change, you can gradually come to change the way you respond to the "unpleasant atmosphere" cues.

Being nonjudgmental about yourself is very important. You were taught to do something one way, now you wish to learn to do it another way. You can learn the new way--over time.

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by Bill3

I suggest trying a mindfulness technique that was very helpful to me.

Each time you notice that feeling of "unpleasant atmosphere", nonjudgmentally say to yourself "This feeling is what I am learning to not respond to." If you didn't notice the feeling until later, then nonjudgmentally say to yourself "That feeling was what I am learning not to respond to."

Each time you find yourself running around to please someone, nonjudgmentally say to yourself "This is what I need to stop doing." Then take a moment to think nonjudgmentally about the moment where you went off course, and how you wish you had handled things at that moment.

By being nonjudgmentally aware of responses that you wish to change, you can gradually come to change the way you respond to the "unpleasant atmosphere" cues.

Being nonjudgmental about yourself is very important. You were taught to do something one way, now you wish to learn to do it another way. You can learn the new way--over time.

I like this, I thought I can't do mindfulness but if this is mindfulness, I've found this technique useful before, sometimes. Do you have a way to do this when emotions are still too repressed? (Too extreme or ignored for too long so they need to be repressed by the brain) Do you think it can speed up the process of those emotions, feelings coming back from repression?

Maybe that's a very different topic though. Maybe leads too far from this thread. You just made me wonder

[RoxanneToto]

This thread is very helpful, I’m thinking I might print some of it because while I don’t have too many people trying to manipulate me (thankfully) I definitely have experienced similar in the past and found it difficult to reconcile with.

[eskielover]

@Bill3, yes, mindfulness is one of the best tools I ever learned in my 2 intense years of DBT.

@Alive99....I knew I was feeling intense anger but for me, my other feelings & reasons for those feelings were repressed more because I didn't have the words to express them. One day I went to my weekly therapy appointment & my T asked how I was feeling. All I could say was "ugh, just ugh!" She then handed me 3 pages with a list of feelings words for me to check off the ones that related to what I was experiencing. That was my first step to breakthrough. The next step I took on my own was to put words to the feelings as to what was their cause. That broke the word barrier for me & from that point we continues to work through how I was really feeling. That was about 7 years ago & now when I am feeling overloaded, I step back & am able to analize what I am feeling & exactly why.

Mindfulness helped me do important changes in my coping skills & also be more aware of how my environment (or more, an external environment that keeps hitting me) if effecting me & how I am responding to it & what I can do better to handle it.

[Bill3]

this, I thought I can't do mindfulness but if this is mindfulness, I've found this technique useful before, sometimes. Do you have a way to do this when emotions are still too repressed? (Too extreme or ignored for too long so they need to be repressed by the brain) Do you think it can speed up the process of those emotions, feelings coming back from repression?

In this case you can still observe any unwanted behaviors and nonjudgmentally say to yourself, "This is what I need to stop doing" and think nonjudgmentally about the moment where you went off course, and how you wish you had handled things at that moment (like a curious scientist, without judging yourself).

Also, you could ask yourself "What feelings might I have been having at that moment where I went off course?" eskielover's idea can be really helpful, a list of emotions to consider might help you discern what you were feeling in that moment.

If not, so be it, don't judge yourself, just continue to nonjudgmentally observe your behavior. Each time you observe unwanted behavior, identify the moment you went off course, figure out what you could have done differently, and try to identify what you were feeling in that moment (using eskielover's list idea).

Once you have identified relevant feelings, then you can start to be on the lookout for them, as in my previous post.

[TishaBuv]

This is great advice and I am going to try to do it more. I recently had success with a situation where someone was attempting to manipulate me. My h helped by telling me to pause by saying I’d call back later, we were ‘busy’. I then reflected on the emotions I was feeling. I was able to respond ‘no’ in a healthy boundary way without falling into the usual trap. Although the incident was handled well and I am proud, though, I still had an emotional downward spiral the next day. But, I have been experiencing some severe stuff and don’t let me dissuade you, OP. . But, like Bill says, each time things will get easier. This is encouraging.

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by eskielover

@Alive99....I knew I was feeling intense anger but for me, my other feelings & reasons for those feelings were repressed more because I didn't have the words to express them. One day I went to my weekly therapy appointment & my T asked how I was feeling. All I could say was "ugh, just ugh!" She then handed me 3 pages with a list of feelings words for me to check off the ones that related to what I was experiencing. That was my first step to breakthrough. The next step I took on my own was to put words to the feelings as to what was their cause. That broke the word barrier for me & from that point we continues to work through how I was really feeling. That was about 7 years ago & now when I am feeling overloaded, I step back & am able to analize what I am feeling & exactly why.

Mindfulness helped me do important changes in my coping skills & also be more aware of how my environment (or more, an external environment that keeps hitting me) if effecting me & how I am responding to it & what I can do better to handle it.

Thanks for your notes.

In my case, I don't feel intense anger or any anger even. If I was in that phase of processing where all I felt was intense anger, I'd already be on the way to finding what to do about it. I can handle anger, but when I don't even have that about certain things, that's when I have issues with processing, mindfulness, etc etc.

Is anyone familiar with that issue of, going from full detachment phase to anger phase in processing?

I've been given various emotion word lists by therapists, so yes, I know what you mean by that technique. When you were given the word list, did you instantly manage to tune into what you felt?

I've been working on getting to that step of even tuning in by various techniques, for nearly ten years by now. I've made headway, I've found quite some emotions, but certainly not all of them, and the problematic ones is what I meant above.

You mention feeling overloaded. For me it just shuts everything off, when the overload mix relates to the trauma emotions. So back to first step.

Interestingly enough, the way I interpret mindfulness and nonjudgmentality here for myself, it has nothing to do with my external environment. It has everything to do with being aware of the internal environment (invisible to others, emotions, gut feelings, whatever deep things).

I always interpreted mindfulness that way for some reason. I don't know why.

If you (or anyone else) are at all interested in neuroscience stuff... I believe it's what's called the default mode network (the neural networks responsible for getting into that internal environment), rather than the task positive network (which deals with the external environment). They are at odds with each other by default, i.e hard to keep both active together (not sure if at all possible).

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by Bill3

In this case you can still observe any unwanted behaviors and nonjudgmentally say to yourself, "This is what I need to stop doing" and think nonjudgmentally about the moment where you went off course, and how you wish you had handled things at that moment (like a curious scientist, without judging yourself).

Also, you could ask yourself "What feelings might I have been having at that moment where I went off course?" eskielover's idea can be really helpful, a list of emotions to consider might help you discern what you were feeling in that moment.

If not, so be it, don't judge yourself, just continue to nonjudgmentally observe your behavior. Each time you observe unwanted behavior, identify the moment you went off course, figure out what you could have done differently, and try to identify what you were feeling in that moment (using eskielover's list idea).

Once you have identified relevant feelings, then you can start to be on the lookout for them, as in my previous post.

Thanks for your reply. Well in my case the behaviour is a lack of behaviour, i.e complete shutdown when the emotions are so repressed. It's kind of hard to observe anything about that. And it does cause issues when I'm unable to function due to it.

Instead, what I'm trying to observe really is my insides, so it's about internal observations on the emotions inside me, really. If you have suggestions for that type of observing, I would be very interested.

But. I was reading a book today on trauma - Victoria M. Follette PhD, Josef I. Ruzek PhD: Cognitive-behavioral therapies for trauma. I do recommend this to people. It has good, clear explanations of CBT ideas, reasonings, illustrations, case studies, real discussions with patients.


CBT is something that comes easily to me but with the problematic things, my brain is unable to send the rational thoughts to my repressed emotions so what I tried to do was, I picked up a few more CBT techniques from this book and then I tried to be like, imagining that I am reassuring those repressed emotions by showing them these CBT techniques, because some of the stuff I read in the book (patient examples) was very validating, and then I was able to be like... maybe I had the nonjudgmental mindfulness again in the way I interpret it. And then I was able to get more communication working with the emotional side of my brain... I processed more.

I have such a hard time with CBT though when it comes to these repressed emotions because I don't even have ANTs, I repress the emotions so much, and CBT is based on ANTs. Ie. the automatic negative thoughts that are emotion based and not rational thinking.

So, it's really tricky to get all that working. The communication between rational and emotional side, or something like that.

But this thread helped me to reflect on it all more.

So yes, what I did today was, I tried to find more ways of working with my own emotions. I tried to initiate this with this idea of mindfulness/nonjudgmentality. And then I try to work with myself on extracting the negative emotions and the messages, beliefs, then find the positive messages in a catharsis while doing CBT. And while trying to keep up emotional imagination as well (hard for me). And then I can base more of the rational thinking on that...

I don't know, this probably is a very personal technique to try and work with emotions. But the book is good

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

This is great advice and I am going to try to do it more. I recently had success with a situation where someone was attempting to manipulate me. My h helped by telling me to pause by saying I’d call back later, we were ‘busy’. I then reflected on the emotions I was feeling. I was able to respond ‘no’ in a healthy boundary way without falling into the usual trap. Although the incident was handled well and I am proud, though, I still had an emotional downward spiral the next day. But, I have been experiencing some severe stuff and don’t let me dissuade you, OP. . But, like Bill says, each time things will get easier. This is encouraging.

Yes. You describe all this so well. Yes, you can still have a downward spiral like that but with practice, it can last less and less and you can come back up from it sooner and sooner. I wish you luck with it.

[eskielover]

Great definition of stonewalling

What Is Stonewalling?

[eskielover]

I realize that my EX has been stonewalling all the lawyers I have had filing suit against him. He hasn't responded to any of them to try to get what he wants for as long as he can.....though this is about to bite him in the rear

[Bill3]

Well in my case the behaviour is a lack of behaviour, i.e complete shutdown when the emotions are so repressed. It's kind of hard to observe anything about that.

To me, mindfulness here does have something to observe: the state of blockedness, the shutdown itself. A mindful approach would be to accept that at this moment, I am completely blocked, nonfunctional: let me sit with that, look at it carefully, try see what it is all about, have a "curious scientist" mentality about it, see if it changes at all, even in a tiny way, day to day. Accept and examine.

Instead, what I'm trying to observe really is my insides, so it's about internal observations on the emotions inside me, really.

To me, this is sort of a non-mindfulness approach. Your mind is saying "You can't have access to these right now", and you are saying "But that's what I want, I am going to try to figure out a way in anyways." A mindful approach, I think, would be to accept that the emotions are not available atm and be mindful of whatever is available...maybe a rigidity, a tightness, an unyieldingness, idk, maybe even a sense of self-judgment or helplessness perhaps?:

I don't even have ANTs, I repress the emotions so much, and CBT is based on ANTs.

In short: if one wants to explore mindfulness-based approaches, there is always something one can be mindful of.

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by eskielover

I realize that my EX has been stonewalling all the lawyers I have had filing suit against him. He hasn't responded to any of them to try to get what he wants for as long as he can.....though this is about to bite him in the rear

That’s a common tactic in lawsuits. He with the most money, time, and endurance wins. Sadly, only the lawyers win.

Sorry for going off topic on this thread and hang in there Eskie!

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by Bill3

To me, mindfulness here does have something to observe: the state of blockedness, the shutdown itself. A mindful approach would be to accept that at this moment, I am completely blocked, nonfunctional: let me sit with that, look at it carefully, try see what it is all about, have a "curious scientist" mentality about it, see if it changes at all, even in a tiny way, day to day. Accept and examine.

There is one issue with just accepting it as is, and that is that it gets in the way of earning a living, and being functional at all. I don't know if anyone can accept that easily.

To me, this is sort of a non-mindfulness approach. Your mind is saying "You can't have access to these right now", and you are saying "But that's what I want, I am going to try to figure out a way in anyways."

I don't know what I posted that sounded like this. I don't believe that "I'm going to try to figure out a way in anyways". I'm far too skeptical for that. Instead, what I do *want* is, I just want to be functional and live my life again like I used to.

A mindful approach, I think, would be to accept that the emotions are not available atm and be mindful of whatever is available...maybe a rigidity, a tightness, an unyieldingness, idk, maybe even a sense of self-judgment or helplessness perhaps?:

That's the thing, I don't know if anything's available, it's a vague shutdown is all I know about. Or stonewall. A therapist did even call it a wall...that she can't get through to me.

The "atm" is a bit long to call it "atm". It's long hours every day and has been so for years. It makes it harder to just accept, too.

(Also tbh I'm going to modify my question I had earlier.... how to go from detachment to the anger phase.....or just to have vitality, energy again. It's more like, how to go to that phase without it taking long hours and then it hurting my muscles, and making them sore, lolol)

In short: if one wants to explore mindfulness-based approaches, there is always something one can be mindful of.

Yeah, I just don't know if you can just relax mindfully about the issue like I described it above.

I don't know if even a yogi can do that. Maybe if they are fed anyway without having to earn a living etc. Maybe if they are okay with not being able to function at all.....having lost their old self and everything.

That really is hard to accept.

(And somehow I can't use even that CBT approach I mentioned for other issues above)

Thanks for letting me write this out.

I won't go off topic again though.

[leomama]

M

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[leomama]

Aca is a really helpful 12 step program and a good therapist helps too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bill3]

There is one issue with just accepting it as is, and that is that it gets in the way of earning a living, and being functional at all. I don't know if anyone can accept that easily.

Mindfulness doesn't mean that I "accept" something problematic in the sense that it is okay, or I that I just have to live with it, or that I should relax with it.

I'm really sorry if I gave an impression akin to that, which perhaps was offensive. I'm sorry.

A basic/paradoxical claim of mindfulness, fwiw, is this:

As long as you are resisting how things are, they can’t be different. And so when you [open up to how they are] and learn to accept things exactly as they are, not because you want them to be so and “accept” they will always be that way, but just because that’s how they are, paradoxically, you allow them to change.

Mindfulness is not about accepting yourself exactly as you are | by Joe Hunt | The Startup | Medium

[eskielover]

Originally Posted by Bill3

Mindfulness doesn't mean that I "accept" something problematic in the sense that it is okay, or I that I just have to live with it, or that I should relax with it.

I'm really sorry if I gave an impression akin to that, which perhaps was offensive. I'm sorry.

A basic/paradoxical claim of mindfulness, fwiw, is this:


Mindfulness is not about accepting yourself exactly as you are | by Joe Hunt | The Startup | Medium

A lot of that sounds like "radical acceptance" in DBT. I finally grasped the concept when I realized that I can accept something the way it is not but that doesn't stop me from working at the necessary changes to improve it when I can or time will change it possibly too

[TishaBuv]

“Mindfulness doesn't mean that I "accept" something problematic in the sense that it is okay, or I that I just have to live with it, or that I should relax with it.”

Say, for example: X does something every time that makes me feel awful. I can accept that I cannot control X, I do have to live with X doing it because they are going to do it, and I can feel the emotions about it that I have without judgment, those emotions are what they are, I feel them, they are natural to me. However, I can react differently to X to try to improve my feelings about what they do. I can change my thinking about it and decide it’s okay, I can relax with feeling bad about what they do without reacting, I can interact differently with X or not act at all.

Have I got this concept?

[Bill3]

However, I can react differently to X to try to improve my feelings about what they do. I can change my thinking about it and decide it’s okay, I can relax with feeling bad about what they do without reacting, I can interact differently with X or not act at all.

I would just add that in my view mindfulness facilitates these steps.

If you are busy hating the behavior, in denial about the behavior, railing against the behavior, then your creative and imaginative energies are diluted or diverted altogether from the possibility of improving the situation, or if that isn't possible, at least coming to some sort of peace with it.

If you can come to acknowledge and examine the behavior carefully and nonjudgmentally, really get to know it, then your creative and imaginative energies are more free and can better function.

[Open Eyes]

It can be a waste of time to insist another person fill your needs and expectations. Expecting things from the outside to fill ones emotional needs will lead to disappointment and emotional disturbances and even mental illness. Often stonewalling takes place when’s person doesn’t know how to communicate in a healthy way. It’s like not raising your hand when a teacher asks a question you don’t know the answer to and praying she doesn’t pick on you to answer. Lol.

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by Bill3

Mindfulness doesn't mean that I "accept" something problematic in the sense that it is okay, or I that I just have to live with it, or that I should relax with it.

I'm really sorry if I gave an impression akin to that, which perhaps was offensive. I'm sorry.

Oh, no worries about that.

A basic/paradoxical claim of mindfulness, fwiw, is this:

Mindfulness is not about accepting yourself exactly as you are | by Joe Hunt | The Startup | Medium

I've read the article, I don't really understand it all though. If this acceptance thingy is like the acceptance phase in grieving (I'm sure you've heard of the grief phases), then I could understand but in that case it requires prior processing before you can get to acceptance phase. It is simply about acceptance of reality. Is that a different kind of acceptance?

(And in grieving too, you have some phases of not accepting things, first you are in denial, then you are angry or you are bargaining... or you can also switch the order of these phases)

Originally Posted by Bill3

I would just add that in my view mindfulness facilitates these steps.

If you are busy hating the behavior, in denial about the behavior, railing against the behavior, then your creative and imaginative energies are diluted or diverted altogether from the possibility of improving the situation, or if that isn't possible, at least coming to some sort of peace with it.

If you can come to acknowledge and examine the behavior carefully and nonjudgmentally, really get to know it, then your creative and imaginative energies are more free and can better function.

I understand this post better, but to me it always just meant controlling emotion to be able to identify the issue properly and then do problem solving. For example in an argument with someone, not letting the drama emotions obscure things or take the argument off track, but staying on track to try and solve the issue in practice.

I understand that the type of acceptance with mindfulness isn't supposed to be about controlling emotion and identifying what's happening to problem solve. To me though, to be able to identify what's happening it definitely requires a kind of acceptance.

It's more like the stoic's acceptance though, because it's about emotional control, through recognising the emotions as getting in the way and then stoically accepting that to be able to control the emotions and then you are able to accept the situation as is because the emotions are no longer in the way and then you can solve the problem that you were reacting to (whether creatively or just simply rationally addressing the problem. For me it's usually just the latter).

I'll quote this about stoicism (after a quick google): "Being stoic is being calm and almost without any emotion. When you're stoic, you don't show what you're feeling and you also accept whatever is happening."

So I do utilise this myself when I can, whenever I notice that emotion is actually getting in the way like that. It does involve acceptance, both about the emotion getting in the way (and then you're able to control it), and about the situation itself "as is" so you can see and understand it clearly after you've removed the emotion obscuring it or messing it up.

Stoicism isn't simply repressing of emotion either, it's just a rational type of control over them, by doing rational emotion management. It does require the ability to access, quickly feel (without sinking in), recognise and identify enough of the emotion to manage it like that. It does not use ANTs (Automatic Negative Thoughts) but remains rational and purposeful about dealing with the emotions, accepting the emotion "as is", and then dealing with it like that. But it does not sit with the emotion either, just puts it under rational control.


I don't know how much that approach shares with mindfulness, in terms of the type of acceptance.



And yeah I can do that one personally except when it comes to the stuff I have the shutdown about. I do suspect that once I feel rationally prepared enough about the whole issue, I'll be able to do the "mindful" initiating to access emotion by feeling like I can reassure my own emotionality and that is where I thought I've used mindfulness sometimes, because it's nonjudgmental too, watching the internal experience, and not trying to rationally control anything about the emotion/feeling (yet, that comes later lol). It's just a reassurance that I am there for my own emotions and that I'll be able to feel and imagine them without getting totally disoriented. Because of the rational "container" built from my preparation, having tried to understand enough of the issue from my psychology readings, previous observations etc. And then I can do CBT and stuff like I described. I've actually tried last afternoon to do it more of it. It requires extra toughness too though if the emotions are strong.


Maybe I'll just end up having my own mix of stoicism, toughness and CBT with mindfulness, lol.



PS: I realise one thing. As you can see, I mention three ways of accepting reality - acceptance after grieving a loss, acceptance of reality in stoicism, and acceptance of the emotions and internal stuff, but all three seem to require some processing or preparation first, even the last one, even if that one seems similar to mindfulness in some way. What I don't understand is how in mindfulness you don't need any preparation. Or maybe you do. By practicing a lot of observing and principles of it first? I don't know.