I need you guys to point out where I can improve myself

The problem with putting two people together who are there for support is that eventfully one of them gets better. Once they get better, the other person's support loses its value. You have to want to be there for very organic reasons besides needs. Because if you're literally checking off the list of things to do in a day with someone, I got to believe that bleeds out on how you interact with them and how they subsequently read you.

If self-happiness is something you are not good at, then you know what you need to do. Because the one thing I DO know about lasting relationships is if you do not have an internal gauge for understanding yourself then you're destined to misread everyone else. Why? Because being with people in a meaningful relationship means you develop not only a understanding of their motivations, moods, shortcomings, strengths, and weaknesses, but how you fit into that and whether they can do the same for you.

You have to give allot of yourself in relationships which means you have to know where you stand with yourself to be there properly for others. What you said in your last update was very telling. You placed all the weight on what you didn't do rather than what the two of you did do. It sounded like you were grading a meet and greet with a rock star. " We got to talk and the autograph, but I never received the photo op I was promised," You see how mechanical that sounds? It felt very transactional. I didn't get any sense there were two people trying to connect in that depiction.

I was merely responding to the question what I would do in diffcult times. Probably I did not express myself sufficiently clear.

It is not that I have a checklist of things that need to be done. I am insecure and long for clarity.

It will take years to build up this self-happiness. Maybe twenty, thirty or more. By the time I can think of starting to live, it will all be over. So basically, this means it is not going to happen for me. Not ever. I am not sure whether I want to endure so much loneliness for so long, knowing that by the time I might feel better about myself it will be too late to connect with somebody.

I tend to become very analytical when I am insecure. And I believe I should get this situation out of my head. That is why I focus on the things that dont happen. Also my anxiety dictates me to think like this.
Also, agreeing on an activity and then deciding you won't go through with it, does not feel very encouraging nor reassuring.

I guess in the end it boils down to accepting myself and feeling better about myself. This seems impossible. It is a harsh verdict. I should start thinking about how I can live out my days in loneliness but even if I somehow manage, every minute of my future will be hard to bear.

What if you don't try to accept yourself, and don't try to feel better about yourself?

Instead, what if you let your thoughts and feelings be whatever they are, and focus instead on consistently taking steps to accomplish goals that are important to you?

A harsh verdict? That is why you're caged in this pattern. Nobody in this world can make you feel good about yourself. Nor is it their responsibility. Relationships are a two way street. Sure you have an emotional reaction to being with someone you like. But that's a surface emotion built from superficial moments.

And no it doesn't take "20 or 30 years" to value yourself. Mine happened in a moment and in retrospect it was survival instinct kicking in because I was tired of beating my head against the wall with the same results. The TRUTH of my circumstances was I looked at it all wrong.

You may ask what is so important about loving yourself. Its because that's where your reasoning for where you fit and who should be around you comes from. Let me ask you something. Ever been to a restaurant where the service was bad and the food was terrible? Ever been to a restaurant where nothing on the menu was particularly to your liking and the prices were too high?

Okay. Now in both instances, why wouldn't you go back to those two places? Well for the very reasons I mentioned. You see it objectively. You KNOW what you like to eat, at what cost, and you want to have it prepared properly and provided by friendly faces because after-all you're paying for it. There's a value assessment happening there.

Now if you didn't pay attention to those factors and kept going back to those restaurants, chances are good you would get very tired of eating food you didn't like, lousy service, and going broke eating there. Who has to point that out to you? The waitress that ignores you? The restaurant owner? Your friends who don't go there? No... You figure that out for yourself because you KNOW what you like, you KNOW what you don't like, and you KNOW how you want that experience to go for yourself. Guess what? Meeting people are like that too.

When you understand yourself, you develop an understanding of people you want to be around and those you need to stay away from. If people are not reliable or don't do what they say they're going to do, why do you waste your time with them? Your time is important. So, no it doesn't take 20 or 30 years to figure these things out.

Do the things you like to do and enjoy those things. If you can find others who like doing those things, then see if they fit. Most people in life are not exact fits. Some people are good for friends to hang out occasionally. Some are good to talk to but have bad habits so you keep them at arms length. Others are more available and may be something worth pursuing. But time with them bares that out. However, none of these assessments are possible (just like the restaurant analogy) if you do not understand what you want and or need.

Just spending time with people is no measure of yourself. You need to learn to trust what you like and accept the fact meeting people are going to carry different experiences, so you need to understand what it is you want for yourself before you start assessing whether these people work for you or not. That's why its important to love and care for yourself. It offers amazing clarity when you understand yourself. Suddenly you can read the menu quite clearly... not to mention the prices. (;

Suppose I value me, and every day I am confronted with the fact that I am the only one who does ... how long can you reasonably expect me to maintain that position?

@pliepla Have you ever considered that you could be neurodiverse? I mean like on the autism spectrum.

Obviously I have no way of knowing you except through your posts on this thread but you reply in ways that aren’t very neurotypical. So it got me thinking if maybe you are on the autism spectrum.

You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to. And obviously I’m being extremely presumptuous. So I apologise if I have caused offence. I certainly did not mean to.

This has come to mind. I have a somewhat difficult history with the idea.

When the trouble with my ex wife started, we went into couple therapy. In the end, we ended these sessions, both convinced that it was all my fault. That was what she did: manipulate and dominate and in retrospect, this problematic power dynamic has been present in our relationship since day one. Somewhere in this period, the therapist suggested to have me test for autism (my ex wife was a doctor who, up to that point had been criticizing the hype of branding everybody as autistic). After that, she attributed everything that irritated her as my autism. This lasted for 3 years. It really hurt and I have never let this idea go. Thinkin about the possibility has been very painful for a long time.

After the divorce I asked my psychiatrist, whom I had been seeing for roughly years at the time. He stated he saw no reason to test for ***. When I was hospitalised years later, I remember my penultimate session being about autism. He took the DSM and I do have many traits, but he also explained that autism is not just about ticking boxes but also about why one has certain thoughts, emotions or behaviours. As he knew me for a long time, he could attribute everything to traumatic or problematic circumstances that I have been living in for longer periods of time (bullying when I was 9-11 years old, a very problematic relationship with my parents due to which I ended up in a career that was probably the worst match imaginable and eventually my marriage).

At the same time, I saw a psychologist. She too saw no reason whatsoever to test for ***. When hospitalized, I asked the same question, both to my psychiatrist and to the supervising psychiatrist. They know me less well of course (I have only been there for two months) but they had the same answer: in my case, they considered testing for *** a waste of time.

Shortly before my hospitalisation, I switched to a new psychologist. I have been seeing her for almost two years now. She too sees no reasong to test for autism. We often joke about this - like, when I turn up exacly on time for three sessions in a row (which is easy because I take the bus which always arrives at the same moment) or when we have to meet in another room because her office is being redecorated - which takes some of the weight of thinking about autism off my shoulders.

Yesterday, I had a particularly difficult day. I had a first consultation with a new psychiatrist and honestly, when I look back at what happened in therapy, I don't really believe it will make a difference and I don't trust him either. To my surprise, he was very understanding (on the other hand, I pointed out what happened during therapy the last 20 odd years). I have my next consultation in a month and in the meanwhile he is going to contact therapists going back 10 years (!). I got no medication; here too, I have a history of rare side effects, including a heart failure that was probably triggered by an antidepressant.
We will probably go through some diagnostic trajectory. He made a piramid with anxiety at the top, trauma just below that, attachment one storey lower and *** just below that. He doesn't rule it out.

About being neuro atypical ... I met up with a colleague of ten years ago a few weeks back. He has been diagnosed with ADD in his early fourties. I could relate to many of hís experiences and I could definitely live with this ... I think it matches my chaotic nature.

Oh wow, I’m so sorry. I certainly didn’t mean to cause you any upset. And in fact, I myself have been diagnosed with adhd and my husband with autism both as adults.

I in no way believe that would be something that would result in you being the only one to “blame” for things that went wrong in your marriage.

A marriage has two people in which both are supposed to take time to see from the others perspective.

It was just something that I had picked up from what you were saying.

Maybe read up some more about neurodiversity in adults and see if it fits? I honestly feel like a light bulb has been turned on for me.
I’m not saying it will, but if you think that may be the case it could also explain your approach and ways of thinking. However, it is important to discuss with your p doc or whoever else you see, what your thoughts are. Your traits or way of thinking could absolutely be as a result of trauma too. I don’t know.
I wish you all the best, you seem like a very lovely and genuine person.

There is so much more that you can offer and that the world can offer you. Have you ever thought about travelling? Seeing places? Or exploring/hiking? Or using your dance to travel to competitions?

If you value yourself, then its not an option you ever let go because that governs your ability to make good choices for yourself. In terms of receiving a caring quality from others, that's a word that can carry allot of different meanings depending on what your expectations are.

So for yourself what is the difference between say a family member that cares about you versus someone out in the wild you just met? When does the expectation kick in that a person you just met should become more and now care for you? How do you rationalize that exchange of words, actions, and deeds that says you now have reached that plateau?

I’m so sorry your ex used a possible autism investigation against you in that way, sadly I’ve heard of people scapegoating others like this before. That wasn’t fair of her and it sounds like you’re better off without her. Not every woman would act like that.

I too wondered if you weren’t neurotypical in some way, sorry if I use the wrong words, I read your posts almost as you trying to make sense of the world, again sorry if I use the wrong words.

I'm not upset about the mention of maybe being neuro-atypical. What did upset me, was the way my ex wife used it to bring me down. As said, the psychiatrist I was seeing throughout my divorce was convinced that all autism-traits could be explained from an anxiety perspective too. And yet, maybe a diagnosis might give me handles to make life easier.

What I remember from a conversation with an ex colleague is that his story of ADD is very recognisable though.

My ex-wife created a rift between me and my family that, four years later, still hasn't been bridged. She did this - among other things - by sending long emails with insults; some from my mail account. So a family member who cares is no longer an option for me, it seems.

You said "ex-wife created a rift". I'm curious, what is it that you want to create?

I'm not quite sure I want to create anything as I feel it is mostly out of my hands.

I hope for a place where I belong, experience some appreciation, be at ease but creating this? I know I depend on chance meetings ... I don't have that many; at least not with women who are candidates a relationship (most people in tango come as a couple). Apart from that, even keeping in touch with a friend involves some anxiety because even if they explicitly state they don't have time but we will meet another time, it feels as if I am not being sufficiently interesting (hence my original question) so it is hard to maintain a social circle too. Somehow, I hope that somebody being there for me, just because of me and not because I try so hard could help me find some easy of mind. I know a relationship will not be the solution to my underlying problems and that I will have to keep working on them but it might take of the sharpest edge that cuts me most often.

Looking back on the last week ...

Last Friday, I had a chance meeting with somebody I've "known" for three years. That is, I take painting classes, she does ceramics and at the end of the evening we occasionally meet at the bicycle stand, we later ended up riding together for part of our way home and then she stopped taking classes. I've always had a soft spot for her and have always been mad at myself for not daring to ask her if we could some time meet. We hadn't even spoken for more than 15 minutes. I didn't even know her name. And last Friday, we've been talking for over an hour. We said goodbye five time. We laughed, she cried (when she explained why she had to stop taking classes), we laughed again and everything felt OK. I know her name now and have her number and we will meet after my exams ...

As for the woman I've been agonizing over the last few months ... we had our normal rides home. We've been on stage together (OMG - I'm going to be onstage for a few hundred people), and after she took me to a birthday party of a friend whom I had never even seen, we've been to a concert yesterday (but she came with a friend who also fancies her and she has been talking a few times about how he's a nice friend but nothing more and how she is hesitant to go to workshops etc because he is doing it solely for her). She talked about still suffering from her last breakup (so my intuition about not moving too fast is probably right). But there is also a down side: we planned to go on tango weekend in september but she feels guilty towards the person I am taking classes with so she plans on going with the friend mentioned above. She asked if I preferred dancing with her (in general) over my lesson partner and as the other guy was around, I was to shy to say yes but she made a remark that the look on my face was quite clear. And to end the story: on the way home she asked which day I had time to go for a run (which she declined last week, which send my thoughts off in a downward spiral) ...

I think in the current situation, she is mostly involved in "not being alone" too much. Sadly, for me she is somebody in whom I see a lot of potential but it will never happen.

On a positive note: this tango dancing does a lot of good for me. I feel I am more open, more free in social contact than I have ever been, it even replaces the mountainbiking I had to give up and I am more confident than before (but given where I started out confidence-wise, that is still not saying much). It is just meeting this one person and my anxiety for a possible/probable rejection that often makes it hard to pack my shoes and leave the house.

And I should focus on my exams ...

Should I give up on love/life altogether?

After all, I am alone and lonely and nobody seems to see anything positive in me. I do a lot of things, meet a lot of peope but that is all very superficial and when I come home, it is as if the loneliness weighs double.

I've had a relationship when I was 25 until I was 28. Then I have been single for 8 years. After that a toxic relationship that lasted from 36 until 46 and a year after that a relationship that lasted allmost a year. That is my entire history. I have been single and lonely for most of my adult life. I obviously lack the appeal to have somebody fall for me, the social skills (not the mention the sexual expertise) to enter in a relationship and keep it going. But with an average life expectancy of still another 35 years ... it seems hard to have to live this nightmare for so long.

I think your story isn’t so uncommon, I think relationships aren’t easy for many people. I don’t think however you should think negatively about yourself because of this.

How about looking at yourself more kindly as a person who has value in themselves rather than what others think of them?

“ I obviously lack the appeal to have somebody fall for me, the social skills (not the mention the sexual expertise) to enter in a relationship and keep it going. ”
^
Are you sure all these are true, or is it that you lack confidence? Can these skills be learned and improved? Would improving these skills give you the confidence you need?

It’s funny how I think of movies to apply to situations. On your tango thread, I had mentioned Saturday Night Fever. On this thread, it reminds me of another great film, Swingers. Have you seen it? I think you’d like it because it’s also about Swing dancing. It’s about a man gaining confidence with women, and getting over an ex. I recommend watching these films because they really demonstrate a message that I can’t explain as well. Especially the part where Vince Vaughn tells John Favreau ‘She’s just a bunny and you are a wolf’. The message is to not overthink it so much that it stifles you with women.

I find that position hard to maintain when I am the only one who tries to value me. And at every encounter with somebody whom I fancy that leads to nothing, I only see a confirmation of my lack of intrinsic value. I try to compensate my unworthiness with doing all the things that I currently do.

Who's to tell? Also, how could I learn to improve these skills? I'm comfortable with superficial social contact (but that is not what makes me happy, if anything, it emphasizes my loneliness) but I don't really have that many encounters that I want to take to a next level so I have little opportunity to practice.
And as for sexuality: I am sure to disappoint. Everybody has had more partners than I have, has more experience, has more skill etc. I don't fancy the idea of going to a prostitute to practice. But that might not be what you mean.

I will keep the movies in mind, but I should spend most of my times studying in the near future so these might not be the best idea (ironically I spend some of my time here ...)

You use words like ‘unworthiness’ why do you think you’re unworthy? Why do you feel you lack intrinsic value?

I feel inadequate in everything I do. On a rational level, I know that is not necessarily true. I know some feel priviliged to dance with me, it does not feel that way. I know most people are in awe when they see my paintings. For me, they feel merely ok. I know that studying at a University with one foot still in a depression is quite a feat. I feel like a failure because I have to spread my program over two years.. So there is always the discrepancy between knowing and feeling. I sometimes think seeing this is something to build upon but I always end up trying to achieve more.

Where does this come from? Well, I was bullied (and quite violently too) in primary school. Then I had a father who wanted me to study something specific and who made sure I failed in everything I tried before that, making me insecure about my world view, my abilities, ... . I ended up in a master where I was in constant conflict with my peers, professors etc. because I shared nothin with them (and I believe my anxiety involving building up social bonds largely stems from there). At the same time - and continuing after my father died shortly before graduation - my mother was very abusive (verbally). Then I had two partners, who were very demeaning. The first one cheated on me for two thirds of our relationship the second probably not but she was more manipulative and dominating.

On top of that, the constant failure to build up friendships and - especially - romantic relationships not only makes me insecure whether I pick the right tone, get involved with the right people etc., but it also reaffirms that I am not good enough.

It sounds like you have two goals, generally speaking:

1. Feel adequate.

2. Do well.

It sounds like you are achieving goal 2. You are doing well, but you are not achieving goal 1. You still feel inadequate.

You explained why you feel inadequate. It has everything to do with your background. No doubt you understand that trying to make yourself feel adequate is a very difficult task, given that background.

I wonder if you could drop feeling adequate as a goal.

I wonder if you could focus on doing well on goals you want to accomplish--and tell the voices of inadequacy "there you go again, you are the endless background noise that I am not taking to heart."

I really like Bill’s advice and it’s something that I can apply to myself too.

I just want to say I see you as a worthy person far more than adequate but my opinion should not matter.

Sounds like a very ACT-y thing to do. I do believe this can be valueable but at the moment I do quite the opposite, deriding myself for being in love, pointing out in the harshest terms that I will never stand a chance with her and speaking these ideas out loud. I am probably harder to myself than anyone has ever been. I have a long way to go but it is probably a better approach than attempting to actively remember what I am doing well when I have a good day.

Would meditating help me with that? I used to feel better when meditating years ago but with the current unrest in my head, I am scared to start this anew.