[kim_johnson]

Lets say that person x is going out with person y...
And things are going quite well, but a little tricky because it is a long distance relationship for the most part.
And then (after about 9 months) person y says 'I don't want to presume anything, but I think I should let you know that I've been on a few dates recently'.
Lets suppose that there wasn't an understanding about not dating other people, but that neither x and y had done that for a time while they were trying to make things work.

Lets suppose that person x says 'well, either we can work on developing and maintaining our relationship or you can date other people - but not both'.

Long distance relationships ARE hard, but lets say that x and y could actually spend one year together if only y was prepared to wait another 6 months...

Does it sound reasonable for x to say what x did? Or does it sound like an unfair ultimatum?

To me its an ultimatem .... however... to me it needed to be said and X was not unfair in making that comment.

[Lenny]

Sounds to me that both x and y are doing their best to communicate,,and that is never bad...

Lenny

[Perna]

I think x should go to y or whatever is going to happen in 6 months and see whether a "real" relationship can come about at that time. There's really no such thing as a long-distance relationship except between friends; each has a wholly different life than the other! I don't think either should worry about who is dating whom if they're not there on the spot with the other.

[sunrise]

I think if Y wants X to come for an extended visit in 6 months, that Y should not date other people. If they live far apart, X needs to be able to plan this big move (end the lease on apartment/house, buy airplane tickets, ship belongs to Y's location, etc.). If I were X, I would find it very hard to plan to make a major, long distance move to be with someone who couldn't even promise exclusive dating.

I think it is very good X and Y are communicating on this. And that Y did not keep his/her dates secret from X. I guess if I were X, the question I would ask of Y, is "do you want me to come spend a year with you in 6 months time?" If the answer is no, well, end of story. It could be that Y's dating other people is a way of saying, "no, don't come!" If the answer is yes, move forward from there to negotiating dating.

Good luck.

[BalishBun]

The whole X and Y was hard for me to figure out, but you know I was willing to try a long distance relationship before, so i guess I would represent X, and Y wasnt willing to make that commitment. So my idea of the whole situation: X and Y have to fully commit to a long distance relationship and have the same rules otherwise it wont work.

[kim_johnson]

x and y met and spent about 3 weeks together (after knowing each other for a few weeks first). x fairly much moved in with y.

Then the long distance thing. Daily emails. Couple hours of discussion on the phone about every second or third day.

x went to visit y for about 3 weeks (after 6 months of long distance). Problems emerged (which was only to be expected, of course).

x went home. y was busy... traveling around... communication wasn't what it used to be.

then y tells x that y has been on a few dates recently.

x and y are 'just happening' to be going to the same place for 9 months. not in order to be with each other, but both independently planning on being there. both x and y knew this from the time that x went to visit y.

the thing is... there wasn't explicit commitment to not date other people (at least, this is what y says in hindsight, so lets go with that).

y didn't date other people until after the time that x came to visit. y seemed to think that the relationship had just 'petered out' and hence didn't want to 'presume' anything in telling x that y had been dating other people.

now... my culture doesn't have a 'dating culture' the way that the US does. i'll admit that I don't really understand it. x isn't prepared to be in a relationship with a person who is open to dating other people. x thinks that if a person is open to dating other people then a person hasn't made the commitment to be in a relationship. would y have gone out on dates with other people when x was visiting? no. so why is it okay after that all of a sudden?

x is concerned that y might want to start a relationship while they are in the same place for 9 months. and then when x and y part ways and things go back to being long distance that y will start dating other people again...

is it that x doesn't understand dating culture...
or is it that y doesn't want to commit to x and thus x needs to accept that and move on?
(and ensure that nothing starts up while they are in the same place together because y has made it abundently clear that y is not prepared to commit to having a faithful relationship with x)

[Perna]

I think x and y are doomed unless they can get together and stay together. The whole together and apart thing is way too hard to make work, there's no "point" to it.

[kim_johnson]

Hmm... How about if I add that in our line of work partners being in the same place at the same time is considered the 'two body problem' (the idea being that it is hard to solve and there might not be an ideal solution). I know a number of couples who are officially apart for 9 months per year. Only it works out to be much more together time than that once you factor in additional holidays and other opportunities to spend a week or so together through the year. Then every few years or so you might get to spend a whole year and a bit together.

Some people won't get involved with another person in a similar line of work precisely because of this, however.

Trouble is that I also know a number of couples who (perhaps given the nature of the job) are happy to have fairly open relationships for the time they aren't together. I wonder if that is what y is thinking... That is something that is non-negotiable for me, however. There could be opportunities for us to spend more time together in the future. That would involve comprimise, however. The point (I think) is that he doesn't seem willing to try. So... When we are in the same place for 9 months I need to keep my resolve. I don't want us to get back together and then for things to fall apart again (him to want to date other people) once we leave. Not negotiable for me. Nope.

Does this sound kind of reasonable?

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
kim_johnson said:
now... my culture doesn't have a 'dating culture' the way that the US does. i'll admit that I don't really understand it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">The U.S. has a dating culture? What does that mean? I live in the U.S. and don't know about our dating culture, lol.

Kim, here is how I always thought things worked. A guy and girl get to know each other by spending time together, going out to restaurants, movies, eating dinners at home, listening to music, going for hikes, etc. At some point, the relationship becomes more serious and they do not do these activities with other people. Usually by this point they are sleeping together. If one partner wants to date or sleep with other people, they should break up with the other partner first. This is considered common courtesy and the right thing to do. If they don't break up first and sleep with multiple people, there is usually a big hullabaloo and one partner in the relationship she/he thought was exclusive ends up feeling betrayed and shows the "cheater" the door. Is that what you mean by dating culture?

Y wants to date multiple people. To me that means he is not committed to an exclusive relationship with X, at least by U.S. standards. If Y is trying to tell X that is not the way it works, that we do things differently in the U.S., well that is a crock of s**t and he is just trying to make excuses for not wanting to commit to an exclusive relationship.

Kim, the two body problem exists in my field too. That does not make it OK to cheat on your partner (unless of course both partners want an "open" relationship, but this is not common in my field). I married a guy in my field and it was a bad decision (for many reasons it turns out). I would not do it again if only because of the career problems it causes.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
x isn't prepared to be in a relationship with a person who is open to dating other people.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Sounds like a firm boundary and you know your mind. Good.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
x thinks that if a person is open to dating other people then a person hasn't made the commitment to be in a relationship.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Agreed. Seems obvious.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
y has made it abundently clear that y is not prepared to commit to having a faithful relationship with x

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Sounds like you two have talked about it and this is his answer? I guess it's kind of a "take it or leave it choice" for x. At least he is being honest. I think he would not be surprised if any woman chose "leave it", but if he can get someone to say "take it", then why not? Perhaps a strategy that has worked for him in the past.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
So... When we are in the same place for 9 months I need to keep my resolve. I don't want us to get back together and then for things to fall apart again (him to want to date other people) once we leave. Not negotiable for me. Nope.

Does this sound kind of reasonable?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Yes. I admire your firm boundaries.

Does X have to go to the same place Y will be for 9 months or are there other options? Might be easier for X to go elsewhere unless unavoidable.

[kim_johnson]

Hey. Australasian culture is such that people go out and hang out in mixed groups. If people split off from the group to date then that means that things are serious - that there seriously is a potential there for them to screw and / or develop a serious relationship. You get to know people pretty well in a group setting. So if you split off from the group in order to date someone then that implies that it is serious.

What I meant with respect to us not having a 'dating culture' is that dating is considered a serious thing to do by its nature. If you date someone then that implies that you have known them in a group setting for a time and that you were friends before you decided to date. The US idea of going on 'blind dates' or on going on dates with people who you haven't met in a group setting and developed a friendship with is something that is fairly foreign (though not unheard of).

So when someone tells me they are dating other people I hear: They are interested in developing a serious relationship with the person / people they are dating and / or they are looking at developing a sexual relationship with them. I know that y goes out to dinner with female friends that he had and x girlfriends and I never minded that - but then he never referred to those as dates. From his perspective, it doesn't follow that because he is dating other people that he is interested (or potentially interested) in having a serious relationship with them at all.

Cultural difference? Or is y just amazingly lacking in insight? I don't know... It doesn't really matter from my perspective, I guess... But he did say: 'I don't think it is fair for you to ask me not to date other people'. I replied: 'I don't think it is a matter of fairness. I mean, I could similarly ask you how fair is it for you to *want* to date other people given how I feel about you? It isn't a matter of fairness. Maybe it is just that we want different things in a relationship...

Part of the trouble is that we only ever got to spend six and a half weeks together all up. About 9 months of the long distance thing... But only six and a half weeks together. I knew him (and hung out with him in a group) for a couple weeks... And then we hooked up and I basically moved in (unofficially) for a couple weeks. Then six months of long distance (which seemed to go fine). Then I visited him for three and a half weeks... Then after that things seemed to go downhill. There are so many reasons why things might have gone downhill... So many... But the thing was: I was prepared to commit to having a relationship with him and I was sure that we could work through the problems. Whereas he... I think he might be a person who 'floats into' relationships - and then gives up on them when the going gets tough. I tried to figure out what went wrong... He comes up with reasons... But when I question the reasons (because they aren't so good reasons) he doesn't change his conclusion. I'm not sure he knows the real reasons driving his conclusion. I've given him many outs: Is it that you see me as a friend more than a lover? - no. Is it that you see me more as a sister or friend or something non-sexual like that? - no, I'm physically attracted to you. Is it that you are grieving over your fathers recent death? - no, it isn't that. Well then... What the %#@&#! is it? Your reasons don't make sense... I don't understand. But then... Maybe he doesn't either.

We slept together once. Just before I left. It was awkward. But then: First times usually are. I think... My general feeling... Was that he was reluctant. But we never could figure out why. Then next thing I hear... He wants to date other people. I asked 'are you breaking up with me?' and he was like... 'No. I didn't think of it like that'. Neither of us are going to change our plans - so we will be in the same place for 9 months. It is unclear how much of each other we are going to see. Before we broke up I was going to ask him about whether we might live together for that time... He was like 'I'm going to live 10 minutes away from x so that wouldn't be feasible for you'. I've since learned that that is where most of the students live and that there are free buses from there to where I need to go. His excuses are full of %#@&#!. But he has decided on the conclusion. I guess I just need to accept that. And not... Just let things happen. That would be so easy. To float into something... To float out of it at the end of 9 months while he goes back to dating other people. No. That would hurt too much.

[kim_johnson]

Tis a weird thing... I thought we had problems (from the first time we were together) but they were things I kind of 'flagged' and I was open to whether they would persist as problems that we needed to work on, or whether they would sort themselves out. I tried not to idealize because I didn't want to set him up to be inevitably disappointing. I've since discovered that he idealized me / our relationship during that time and that from his perspective there weren't any problems or flagged issues from then at all.

He is very much interested in the nature of the self. More in particular, how the self is relational / environment dependent. Something he is really very interested in is the situationist literature in psychology. The thought is that that literature shows us that the reasons that people give for their behaviour aren't the causally important influences on their behaviour.

And when I listen to him trying to provide reasons for his conclusions: I concurr. The reasons that he provides aren't causally important with respect to his conclusions. For a time... I challenged his reasons. His reasons really were so obviously problematic. I thought that if his conclusion was based on those reasons then it was well worth questioning those reasons. It took me some time to see that the main reason why he is so impressed with the self being relational and with reasons cited being causally irrelevant is because: He is a particularly salient example of that. His cited reasons are more causally irrelevant than most peoples are. His self is context dependent more than most peoples is.

I love him. I'm not sure why. An expression of my pathology, perhaps. I could see that we had a number of things that we needed to work on in order to have a healthy happy relationship. I was prepared to work on those things. He wasn't. He wasn't. I thought maybe he had intimacy issues in general... That if he could see that then he would work on having a relationship with me. I find him disappointing in the sense that he isn't as psychologically aware as I'd hoped he would be. It doesn't matter why he doesn't want to have a relationship with me (I've realized). I just need to accept that he doesn't.

I need to be happy that I've realized that he is a person who runs when the going gets tough. I'm glad I know that now instead of finding that out the hard way (e.g., once I've had his children or whatever). I deserve better... Only... That doesn't seem so very charitable. We just want different things in a relationship. I think that last one is more charitable. I need to move on. It is hard to withdraw caring in a healthy way... So hard... So hard.

[Lenny]

I'm not sure of your point Kim...it doesn't seem there was an over abundance of positive chemistry in this relationship at any time...seems very complex when simple genuine smiles would do...

I think most problems can be solved,,,but some maybe shouldn't...

Nothing wrong with a caring gratitude for time spent though...

IMHO.

Lenny

[kim_johnson]

Maybe the trouble is that appealing to 'lack of chemistry' with respect to why things didn't work is (for me) a little like appealing to a 'lack of vital spirit' with respect to why the rock doesn't move. That is to say: It isn't much in the way of an explanation at all.

I would just find it a great deal easier if I knew WHY he decided that he didn't want to commit to me. If he said 'I like you as a friend, but I'm not sexually attracted to you' then that would make sense to me. I could accept that. I could feel caring gratitude for time spent and look forward to us continuing to be friends. But he said 'no, that isn't it. I DO feel sexually attracted to you'. The not knowing why is the hardest thing. If we can look at what the problems really were then we could look and see if they are resolvable or not. At present... I don't think he knows why.

He doesn't need to know why for me... But he will need to know why at some point (or he will end up very lonely indeed). I guess I just need to accept that he is either unwilling or unable to look at the real reasons. Why is he unwilling? I don't know... I think it might be more about inability. Narcissistic vulnerability. I understand that, I surely do. But there is nothing I can do if he isn't prepared to work on this. I guess I just need to accept that...

[kim_johnson]

I was supportive. He wasn't really the smily type. Not with me, but not with anyone else, either. Sometimes we would seem harmonious in doing things side by side. An awful lot of the time he would express head circles about people being flakes or whatever, though. I'd listen and be supportive...

But his *****ing was hard for me to take, yeah.

He seemed surprised at how supportive I was. Said he realized how his past girlfriends really were quite self absorbed and narcissistic. He seemed to like that I was supportive.

Maybe the problem was: Role reversal. He was a support for them... But this time around I was the support for him. Maybe that didn't help him feel better so much as it encouraged him to do the head circles as he thought that was the dynamic nature of our relationship. Maybe the thought is: Someones gotta do it. Whereas for me... The support should be mutual such that we feel better about (and take better care of) ourself... Enough of the *****ing already...

[Lenny]

I don't know if affairs of the heart should be so intellectually based kim? I know I can wonder from time to time about "if, why,,and how" folks are interfacing with me but most times I am operating on my own fears when I consider this too much...

My greatest moments in any relationship are boundless...meaning I have no expectations,,,I allow a person to be who they are and basically take me or leave me...

Leaving me means that the time is not right for our attributes or needs to co exist with some harmony...

As I have gotton older I have learned a patience about things,,,that time needs time...and people too need those ticks of the clock to accept or not what I am...

IMHO.

Lenny

[kim_johnson]

Hey. I guess I haven't focused on the good times, here. There were good times, though.

What is hard is that I really really liked him. And then he told me he wanted to date other people. And I wasn't okay with that at all. Basically... I really cared for him and wasn't happy with him dating other people. I asked if he was trying to break up with me and he was like 'no, I hadn't thought of it like that'.

The thing is that we are going to be in the same place for a time. 9 months. And I could see that it would only be too easy for us to start hanging out again... But then at the end of our time together... What would happen then?

I'm not prepared to get deeply attached to him if he is likely to want to date other people at the end of our time together. So... It is important to me to know why, yeah.

I know it isn't terribly spontaneous... But without an understanding why... It is just terribly confusing is all. I could accept if he wasn't sexually attracted to me and just wanted to be friends. But he said that isn't it... He doesn't seem to know why... So neither do I... But it makes me feel a little wary, yeah.

No expectations is a wonderful thing... But it is unrealistic for things to be like that when things get to the point of commitment and building families etc etc. I don't know that I'm ready for a family... He laments that he hasn't got one yet... I'm looking for a life partner. I'm over the 'floating around and seeing what happens' thing...