[WhiteClouds]

Random thought. The tricky thing about transference and disclosing it to your clinician, it always seem to shift back to.. Those are your emotions, you made it up, it's all in your head. Anyone else noticed it? I've read several posts and someone will say, "maybe YOU'RE attaching that emotion, feeling, etc". Nooo, maybe there is some attraction, connection there. The dangerous part is the clinician can easily state some psycho jargon putting it back on the client. Only for the purpose of protecting his job. There are so many dimensions to human interaction. Not only psychological. Spiritual, emotional, physical, sexual. You can not rationalize everything way. Some things are simply are.
It kinda bothers me how people seem to want it to be a fabrication of one imagination. smh I guess that is what they are taught.

[unaluna]

Well, they're not rocks, they are people, they do have feelings and reactions. But how do you imagine life with your t will be? Saturday morning, cleaning house, going grocery shopping, cutting the grass. Oh wait - you're doing all that on your own, he's got appointments with young women!! That's one aspect of it. The question for me is, why does it seem like everything will be alright if he would just take me home? Cuz really I give off that impression to a lot of people - take me home! Like a lost puppy. What is that?? Cuz really again - he has his own ideas of how he wants to spend his golden years - and watching me sleep is not one of them! Maybe you would be a more exciting partner than I would, but then again, maybe not.

[moonlitsky]

Originally Posted by WhiteClouds

Random thought. The tricky thing about transference and disclosing it to your clinician, it always seem to shift back to.. Those are your emotions, you made it up, it's all in your head. Anyone else noticed it? I've read several posts and someone will say, "maybe YOU'RE attaching that emotion, feeling, etc". Nooo, maybe there is some attraction, connection there. The dangerous part is the clinician can easily state some psycho jargon putting it back on the client. Only for the purpose of protecting his job. There are so many dimensions to human interaction. Not only psychological. Spiritual, emotional, physical, sexual. You can not rationalize everything way. Some things are simply are.
It kinda bothers me how people seem to want it to be a fabrication of one imagination. smh I guess that is what they are taught.

I disagree with a reductive type therapy - where everything is reduced back to the past and transference - I feel it is often convenient for the therapist but very unhelpful for the client. Transference occurs naturally inside and outside of the therapy relationship. Therapy can get hold of the transference and use it to help us put the bits of the jigsaw into place. A therapist who really understands transference will probably never even use the word - he or she will just 'be' with it, use the relationship with the client to understand it - which we don't get 'out there'. The transference is a way to understand, not to blame. I agree - 'some things just are' - or as freud put it so famously 'sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!' I don't see it as a fabrication of our imagination - it is our truth - but not necessarily fact. I can't see how teaching anyone that transference is a fabrication of ones imagination could be helpful at all. If a therapst spoke to me in that way I would know he or she had not really got a feel of tranference and how painful it can be - it would feel it comes from a thinking (clinical) place rather than from a feeling (experience) place. I certainly have never been taught that.

I wonder if perhaps there is a difficulty for you right now regarding how it feels in therapy? Or your experiences in therapy? The transference feels like something very negative - something that can be used to hurt you? That must be very painful for you. Have any of the things you speak about happened to you in therapy?

We all have bad days - therapists too! And sometimes we get it wrong and cause pain. Sometimes we see something as a transference because we are defending something painful for ourselves (our own transference) - because we are human. But the healing part is when we can say 'I am sorry, I got it wrong' - that can go a long way to mending the rupture. We have to be able to stand back and be open to seeing what has happened - then we are in a better place to not use reductive techniques to defend ourselves.

Best wishes

Moon

["Tilly may"]

Im confused with the whole idea of transference. Alll I know is that I developed strong feelings for my therapist early on. I did not intend to feel so strongly about her. It is extremely painful and embarassing.
and I dont know how to make those feelings go away.
Cyn

[WhiteClouds]

Hi Tillymay,
Do some research on it. There seems to be different kinds of transference. For me it was well into my sessions it showed up. By the holidays it was in full swing. I mean every waking thought, racy dreams, making sure everything is perfect whenever I saw him. It did subside for some time. I then just casually blurt it out that I was dealing with transference and was having explicit dreams about him. But I hurried up and said that it was gone away. I looked up at him and his mouth was agape. He was shocked. He was more bothered I never said anything to him about it. I felt no need to up until that point. I do go through some merging of the transference, then it go away. Like now we're into week 4 of the transference revisited. It doesn't help he asks certain questions while looking away. His voice lowers to a whisper he look down and asks. Then I respond he go back to talking like normal. A art of him do feel an affection towards him. I appreciate him. Will he ever feel the same? I doubt it. It would be a HUGE stroke to my ego if the man was. He's handsome, intelligent, witty, and supportive. Meh! We know that will not happen. So for no, I must come to terms with it and suffer in silence.

["Tilly may"]

omigod white clouds, that sounds terribly painful. im not looking forward to being rejected or to feel awkwrd with her. it sucks

[WhiteClouds]

Originally Posted by "Tilly may"

omigod white clouds, that sounds terribly painful. im not looking forward to being rejected or to feel awkwrd with her. it sucks

Hi Tilly,
The rejection aspect of it. He has never directly reject me. When I told him he was shocked. He did ask me why didn't I want to cover this in session. I didn't because I was so ashamed to admit my feelings to him. I felt they made me appear as some slutty, absent minded, needy, floozy. I decided to figure it out on my own. His approach is always the same we do not discuss what I do not want to discuss.
I feel more comfortable with him now than ever. Closer to him and more open than before. I appreciate the role he plays in my life. I appreciate the fact he doesn't judge me. He sternly leads me along.
I do believe the transference serves a purpose. Each clinician handles it differently. I doubt she will do anything that may cause you a great deal of pain. She is a skilled professional and should know how to help you through this. It will not be easy. Our imaginations run wild with all the possibilities. hang in there. Take it a session at a time.

["Tilly may"]

thanks , I think you are right

[nicoleflynn]

Feelings don't just go away. THey are real. My feelings have remained the same for 7 years and I have learned to live with them. Difficult, but necessary. We love who we love. Someone said, "the only place we call love by another name is the therapy room" (transference). We shouldn't feel ashamed of feelings.

Originally Posted by WhiteClouds

Random thought. The tricky thing about transference and disclosing it to your clinician, it always seem to shift back to.. Those are your emotions, you made it up, it's all in your head. Anyone else noticed it? ....Nooo, maybe there is some attraction, connection there. The dangerous part is the clinician can easily state some psycho jargon putting it back on the client. Only for the purpose of protecting his job. There are so many dimensions to human interaction. Not only psychological. Spiritual, emotional, physical, sexual. You can not rationalize everything way. Some things are simply are.
It kinda bothers me how people seem to want it to be a fabrication of one imagination. smh I guess that is what they are taught.

Thanks WhiteCloud. You explained it very well. I don't know why we just can't talk feelings in therapy both theirs (T's) and ours. We give up ourselves but T gets to hide behind the "relationship is strictly t/client" line. No real feelings can be acknowledged by them. This is very painful for some us who need the love of their T. Go hide behind your cloak if that makes you comfortable. I'll never find someone who will be honest with me and I'm trying to come to grips with that.

[moonlitsky]

Originally Posted by Sadendings

Thanks WhiteCloud. You explained it very well. I don't know why we just can't talk feelings in therapy both theirs (T's) and ours. We give up ourselves but T gets to hide behind the "relationship is strictly t/client" line. No real feelings can be acknowledged by them. This is very painful for some us who need the love of their T. Go hide behind your cloak if that makes you comfortable. I'll never find someone who will be honest with me and I'm trying to come to grips with that.

It doesn't happen like that where I do therapy! It is love, it is real and it is ok and freely spoken about - but NEVER will it become a relationship outside the therapy room/a sexual relationship - that is damaging, whatever the client may think they need - it is utter abandonment to enter into a sexual relationship with a client. We may be furious about it but that boundary is there to protect the client - and the regressed infant part that we all have, from abuse. It doesn't mean the therapist can't be in there with us, loving us (in a real intimate encounter), but it does mean we are safe. Having sex with a client is incestuous.

It depends if the therapist has done their work - whether they are ok with it or not. If they aren't they will hide behind boundaries that are more for their benefit than their cleints. If they aren't it remains as powerful fantasies in the client's mind and cannot be resolved. In my therapy it is spoken and worked with, allowing me to connect with and feel the infant who has been suffering so long. Yes, it has been agony, it is agony, but because my therapist can work with it and can put herself right in there with me without being afraid or pulling away, I have been able to work through to a better place and the transference is weakening. I am aware of horror stories involving therapists who don't understand and act out or push away - or fuel the fantasies rather than working with them to diffuse them. I love my clients, and if it helps I tell them so - some need that, others don't - all are individuals.

Moon

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by Sadendings

Thanks WhiteCloud. You explained it very well. I don't know why we just can't talk feelings in therapy both theirs (T's) and ours. We give up ourselves but T gets to hide behind the "relationship is strictly t/client" line. No real feelings can be acknowledged by them. This is very painful for some us who need the love of their T. Go hide behind your cloak if that makes you comfortable. I'll never find someone who will be honest with me and I'm trying to come to grips with that.

I agree that this is so hard. My feelings are for my male pdoc and I go to a female T for therapy separately. I had such a hard time coming to grips with this whole issue. I kept my feelings and pain from my female T all along, but finally told her. And I didn't expect it, but talking about these feelings with another T really helped. A lot. It is true that the "relationship is strictly t/client" line is incredibly frustrating. But now I can see why it is so necessary and can be likened to relationships with people in many other areas our lives. As a professional, my pdoc knows that saying anything about what might happen if he wasn't my provider isn't appropriate and in the long term, wouldn't be helpful. I couldn't wrap my brain around this concept for 5 years. But when I finally after all this time talked to my female T about it, it clicked. I am in a masters program for counseling and maybe that helps too, because I see it from the other side and it is different from what I thought. They teach us not to be dismissive of feelings or to write them off as imaginary - that is condescending. But, acknowledging feelings of attraction could fuel a fire and be harmful. No matter how well you T knows you, there is no way for them to predict your reaction, nobody could. And their job is to help us cope in the outside world better and on our own, to not encourage dependence on them. Engaging is diaglogue about what if or what could be can open the door to pain and heartache. By not doing this they are showing love. So maybe they can't say how much they care, but they can absolutely show it by doing what is best for you. When you truly love someone, you want what's best for them, even if it's not what you want for yourself.

[LearningMe01]

I love what you wrote here. I could NOT agree more!! Luckily, when I disclosed my feelings to my T, she didn't try and tell me it was "transference" or something made up in my head, she just told me about the guidelines that have to be followed. I told her I thought those guidelines were BS, and she laughed. But I was glad she didn't try and tell me I was "projecting" something on to her , like my Mother, or an ex lover. I told her I liked her "Human" side, and she said she understood. Yes, she did "reject" me in a way, but I knew that was going to happen. But she did acknowledge that my feelings were real. I liked that. I hate the word "transference", I think it should be banned from psych central forums ... hehe ;-)

[LearningMe01]

Originally Posted by moonlitsky

It doesn't happen like that where I do therapy! It is love, it is real and it is ok and freely spoken about - but NEVER will it become a relationship outside the therapy room/a sexual relationship - that is damaging, whatever the client may think they need - it is utter abandonment to enter into a sexual relationship with a client. We may be furious about it but that boundary is there to protect the client - and the regressed infant part that we all have, from abuse. It doesn't mean the therapist can't be in there with us, loving us (in a real intimate encounter), but it does mean we are safe. Having sex with a client is incestuous.

It depends if the therapist has done their work - whether they are ok with it or not. If they aren't they will hide behind boundaries that are more for their benefit than their cleints. If they aren't it remains as powerful fantasies in the client's mind and cannot be resolved. In my therapy it is spoken and worked with, allowing me to connect with and feel the infant who has been suffering so long. Yes, it has been agony, it is agony, but because my therapist can work with it and can put herself right in there with me without being afraid or pulling away, I have been able to work through to a better place and the transference is weakening. I am aware of horror stories involving therapists who don't understand and act out or push away - or fuel the fantasies rather than working with them to diffuse them. I love my clients, and if it helps I tell them so - some need that, others don't - all are individuals.

Moon

I love almost everything you wrote here, Moon. But I have to disagree with one thing. I don't believe entering a sexual/romantic/friendship relationship with a former client is always damaging. I do understand how it could be , in many cases. But in some situations, maybe it is just love, nothing to do with therapy, just love. And If you love someone, you want them to know everything about you...so the fact that the therapist knows your "deepest, darkest secrets" shouldn't be in issue. Yes, I understand that it is NEVER supposed to happen. But I feel as though maybe, in some cases, two people will miss a chance at "true love" simply because some psychology board is trying to "protect" them. Of course, I do believe that in most cases it is the client who harbors the "romantic" feelings, and not the therapist...but sometimes I'm a "what if" thinker.
That is simply the way I feel, I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but I do know what's good for me and what's potentially dangerous for me, I don't need anyone else to tell me what I need.

[LearningMe01]

Also - just to add something here. I feel like placing those boundaries on us (clients) as well as forcing Therapists to follow STRICT boundaries, invalidates us clients a little. Almost like we're all "sick" and "don't know any better." Some (most) of us are just looking to reach out for a little guidance in our life.

I'm sorry, I'm just a fountain of feelings tonight. My emotions are over flowing lol (I think Pms might be the culprit )

Originally Posted by moonlitsky

It doesn't happen like that where I do therapy! It is love, it is real and it is ok and freely spoken about - but NEVER will it become a relationship outside the therapy room/a sexual relationship - that is damaging, whatever the client may think they need - it is utter abandonment to enter into a sexual relationship with a client. We may be furious about it but that boundary is there to protect the client - and the regressed infant part that we all have, from abuse. It doesn't mean the therapist can't be in there with us, loving us (in a real intimate encounter), but it does mean we are safe. Having sex with a client is incestuous.

It depends if the therapist has done their work - whether they are ok with it or not. If they aren't they will hide behind boundaries that are more for their benefit than their cleints. If they aren't it remains as powerful fantasies in the client's mind and cannot be resolved. In my therapy it is spoken and worked with, allowing me to connect with and feel the infant who has been suffering so long. Yes, it has been agony, it is agony, but because my therapist can work with it and can put herself right in there with me without being afraid or pulling away, I have been able to work through to a better place and the transference is weakening. I am aware of horror stories involving therapists who don't understand and act out or push away - or fuel the fantasiesI rather than working with them to diffuse them. I love my clients, and if it helps I tell them so - some need that, others don't - all are individuals.Moon

Thank you Moon. Your clients are lucky. I just want to clarify that my love is more emotional for T, along with a need to be held. Guess that could lead to other things & desires for us both, I don't know. Maybe it's not a good idea but I can't help what I feel. I thought once that I could look past it because I really wanted to see him in his professional capacity. I needed his help but I could not stop my feelings from coming through. I understand that every T does not deal with this and, truthfully, I don't want to be "dealt" with. As stupid as it sounds, I just fell for him and thought there was a deep connection between us. Now I see it was just one sided. I feel like a fool. I don't want to hear about "transference". I've come to hate the word. Thankfully, T did not bring it up.

Originally Posted by LearningMe01

But I feel as though maybe, in some cases, two people will miss a chance at "true love" simply because some psychology board is trying to "protect" them. Of course, I do believe that in most cases it is the client who harbors the "romantic" feelings, and not the therapist...but sometimes I'm a "what if" thinker. That is simply the way I feel, I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but I do know what's good for me and what's potentially dangerous for me, I don't need anyone else to tell me what I need.

Thanks LearningMe for what you wrote above. You said exactly what I could not. Your overflow is welcome!!

[nicoleflynn]

I hate the word, "transference" also....just a fancy word for....feelings! There isn't any subject my t and I cannot (or have not...LOL) discussed....I have loved him for a long time and believe I always will. Unfortunately he is not available and I have somehow found a way to live with what it is.

[LearningMe01]

Originally Posted by Sadendings

Thanks LearningMe for what you wrote above. You said exactly what I could not. Your overflow is welcome!!

You are most welcome I've been feeling very thoughtful lately

[LearningMe01]

Originally Posted by amee200

I agree that this is so hard. My feelings are for my male pdoc and I go to a female T for therapy separately. I had such a hard time coming to grips with this whole issue. I kept my feelings and pain from my female T all along, but finally told her. And I didn't expect it, but talking about these feelings with another T really helped. A lot. It is true that the "relationship is strictly t/client" line is incredibly frustrating. But now I can see why it is so necessary and can be likened to relationships with people in many other areas our lives. As a professional, my pdoc knows that saying anything about what might happen if he wasn't my provider isn't appropriate and in the long term, wouldn't be helpful. I couldn't wrap my brain around this concept for 5 years. But when I finally after all this time talked to my female T about it, it clicked. I am in a masters program for counseling and maybe that helps too, because I see it from the other side and it is different from what I thought. They teach us not to be dismissive of feelings or to write them off as imaginary - that is condescending. But, acknowledging feelings of attraction could fuel a fire and be harmful. No matter how well you T knows you, there is no way for them to predict your reaction, nobody could. And their job is to help us cope in the outside world better and on our own, to not encourage dependence on them. Engaging is diaglogue about what if or what could be can open the door to pain and heartache. By not doing this they are showing love. So maybe they can't say how much they care, but they can absolutely show it by doing what is best for you. When you truly love someone, you want what's best for them, even if it's not what you want for yourself.

Wow. Thanks for this! It really helped something "click" for me. My T and I have great rapport and a great relationship, yet when I finally told her about my feelings for her, she pretty much refused to tell me if she would "like me" out of therapy. She said it can "fuel a fantasy". Hearing her say that stung, a lot...but I think maybe I didn't take it the way she meant it. What you wrote here really resonates, and I believe this is what she was trying to tell me.

[Sunne]

. There are so many dimensions You can not rationalize everything way. Some things are simply are.
.

This is similar o what my T says about my transference.

[geezusz]

Quote:
. There are so many dimensions You can not rationalize everything way. Some things are simply are.
.
This is similar o what my T says about my transference.

I told my therapist the same thing. I said that I have stopped analyzing my crush on her, because it just is what it is. I told her that it is like analyzing gravity or biology. She told me I am putting up walls and that was all coming from resistance. LOL

[beans_on_toast]

Originally Posted by LearningMe01

I love almost everything you wrote here, Moon. But I have to disagree with one thing. I don't believe entering a sexual/romantic/friendship relationship with a former client is always damaging. I do understand how it could be , in many cases. But in some situations, maybe it is just love, nothing to do with therapy, just love. And If you love someone, you want them to know everything about you...so the fact that the therapist knows your "deepest, darkest secrets" shouldn't be in issue. Yes, I understand that it is NEVER supposed to happen. But I feel as though maybe, in some cases, two people will miss a chance at "true love" simply because some psychology board is trying to "protect" them. Of course, I do believe that in most cases it is the client who harbors the "romantic" feelings, and not the therapist...but sometimes I'm a "what if" thinker.
That is simply the way I feel, I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but I do know what's good for me and what's potentially dangerous for me, I don't need anyone else to tell me what I need.

Thanks for saying this leaningme. I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this.

This is such a good thread. I am struggling with ET with my T currently and coming to terms with the clinical concept of erotic transference, and is why i have come here to PC.

I am sure that the transference I am feeling towards my T does have to do with some unmet early childhood needs from my parents, but who is not to say that it isn't 'love' between a client and T? I dislike that the psych community hides behind the clinical ideas of what transference is and use it as a reason to why the feelings come up in T.

What makes this harder for me is knowing that my T went through his own counter transference with 'sexual' feelings for me last year. He spent many weeks working through his issues with this, while keeping the therapy safe for me, but it does make me wonder if more is going on then just him having some unresolved past issues brought into the therapy setting by me. He says this is the first time this has ever happened to him in 20 years of doing therapy.

Anyways, thanks again for being brave enough to say this.

[moonlitsky]

In any relationship, when we first meet, the feelings we feel for the other person will be transferential - either negative feelings or positive ones, or something inbetween. It can only be transference because we actually know nothing about that person. So the love we feel when it's 'love at first sight' or in those heady days of love that we feel when we first meet and 'falll in love' with someone is mainly transferential. We project onto the other person our idealised fantasies of who they are. Eventually, as we get to really know the other person, spend time in their lives, etc, that transference drops away and we start to see them for who they really are - and often it is at this point that things go wrong and relationships become messy and difficult - we will often hear people saying 'he/she isn't the person they were when I met them' - they aren't because the way we saw them was transferential.

Often though, when the transference falls away, we see someone we really do love and want to be with. It won't ever be heady like when we first met because we know more about them now and it has all settled down and is more 'normal'. Those relationsips are the ones that work. It might be that the two people involved are quite secure in their attachment s and the transference wasn't far wrong. But for many, especially those with attachment difficulties, the fantasy of who the other is and who they really are is way off. When we really find out who the other is it turns out they are more like someone who hurt us than someone who can love and care for us.

In the therapy room the same thing happens - we often 'fall in love' with the therapist - it is at that time transferential because we don't really know the therapist at all. But, this continues and the transference doesn't drop away so quickly - and that is what enables us to explore ourselves and better understand our past and what we replay in relationships. So, for sometime we are embroiled in an idealised transference and all the erotic and love feelings remain. It is important that the therspist holds the boundaries to allow it all to be played out, and the parts that went wrong can be re worked.

Just as happens in relationships 'out there', negative pathology eventually clicks in as the idealisation wears off - and feelings of love, hate, rage and envy come into play (depending on the level of early attachment damage) - and the therapeutic relationship allows them to be acted out and understood. 'Out there' it is likely this would be the point at which the relationship fails, but if the therapist is good enough, he/she will withstand and help to resolve these conflicts with the client. That is the job of the therapist, not to use the client as a potential sexual partner.

Unfortunately, due to the regressive nature of this type of therapy, it is very unlikely that trying to convert it to a real adult relationhip would work, because of the intense dynamics concerned. It often ends in the client being terribly hurt and a therapist losing his or her job. It's a recipe for disaster. I have read of such relationships failing disasterously - when the transference falls away and the reality of the relationship is far from the fantasy - and the client becomes powerless and enraged. A therapist who even attempts to do this is highly unskilled and unethical and has fallen into, rather than working with, the projections. It is abusive.

I don't believe, that while in such a powerful transference, we are capable of judging what is right for us, just as we aren't able to see things when we are in those first throws of love. Brain scans have shown that while in that state our brain is in a state similar to that of a psychosis - a losing touch with reality. It is therefore very important that the therapist can hold and maintain boundaries with the client to maintain a non abusive therapeutic relationship.

It's different, say, if a client saw a therapist a handful of times for CBT and there was no such transferential feelings. They meet up by chance 2 years later at a party and hit it off. That would be less likely to damage.

Moon

moon, usually I like your posts, however, I really think there is a fundamental disrespect that underlies those theories. That those of in therapy will never be well enough, whole enough, or emotionally healthy enough to decide for ourselves whether a relationship would be good for us. Perhaps WHILE in the throes of a powerful transference, a person could not decide for his or herself, but to extend the prohibition on a romantic relationship after the end of therapy and the issues have been worked through is fundamentally disrespectful of the client and his or her emotional and intellectual strength.

I know someone who married his therapist. It trashed HER life, and she lost friends and her career. BUT they are still happily married 15+ years later. I know of another person who has been living with her former therapist for several years and seems very happy. When judging the ratios of how many of these relationships end badly, we know the numerator, because we hear about the relationships that end badly. We do not know the denominator, because there is no way way of knowing the total number of these relationship. The second couple I mentioned do not tell most people how they met because of the disapproval in the mental health community.