Is a full frontal embracing hug from T after every session inherently wrong?

Yes, she crossed the line and I'm sure she did not mean to. I know in my heart that she meant well. Yes, I'm going to a male T tomorrow, I can't let my stubbornness do me in. That is one of the reasons I am so upset about what happened. I am worried about how the incident affects her. I still can't be mad at her, because for 10 years she was very kind and helpful. She's a smart woman, but very naive I think. When I revealed to her how I felt about her and the hugs I think she went into panic mode; worrying about her professional reputation and feeling humiliated and maybe even betrayed by me.

I'm very glad you're seeing a new male T tomorrow. In fact, I'm breathing a sigh of relief for you. I hope this new T helps you process this whole terrible scenario!!

No, I don't think she had any idea about the effect that would have on you. And I will explain why in a moment...

But, first... let me explain what T SHOULD have realized. In my opinion, your T should have exercised healthy boundaries by stopping you when you said things like "I want to kiss you" or "I want to see your legs without the desk blocking them" and "you're a goddess-- and talked about transference at THAT point. She should have gotten to the bottom of why you were saying those things, because those things sound sexually aggressive. In my view, those comments are MUCH more inappropriate and sexually evocative than a hug. I think her reactions to those comments (or lack thereof) is where she failed you as a T-- not by giving you hugs. I think there is a line between comments like "You look nice today, T" which sounds pretty innocent (I mean, I've said that to my T and vice versa) vs. "I want to kiss you." I can't imagine ever saying that to a T unless I actually wanted to kiss her! So, I think that's where your T should have said "wait, that sounds like transference, we need to talk about that. We also need to talk about boundaries. It's okay to have the feeling of wanting to kiss someone (we can't control our feelings) but we need to talk about acceptable ways to express those feelings and how to work through them."

Now let me explain why I don't think your T would have had any idea the hugs were an issue...

While I realize that your work with your current T is done-- and she handled the whole situation poorly-- I think it might be helpful to get a little bit of a female perspective on some of this, just for yourself. Speaking as a woman, most women don't think about their breasts when they give hugs. We just don't think "gee, my breasts are pressed tightly against his/her torso." I hug my female T, my male department chair, my dad, and the little girl I mentor, all the same way. I don't THINK about the fact that my chest is touching the other person. I don't view it as any different from the fact that my arm is touching them as well. It's just that, since a woman's chest is on the front of her body, it happens to touch the other person in the course of a hug--it is not typically viewed as erotic. Speaking on a purely sensory level, it does nothing for the woman (i.e. the owner of the breasts). Unless the person already has sexual feelings for the person they are hugging, a hug just doesn't feel sexual/arousing. Hugs usually feel warm and friendly and comforting. Only pre-exiting feelings of attraction typically get activated during a hug. I also think men view breasts differently than women do; women (even lesbians like myself) just don't see breast as a big deal or as a necessarily sexual part of the body. Sometimes they are, but not usually in the context of a hug.

I think, perhaps, what your T reacted to when she read your letters was the shock of realizing that something she saw as an innocent gesture of kindness, was interpreted by you as being sexually arousing. As a woman, there have been a few times when I've had male acquaintances tell me that they have perceived my gestures of kindness as a "sign" of sexual interest. Those kinds of disclosures can feel sexually aggressive, violating, and scary. Perhaps that was your T's initial response? There's just a cultural thing in our society about being a woman, alone in a room with a man who she views warmly and platonically, and finding out that he has perceived all of these gestures sexually. It can make the woman feel very vulnerable and fearful. Obviously, I don't think that was your intention. Moreover, since she is a T, she should be trained to handle these kinds of situations without reacting that way. But I think what may have happened is that her "T hat" went out the window, and she reacted as a female friend or colleague might. I don't think she reacted badly out of a fear of being reported or damaging her professional reputation (I don't think she did anything to be reported for); it sounds like she was probably caught totally off guard, felt afraid/violated, and realized that she had no idea how to handle the situation professionally (in over her head). Of course, I don't KNOW-- these are just my educated guesses. While I find it highly unprofessional of her to have reacted the way she did and terminated you outright, I do think it is ethical for her to choose to terminate a client if she feels that she is beyond her skillset, if the client is triggering her own personal issues and, as a result, she cannot treat the client effectively. However, if this were the case, she should have first sought supervision (to see if, with guidance, she could continue treating the client effectively), or she should have given you a number of 'wrap-up' sessions in which she reflected on the positive work you did together over the last 10 years, and she should have made it clear that she was terminating for her own reasons, and made it clear that it was not your fault.

That being said, I think there are still things you can learn from the situation (like we all can) which may be helpful in the future. Hindsight is always 20/20 and while I think you did so many things right by being brave enough to tell T about the transference and ask to work through it, I think it may have been helpful to have approached her about it without using an aggressive tone, blaming her, and saying that she facilitated the erotic transference by her actions (like hugs). It sounds like the erotic transference was already there on your end; the hugs didn't cause it. I think you would have felt the transference and it would have grown whether or not she gave you hugs. The hugs gave you something to fixate on, but it sounds like you already had other things going on (looking at her legs, wanting to kiss her, etc). I don't think the transference was anyone's fault-- yours or hers. I think it just happens sometimes. While she should have been able to handle the transference regardless, I think she may have responded more positively if you had approached her more gently and told her your feelings without blaming her, saying that she should have known the hugs were inappropriate. I realize that this does not help you now, with this situation-- but, in future situations, it may be helpful to think about how to resolve conflicts (with anyone) by approaching them calmly and honestly without laying blame or being aggressive. It may also be helpful to understand how that kind of aggressiveness might come across to women. Ideally, a T would be able to work with that anyway, as therapy should be a safe place to explore our reactions and behaviors without fear of judgment or being termnated. But, unfortunately, since your T didn't have those skills, maybe you can find a way to use the forum to learn what you might have learned had you been able to explore this and work through it with T.

Good for you; I think seeing a male T is great step! I hope that he will be able to help you work through your transference with your old T as well as help you continue to work on the reasons why sought therapy initially. I'm so glad to hear that you are not giving up on therapy; there are good Ts out there!

I would say tho that the female of the species can be as sexually aggressive as the male, and that sis' comments could be applied to either gender. I think it's more a person's insistence that it's not transference, that it's a true attraction, that it has nothing to do with therapy, that indicates a person's willingness and or ability to process and use these feelings in the service of the therapeutic analysis or analytical therapy. If it's "just" therapy, maybe the depth won't be there.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. AS I have said before 'chatting' with you and others on the forum is a God send. I think I will up grade my mood that's to you.

Guilty confession. I would pay good money to get a full frontal hug from my T. I know, I know hat is so inappropriate. I know it is unethical to want to get hugs from your T because of your transference issues.

I am suffering because of such hugs; we must be careful what we wish for!

I found that T's sometimes take everything we say very literally. It appears that your T may have done that with many of your jokes, taken them literally, rather than as humor.

It definitely sounds like your T panicked and could not handle the transference issues. Whether receiving hugs from your T was wrong is hard to say. There are no ethical restrictions against it according to the APA, but in your opinion, you may think it's wrong. I don't think it's wrong at all. What I think is that your T could have handled the situation better and rather than abruptly dumped you, took two or three sessions to address the issue, let you know she could not work with you anymore and provide some sense of closure while referring you to a new T.

As you noted, it is possible that your T may have experienced the same feelings you have once you admitted your transference to her (hence her reaction). It may be that she was worried about the consequences of continuing to work together.

If you are really hurting by her actions, have you thought about sending an email to her, just telling her some of what you told us? For example, letting T know that you are not mad at her, telling her that you are hurt, but understand her actions, and have moved on? Even if she doesn't respond, that may provide some closure for you. It's great you are moving forward and continuing to get help. I'm sure your former T will be able to take care of herself and get the help she needs to resolve any issues she is experiencing as a result of this.

Hang in there....

Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I may send my former T a letter after some time. I think she can't handle transference issues that are erotic in nature and is embarrassed and humiliated that I attributed the unbearably of the trans to her well meaning hugs. Especially in that she has met my wife and they shared mutual respect. But, never the less I paid her to be the strong one and she wimped out and it messed me up after ten years of providing me with kindness over the loss of my son and the long term depression. Thanks again.

May I respectfully say that your comment appears to be based on a complete, and reckless disregard for the facts. For instance my question was not about her motives for the hugs. It was ' ..... are full frontal hugs inherently unethical' I have stated more than once in my comments that I thought that she meant well, re the hugs. I did say she was 'naive.. it went over her head..', no condemnation. But, existing transference not withstanding, she should not have hugged me and I am now the worse off for it. She's the pro, she did something that was harmful to me and she shouldn't have risked doing so by hugging me especially in that way. Until that began I had been coping ok with it.
An example of her reactions to my so called 'sexually aggressive' comments; when I told her that I was happy that I would get to see her legs during the session (no desk, moving to new office) , she replied 'ok, next week Ill pull my chair out from my new desk'. I wonder how you are able to determine that I was aggressive while she seemed to get a kick out of it. I advised her of my trans... in a letter in which I expressed my love, appreciation and a deep attachment to her. It was the use of the words 'love' and attachment' that were my undoing. The relationship only became adversarial when she made it clear that she was dumping me; and in uncharacteristically callous tones. I was not sexually aggressive as I verbally manifested my trans....! According to my new T the hugs she gave me were absolutely 'unethical'! When I asked my wife about that type of hugging she emphatically stated that 'Im the only one that you should hug like that'! I'm not sure what you mean by 'cultural' differences; The women in my life, both family and friends, don't perceive a 'cultural' divide between themselves and men. Your saying that I was aggressive in my comments is ill informed, judge-mental. She seemed to relish in my flirtatious comments. However, she should have, and I wish she had recognize that it was a cue to help me work through the transference that was causing me much distress. She only recognized that I was in the throws of transference when she read my letter clearly telling her so. It was not me to have learned a lesson from the ordeal; she's the pro and she had all the power in that environment and she should have and could have steered the therapy and the transference in a more productive direction. The judgmental and critical tone in your comment hints of an agenda that is uncalled for and shows a lack of understanding of what I have gone through and what I am still going through. Uninformed judgement does not serve to support the hope of finding some comfort here at PC for the things that I have been (as we all have) struggling with for many years. Thanks, EH.

I agree, if my T had been willing or able to talk about it I'm sure it would have become non issue. Talking about let's the steam out and the trans... Is no longer supported by the mystique of not knowing why one has such feelings.

Where are you located that a therapist would tell you that hugs were "absolutely 'unethical'"? In the U.S., there is no ethical rule against hugging in any State that I have heard of.

I believe the OP is saying that THESE specific hugs that he was given were judged absolutely unethical by a new t. Not all hugs in general.

I am sorry for your pain and how things went down with your T. I would feel awful if my T terminated me over this. I think your T was wrong to terminate you. You needed to stay together to discuss and get through this (with no more hugging). She did not respond professionally to take care of your feelings and end therapy on a better note.

Please don't be offended but I don't believe full frontal hugs are inherently bad nor are they unethical. We are all adults and there was no way your T would know that these hugs were not good for you, unless you told her. Some people are touchy feely without thinking it is a bad thing. A hug is not necessarily erotic. Women don't realize (I'm a woman) that men are feeling their breasts against their bodies and getting aroused during a hug. I would interpret a hug to be a caring gesture. I absolutely LOVE HUGS and can't get enough. Guess you can tell I've been deprived.

As someone else wrote on PC, hugs can be healing. They can ease pain and suffering. They bring comfort to people. Let's not outlaw the hug please.

BTW, has your wife hugged you today?

You specifically asked: My answer was that no, I do not think she had any idea what effect the hugs, or her breasts, would have on you. I was answering one of the many questions you posed. I brought up gender differences because I think it is worth noting that most women, in general, do not typically think about these things (their breasts/eroticism) while hugging. Hugs are usually thought of as comforting, supportive, and reassuring. That is why I was making the argument that I think your blame seems to be misplaced. You are blaming everything on the hugs and, in my opinion, the hugs were not "unethical," nor were they the cause of the rupture/termination. The erotic transference existed before the hugs; the termination happened because she didn't know how to manage the erotic transference. The hugs were not the cause of either of these.

You say that you were not aggressive, but I was going off of what you said here:


It sounds to me like you were angry and you blamed her for hugging you, and you told her that she caused your transference. I was suggesting that, perhaps, you could have approached her in a different manner, without the anger/blame. A T cannot "cause" you to have erotic transference. You also say that the transference was there before the hugs, the hugs merely added to it.

I realize that you have already made your mind up about the hugs and about blaming her for the hugs. I simply disagree that she "should have known" that the hugs would be harmful for you. Since you didn't tell her about the hugs when they started, she had no way of knowing. Should she have picked up on the transference-- yes. But the hugs? I don't think that was obvious. You also say:

So, if she had asked you (which I do think she probably should have), it seems that would not have helped because you would have told her that you liked the hugs.

First of all, your tone towards me (and other posters) shows a bit of anger. I'm guessing that came out with your T as well during the transference/termination conversations. I think it's normal to feel angry, but when you're trying to work through something difficult, responding with anger is not always conducive to resolution.

Anyway, the comments that i interpreted as "sexually aggressive" are the ones you used below. In your posts, in general, you talk a LOT about her breasts-- if you talked about her breasts TO her in your letter or in your conversation, using this kind of language/description, I think that can be interpreted as sexually aggressive. I'm imagining that in the letter you reference, about how you interpreted your hugs, that you mentioned all of these incidents, similar to how you did in your posts. If that is true, I think that is somewhat sexually aggressive. But perhaps I only think you mentioned these things, and you didn't?

You also say that she "got a kick out of" your sexual comments to her, and that she "relished the flirtation." I think for her to get a kick out of or relish your comments, they had to be sexually charged. Did she like that? Maybe at the time she did! Or, maybe she was naive and they flew over her head. I don't know. But, apparently, there was something in your letters that she didn't respond well to. What was it? I don't know. I thought it might be the way you described the hugs (talking about her breasts) and how you blamed her for inciting sexual feelings in you, when she should have known better. I think that kind of an accusation can come off as aggressive.

But, like I said from the beginning, I think YOUR T HANDLED IT BADLY. She should not have terminated you for your disclosure. She should have worked through the transference with you. So, I AM SORRY YOU ARE GOING THROUGH THIS SITUATION. I really do hope that your new T can help you recover from this painful process.

FINAL NOTE:

I know what it's like to have transference for a T, so I actually can relate to some of your feelings. I had those feelings for my ex-T, and she gave me full hugs. For me, they were not a problem. It's different for everyone. Unlike you, I didn't have the courage to tell her about my transference. I was thinking about telling her-- but then I found out she was leaving (switching jobs) in 2 weeks! When she left, she referred me to a new T, and I told my new T about the transference for my old T, and I resolved my feelings about it with my new T. I hope that you can do the same with your new T. There really can be a rainbow at the end of this journey.

Your therapist handled this poorly unless there's much more to the story than I'm hearing. It's her sole function to help you heal and grow, she should not take you on as a client and get through 10 years of a relationship with you, without being able to manage her reactions to you and to work through transference. Did she even try? Did it escalate more than you've alluded to here?

When I was about... 17, I saw a therapist and was working through sexual abuse and other difficult issues. I was bisexual and she was a lesbian. I began asking her for hugs. I began eroticizing them, unintentionally. I would get turned on during the long embraces she gave me, it was very uncomfortable. That therapy ended terribly, actually, she violated my confidentiality and it was a deeply negative experience, so I feel for you. In retrospect, though she was kind and tried to be helpful, she simply was not competent with me.

I agree with Nicole for the most part, but I don't think regular hugs are okay with a therapist. A full-frontal embracing hug is a physical intimacy that has no place in a therapist's office. (The only time I hugged my therapist was when she was leaving on maternity leave. I'm female.)

Your former therapist was obviously not there when boundaries in therapy were being discussed. She crossed a huge boundary then blamed you for misinterpreting it. She is a very poor therapist and you are well rid of her.

Please find someone new and ask them about such behavior. If they say that therapist was WRONG, you've found someone worth working with. I'm so sorry that you had to go through such a bad experience with someone you were supposed to be able to trust implicitly. Shame on her.

You are worthy of help and worthy of being able to discuss ANY feeling with a good therapist. Please don't give up.

Early Human,
I don't think it's inherently wrong to hug, but perhaps it was poor judgement on her part. I find it interesting that you say she fired you. You can fire her, but she cannot "fire" you unless you have done something abhorrent. If she was smart about it, she would have backed off, apologized for misreading your feelings, and proceeded to talk about those feelings in your sessions. I have been obsessively in love with my T for over five years, and we have talked about it profusely. We have never touched in any way, not even a handshake. She doesn't smile at me for fear that I might confuse kindness for affection.