[UglyDucky]

For those going through ET now and those who have gone through ET w/their T and resolved the ET, do Ts understand how painful the ET is? Or should it be painful? I don't want to write what my thoughts are, simply in order to avoid influencing others' opinions or responses. (I'm posting w/out my forum name, but have been a member for almost two years and will keep all information confidential to any outside person.) Anyone is welcome to PM me if that feels more comfortable.

Thanks for any insights or opinions people may have.

[UglyDucky]

Well, remaining anonymous didn't work.

[DodgersMom]

i don't have ET but i've talked to my T about it anyway, as its a worry of mine, thanks to the forums lol.... he does not seem too phased by it and I think a lot of stories I've seen online, reflect that so I'd say no, i dont think most really get it....

i also don't think they understand how painful it is for some people to wait a whole week between sessions, let alone longer

[smileygal]

I feel like my T understands how painful it is or if not pretends or tries to understand at least which is good enough for me. I imagine that some of those T's that have been through their own therapy may have even experienced it themselves so really know what it feels like. Some of them may only be more aware of it from just reading about it in a paper or even whilst at a conference so not really have a true sense of what it is like. Lots seem to have no idea at all though!

[UglyDucky]

Originally Posted by smileygal

I feel like my T understands how painful it is or if not pretends or tries to understand at least which is good enough for me. I imagine that some of those T's that have been through their own therapy may have even experienced it themselves so really know what it feels like. Some of them may only be more aware of it from just reading about it in a paper or even whilst at a conference so not really have a true sense of what it is like. Lots seem to have no idea at all though!

My T has gone through the training, boundaries are solid, respect for the subject matter is in tact...but T doesn't understand why these feelings are painful. I have read only one professional article that intimated many clients feel closer to their Ts when they finally understand the feelings behind the feelings. We're getting nowhere and I'm not sure I can or want to continue this line of therapy unless my T can say, yes, she understands how agonizing ET can be. (Sigh) We may have a rupture over this - neither of us seems willing to give what's needed for an understanding.

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by UglyDucky

My T has gone through the training, boundaries are solid, respect for the subject matter is in tact...but T doesn't understand why these feelings are painful. I have read only one professional article that intimated many clients feel closer to their Ts when they finally understand the feelings behind the feelings. We're getting nowhere and I'm not sure I can or want to continue this line of therapy unless my T can say, yes, she understands how agonizing ET can be. (Sigh) We may have a rupture over this - neither of us seems willing to give what's needed for an understanding.

I'm not fully sure what you mean when you say she doesn't understand but yet respects the subject matter. When you tell her having these feelings are painful does she act surprised or not understanding? That doesn't sound very helpful on her part. Is there something in particular you want/need her to say?

[lucozader]

No, I don't think most of them do, not fully. I think you have to have experienced it yourself to really understand. If we can manage to get it across to them (something I find pretty difficult) they should still be able to empathise, though. Ts have to empathise with lots of feelings and experiences that they haven't had themselves.

I really relate to your description of your situation with your T actually, Ducky.

[ramonajones]

I had a very weird and awful experience with my ET, but it seems to me that there isn't a lot of training around this and no, I don't think that that most Ts understand how excruciating it is.

[smileygal]

Yes, It does seem that a lot of T's are not trained properly how to deal with it.... Not sure if they would answer but maybe it's a good question people should ask when they have an initial consultation with a new T if it's something that has happened before or something that they are worried about....Maybe asking how they deal with attachments or what their opinions on it are should it arise.??. It seems to be the cause of so many bad experiences on it that finding out a T doesn't 'believe' in it or brushes past it may be a warning bell.

[UglyDucky]

Originally Posted by smileygal

I'm not fully sure what you mean when you say she doesn't understand but yet respects the subject matter. When you tell her having these feelings are painful does she act surprised or not understanding? That doesn't sound very helpful on her part. Is there something in particular you want/need her to say?

T asks why the feelings are painful? On the other hand, she is respectful of my erotic feelings (is present, focused, remains very quiet, keeps eye contact, etc). I'm beginning to wonder if this might be her way of trying to get me to think about why these feelings are painful for me. Fantasies and loving thoughts of others should bring us pleasure, warmth. The disconnect may be that while ET feelings, themselves, are usually pleasurable, knowing those feelings will never by reciprocated is what might cause pain (or does in my case...?) Confusing, huh?

[UglyDucky]

Originally Posted by smileygal

I'm not fully sure what you mean when you say she doesn't understand but yet respects the subject matter. When you tell her having these feelings are painful does she act surprised or not understanding? That doesn't sound very helpful on her part. Is there something in particular you want/need her to say?

Another thought...perhaps my T is thinking that erotic feelings should not be painful unless the client associates them w/an erotic or sexual painful event from their childhood...or as an adult. Somehow, this thought doesn't make sense to me, though.

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by UglyDucky

T asks why the feelings are painful? On the other hand, she is respectful of my erotic feelings (is present, focused, remains very quiet, keeps eye contact, etc). I'm beginning to wonder if this might be her way of trying to get me to think about why these feelings are painful for me. Fantasies and loving thoughts of others should bring us pleasure, warmth. The disconnect may be that while ET feelings, themselves, are usually pleasurable, knowing those feelings will never by reciprocated is what might cause pain (or does in my case...?) Confusing, huh?

I totally understand this.... on one level the feelings I have for T should make me feel good. My T even said once I should just try to enjoy the feelings... it's impossible to enjoy them though as they are more painful than pleasureable. Knowing that it's not 'real' and that they will never be reciprocated is what makes them so. My T has also asked why they are painful. My response is usually because they will never be reciprocated.

Originally Posted by UglyDucky

Another thought...perhaps my T is thinking that erotic feelings should not be painful unless the client associates them w/an erotic or sexual painful event from their childhood...or as an adult. Somehow, this thought doesn't make sense to me, though.

Not sure what your T thinks but it's really common for clients with certain backgrounds to associate love with pain, so what you said here makes sense to me. If you grew up always wanting to be loved by your parents (which you may have not been conscious of-which comes out in T), which is normal/reasonable when unloved/neglected, it could cause alot of emotional pain. Maybe she's trying to get to the root of your issues by accessing the past source(s) of your pain.

I think some Ts understand how painful it can be, but most likely those who also didn't get their needs met in the past (which seems to be common among Ts). I also am not sure if it's good for your mind/body/spirit to constantly feel pain from being in therapy. It has to do some damage over time. This is primarily why I think it isn't necessarily a good thing to 'work through' ET for a prolonged period of time.

[UglyDucky]

Blanche - I understand your concern re: working through ET over a long period of time. My T and I have only been "hashing" this out in the past three weeks. I do have a childhood history of neglect and adult history of painful loss of love interest. I'm probably primed to see what should be pleasurable as painful. I do think getting to the root of this issue is important to me and my therapy, though. I guess my last thought does make sense for me after all.

I get it UD. I didn't mean to discourage you. I myself have dealt with these issues for a number of years in T. It just came out that way.

I am glad it is making sense to you now. It's a difficult truth.

As a t I can firmly say I do understand but only because I have been through the throes of ET so many times myself. It's so painful and heartbreaking. I only wish that therapists did understand but I can say that on my training I was the only t in training who had experienced it. The others tried to understand but I could see the looks of horror and judgement on their faces. I did my research on it this year for my degree and a lot of t s have had no training on it. We touched on it very briefly but nothing in depth. Having experienced it myself I am comfortable with a client bringing it to me. I am not afraid of it and would feel privileged if someone said they had feelings for me of course I know that it's not really about me it's more about us and our dynamic. I got terminated by my first t because of ET, my trainers this year said I should have put in a malpractice complaint but I was so heartbroken I just wanted to die. It's excruciatingly painful and it takes a lot of guts to bring it to your therapist. My research focussed on the therapists reactions and as I suspected none of them wanted to work with these clients. I feel so sad as i read that, as I looked into it further a lot of it was because they hadn't learnt anything about it in their training but also because they found it terrifying.

[lucozader]

To add to what Mona said above - my diploma course did not include training on erotic transference, in fact I can't remember it ever even being mentioned. I attempted a few times to talk with my classmates about my experience with it and they responded variously... With confusion, embarrassment, curiosity and shock - when I spoke in a triad once about my loving feelings for my T the peer who was meant to be 'counselling' me literally gasped in horror! We laughed about it but, yeah... What is her response going to be if a client expresses such feelings towards her?

[lucozader]

It's sad that our society places such a taboo on loving and sexual feelings that people (including therapists) are so terrified of them.

It's equally unhelpful that therapists aren't encouraged to discuss and think about their OWN sexuality. It needs to be something that we are comfortable to reflect on and discuss in supervision when necessary or it could have a terrible effect on our work. Repressed countertransference is dangerous.

Originally Posted by lucozader

To add to what Mona said above - my diploma course did not include training on erotic transference, in fact I can't remember it ever even being mentioned. I attempted a few times to talk with my classmates about my experience with it and they responded variously... With confusion, embarrassment, curiosity and shock - when I spoke in a triad once about my loving feelings for my T the peer who was meant to be 'counselling' me literally gasped in horror! We laughed about it but, yeah... What is her response going to be if a client expresses such feelings towards her?

It's actually frightening. Ts are supposed to be kind and considerate but this one thing that they can't hide their horror or even get to know what it's about for them. It baffles me

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

As a t I can firmly say I do understand but only because I have been through the throes of ET so many times myself. It's so painful and heartbreaking. I only wish that therapists did understand but I can say that on my training I was the only t in training who had experienced it. The others tried to understand but I could see the looks of horror and judgement on their faces. I did my research on it this year for my degree and a lot of t s have had no training on it. We touched on it very briefly but nothing in depth. My research focussed on the therapists reactions and as I suspected none of them wanted to work with these clients. I feel so sad as i read that, as I looked into it further a lot of it was because they hadn't learnt anything about it in their training but also because they found it terrifying.

thanks for sharing this information, but i find what you, and even lucozader, say about your experiences quite discouraging to hear. if these are the kinds of reactions that you were getting while in training to become therapists, then to me this indicates that there is very little hope that those clients who do experience ET with their T will get the proper help that they need and may even end up worse than when then they first started therapy because of a therapist's lack of training, ignorance, or incompetency to handle the ET. seems like a clients best hope is if they meet someone like you who has experienced this in therapy themselves, and from what you guys indicate, this seems rare.

i'm curious though, is there anything proactive that you guys can do or have tried to do as Ts who have experince this very phenomenon and the overall unhelpful reactions to it and bring more awareness to it within the profession?

[feileacan]

There is actually this whole group of therapists who generally seem to be very out of fashion for some reason but who are actually trained in these things and who have experienced transferences themselves. These are psychoanalysts who are required as part of their training to go through their own personal analysis at least four years with several hours per week. This time is enough to experience all sorts of feelings towards one's T. I'm pretty sure that in addition to that, they have extensive theoretical training in that too. So it is not that all T's training is lacking in these terms.

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

thanks for sharing this information, but i find what you, and even lucozader, say about your experiences quite discouraging to hear. if these are the kinds of reactions that you were getting while in training to become therapists, then to me this indicates that there is very little hope that those clients who do experience ET with their T will get the proper help that they need and may even end up worse than when then they first started therapy because of a therapist's lack of training, ignorance, or incompetency to handle the ET. seems like a clients best hope is if they meet someone like you who has experienced this in therapy themselves, and from what you guys indicate, this seems rare.


i'm curious though, is there anything proactive that you guys can do or have tried to do as Ts who have experince this very phenomenon and the overall unhelpful reactions to it and bring more awareness to it within the profession?

I agree, it is very discouraging and instantly I knew that these four other ts would do a lot of damage is someone was to express their feelings towards them. Even though I had explained that that was exactly how my t had reacted with disgust and rejection, the empathy was gone.
By doing my research on this subject I hope that it will bring to attention that there is a clear lack of training and I feel it was proactive for now anyway. It did highlight that there was a real problem and how different trainings ignore this problem.
I wrote about the damage a therapist can do and how sometimes they encourage it. I am not sure if this is consciously or unconsciously, but they do encourage it. Mostly by fostering attachment to feed their own egos.
I think that even by talking to other ts can help. It certainly did with my trading this year and my tutor has a lot of experience in trying with it. She summed it up beautifully, she said "sure, why wouldn't they, we are all sexual beings, and what a gorgeous compliment"!

Originally Posted by lucozader

It's sad that our society places such a taboo on loving and sexual feelings that people (including therapists) are so terrified of them.

It's equally unhelpful that therapists aren't encouraged to discuss and think about their OWN sexuality. It needs to be something that we are comfortable to reflect on and discuss in supervision when necessary or it could have a terrible effect on our work. Repressed countertransference is dangerous.

I agree it is dangerous and that was highlighted in my research too that sometimes therapists don't and can't bring issues like this to their supervisor because of different dynamics- male female, fear of judgement. Fear of being unprofessional.
I gave to say, I have been blessed with two of my therapists because they were so open and non judgemental and really encourage me to bring the not so good stuff( their words, not mine) .
You are very right lucazador, discovering your own sexuality is so important and often so hard, I wonder is some ts are afraid to explore it in case they find something uncomfortable or messy in there.

[CriesAndGoodbyes]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

I agree it is dangerous and that was highlighted in my research too that sometimes therapists don't and can't bring issues like this to their supervisor because of different dynamics- male female, fear of judgement. Fear of being unprofessional.
I gave to say, I have been blessed with two of my therapists because they were so open and non judgemental and really encourage me to bring the not so good stuff( their words, not mine) .
You are very right lucazador, discovering your own sexuality is so important and often so hard, I wonder is some ts are afraid to explore it in case they find something uncomfortable or messy in there.

I had a crazy experience with ET with my T, it was a recipe for disaster right off the bat because we were the same age, the opposite sex and in for incredibly long, somewhat experimental sessions. When it finally hit and I confessed my ET, it was crazy.... T sent a lot of mixed messages about it. I am so disappointed that there aren't more widely available T's who specialize in helping someone deal with an ET. If anyone here knows of any T's who are well versed, experienced and open to trying to really help someone work on an ET they have/had with a different T.... who can work via skype (regardless of fees because that's not an issue) Please PM me and provide their contact details because I'm desperately searching for someone who can help me make sense of a traumatic ET with a T whom I ended things with nearly a year ago and still struggle with. Any recommendations, help or advice is much appreciated. Anyone and everyone is welcome to PM me. Even if it's just to share our experiences or ask questions or offer tips and coping strategies, that'd be great.

[UglyDucky]

Originally Posted by feileacan

There is actually this whole group of therapists who generally seem to be very out of fashion for some reason but who are actually trained in these things and who have experienced transferences themselves. These are psychoanalysts who are required as part of their training to go through their own personal analysis at least four years with several hours per week. This time is enough to experience all sorts of feelings towards one's T. I'm pretty sure that in addition to that, they have extensive theoretical training in that too. So it is not that all T's training is lacking in these terms.

I know of one group of psychoanalysts that go through this training...can you specify the group or groups you know about? I hesitate to name the one I know of only because my T is one who has had this training, but the group has moved to another city and it feels a bit 'off' by outing them. Generally speaking, it's rather sad that there seems no way for clients to know whether or not a T has experience and training in ET before jumping in.