How could one's Belief be so strong

in a GOD that you have no proof exsists.

I do not want to start a fight or an argument of any kind. I just have a few statements/observations I would like to make.

I was baptised Catholic, and raised that way for only the first 5 years of my life, until my parents up and moved away from their parents, which I beleive now, any religeous influence was directly from my grandparents through my parents and passed on to me and my sister.

Once we were separted from that, there was no mention of any religious topic of any sort in my household again. I suppose this is where my conflicting views come in. Because of my anxiety, depression and obsessional thoughts keep me from talking in great detail about certain religious aspects for fear of being cursed in some way or another. This conflicts with the other side of me who feels that I should have no fear as GOD does not exsist.

I suppose some of the feelings I do have regarding religion stem from what I was taught as a child, wether good, bad, right or wrong. I feel that that is permanately instilled in me and that causes alot of anxiety for me. It's almost as if I dont want to say anything "too bad" about GOD but at the same time, I am a person that deals in facts, for the most part. So, a huge part of me struggles with realy beleiving that GOD does exist.

How do you know? How can your faith be so strong that you know with out a shadow of a doubt that he exists? or how do you know that you will end up in heaven when it's all said and done? How do you know that when you die, thats it.....your finished...there is no afterlife.

I dunno, I struggle with this. Good and bad. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I can not help the way I feel, or think.

Jen

PS. forgine my spelling errors.

Don't have an answer for you just yet. Just want you to know that I've read your post and am giving it serious thought as how to explain my faith, ok?

Yes, I realize that this post wont produce immediate answers because I know it is a complex subject that is explained differently by everyone.

Thank you for reading the post and thinking about it before answering.

(((((((((((((Mama Tomi)))))))))))

Thank you

I would never turn away a true seeker of truth! You see, there IS proof...but the best proof is when you are finally able to experience God's indwelling... hopefully this discussion thread will lead you to find that experience.

My best friend growing up was Catholic. Did you know that the Catholic church used to insist that if the parents would give them their children for the first 3 years of life, then the Catholic church would have them "forever?" They knew the premise of early training.

I'm sorry that something is making you feel ill at ease. I hope I can continue to help you to find something that works for you.

There is proof of God. Are you open even to that? Can you allow yourself to entertain the notion? This is a good beginning.

You ask me, how can i believe in something that is not proven?

I guess I just do. Everyone always has to have proof...but im pretty sure if they ever did find proof..how many people do you think would try and challenge it and make it false. See, i could be wrong and anyone here who knows differently please correct me, God, in my perspective, doesnt want to have to give proof...you know? Its like you coming on here and saying you have lets say for example only that you have DID, not saying you do, but for an example only, would you want us to question you, Do you really have this...we cant be sure because how do we know your T isnt really just your best friend...you know? Now thats pretty watered down..but you get the gist. Anyway, Part of religion is believing, faith is not always science. To tell you the direct truth about what i believe, i believe there is no single right religion, i believe everyone has the right idea, that its one big puzzle and because of cultural differences and backrounds the puzzle looks more like puzzle peices. Think of that. Notice how alot of religions have a God, or leader..like Buddha...or the multiple Gods...what if their Buddha was actually our Jesus, just in a different location, because it was told by a different cultural people. What if their multiple Gods represented our Angels, our Demons, our Satan and our God, everyhting represents something...just because it looks different on the outside doesnt neccessarily mean its different on the inside. I do believe in Jesus Christ, That He is our Savior, that is my belief. But the question really should be...do you respect other beliefs with equality to come to the conclusion that what ever you believe may be part of a bigger picture. Whatever suits you to allow yourself to be a good person. You have your education on religion, no one hear or there can tell you based on proof or no proof what to believe. Believe in yourself, in others and something will come along for you. If you decide its not what you had in mind, then so be it, I can only educate you the best way about Jesus and God through reading the Bible and Scriptures and all of that...but I suggest you take this effort of going down many paths and finding the one that curves just perfectly for you. May you have all the luck and courage and oppertunity. And in my words, God Bless you.

jmo,

To understand some answers to your question, you might want to check into memetics.

Meme~a self replicating idea~ was a word coined in 1976 by Richard Dawkins,
MEME: (pron. `meem') A contagious information pattern that replicates by symbiotically infecting human minds and altering their behavior, causing them to propagate the pattern. (Term coined by Dawkins, by analogy with "gene".) Individual slogans, catch-phrases, melodies, icons, inventions, and fashions are typical memes. An idea or information pattern is not a meme until it causes someone to replicate it, to repeat it to someone else. All transmitted knowledge is memetic. (Wheelis, quoted in Hofstadter.) (See meme-complex).

http://www.rubinghscience.org/memeti...kinsmemes.html
http://users.lycaeum.org/~sputnik/Memetics/

I'm presently struggling through this book on the subject:
http://www.churchofvirus.org/book_ddi.html
the link has some lexicon pages that define a number of pertanent ideas.

Hope you're well, luv yah babe~Down

Jen, I've been wracking my brain for the words that I want to say to you but maybe I'm thinking too much.

I was raised in a Protestant home and was duly indoctrinated, albeit with some major flaws in thinking. I suppose that the early indoctrination was such that the basic beliefs just stayed with me throughout life.

I raised my kids in the church because that was "the right thing to do." We've all made like pendulums and swung from one end of the spectrum to the other. There was even a time when I thought God didn't exist.

My basic beliefs have never really left me, though. And at this late date, I have all the "proof" I need to know that God exists and He payed the ultimate price to buy me back by sending his Son, Jesus, to live and die on Earth.

"Proof" and "Faith" are individual things. They aren't tangible and not "a mind thing." The Bible says "For we walk by faith and not by sight." I can give you a long list of things that prove to me that God exists and that He loves me, but I seriously doubt that it will mean much to you... maybe it will.

Creation being the very first "proof" that God exists. The Universe and all it's intricancies could no way have happened by accident. If there was a Big Bang, then God caused it. The development of seeds into a specific plant/animal/human is more proof to me. But what really counts is the everyday presence of God's will in my life, His answers to my prayers although sometimes He says "No" or "not at this time." In the end, I see why He said "No." REF my response to Pilatus in Relationships.

Like I said, I can list all my "proof" if you ask for it, but it's up to you whether you believe or not. I chose to, by all means!

I feel the best proof for me is prayer. I don't mean just a prayer but a true heartfelt prayer. One the comes from deep within our hearts. When we pray seeking God and his love we feel this overwhelming calmness. I have prayed for certain things in my life that eventually I got or it happened. Like with our house and my husband's new job.

When you see results from the praying then I think you will believe there really is a God that is all powerful.

Jen,

Two links that were broken and I couldn't find before might save you some time learning about, how lots of scientists think we believe things.

Dawkin's writes about his friend's 6 year old daughter, who wants to grow up to be the tooth fairy, being sent to a nun for instruction, against his will.
http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Daw...-the-mind.html

What seems to be a good overveiw of meem/meme theory of belief is here:
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/M...cycle.html#ABS

Be well~Down

This is the first chance I have been able to get back to this post. Before I reply, I will need time to collect my thoughts (that may take a while).

I do want to reply to each and will do so when I can get myself together.

I'm gonna take a chance here and share some pretty personal stuff. But its the only way I know to answer your question as far as myself is concerned. This will be long.....here goes.

I too was raised Catholic. I had to go to church with my parents, I took communion and all that. But I never "felt" it. It was too depressing for me. Hell-fire and sins and all that. I had to go to catacism school and learn all the stuff that would send me to hell. And it was so structured! I liked the outfit I got to wear for first communtion though, haha.

I just never caught on to it. Never believed because I couldn't. I couldn't believe that book written by man showed to proof of a god. As I grew up, I tried to find something to have faith in. I even studied Wicca. But even that was too structured, and there were people telling me what to believe. I became more of a pagan, turning my spirituality to nature, feeling at home and peacefull near trees, looking at the moon for comfort. But it still wasn't something I could put my faith into.

As you know, I became a very heavy drinker in my 20's. I used to hang out in the chat room here drunk. Alcohol became all I cared about. If I couldn't drink, I was miserable. I could go into the things to that happened to me when I drank....but you'd have to censor it. Lets just say is was pure misery. I only went out if I had money to buy booze, or there were people there who could buy it for me. I drove my car. I don't know how I never killed anyone. Never got a DUI. I slept around. I don't know how I never pregnant, never got a disease. I couldn't keep jobs. Don't know how I always had a place to live. I never had to sleep on the street.

One night, I was drinking heavily with a friend and the thought just crossed my mind that I should stop. The next day I did. I started going to meetings to quit drinking, and have been sober since April 24, 2005.

Now...I was talking to someone in that first week sober as I trembled, detoxing, not sleeping, not eating, but alas not drinking....and I was telling him about how I just suddenly decided to quit drinking. No one had told me I had a problem with alcohol. As I stated above, I hadn't killed anyone, hadn't gotten caught by the law etc. YET. It was that day that I realized someone or something put that thought in my head, the idea to quit drinking was put in my head while I was at a bar and someone was buying all my booze.

In my journey of staying sober, I have found that it is so much easier to turn everything over to something bigger. When I ran the show, my life was pure misery. My new friends all had a higher power, but here was what I loved. They all had their OWN conception of what a higher power for them was!!! No one was preaching, telling me I had to believe in this god or that god and this devil and that hell and yadayadayada. I realized that I could have whatever faith I wanted. No one was telling me what I had to believe in. So I just started to believe. I had to! My proof was myself!!!

I looked back over my life, all my near misses, how I was always taken care of through my irresponsibility. I was still alive. I used to the think the next turn of the road was my death. I used to think I'd never live to see 30. (2 years to go!!!)

That is my proof that SOMETHING exists. That I'm alive. That my friends are alive. I see proof every day that there's some guiding force, because I know I alone can't accomplish everything. I know when I have a problem and I turn it over, somehow it gets answered....

Now I don't know what it is that I believe in, here's where I agree with you. I have to proof of actually what it is, and won't until I die, and maybe not even then. Some days I believe my faith is merely my conscience, the part of me that knows right from wrong. Other days I don't think even I know the answer, so I "put it out in the universe". I say god because thats a universal word for a higher power, but I have no proof that it's god or a light source or a field of energy or my conscience......But I turn it over anyway, when I want to drink, I turn it over, and the obsession is lifted. When I'm sad, I do the same. When I apply for a job, once I've turned in that resume, its out of my hands. What takes care of it now? I don't know, but I believe that whatever happens will happen because that is what is supposed to happen for my life.

So....how can I believe? Because I am proof for myself. What do I believe in? I don't know, because there's no proof......I just believe. I know anytime I talk about spirituality for myself that its a bit confusing, but thats my story, LOL!!!!

All I know is that since coming into this faith, which is spiritual, NOT in anyway religious, I am so much more calm. I am so much happier. And life is so much easier when I can say ok god (or whatever my higher power is), I don't know what to do here, you take it!!!! The burden is now off my shoulder. Its spiritual and I can meditate anytime I want to, anywhere, I can just think, I need help with this.....or Wow I am so greatful right now.......I don't worship, I just talk.....and its so comforting.

And thats how it is for me. =)

~Rayna

I find the contents of these links offensive! They are in no way supportive for anyone looking for SPIRITUAL SUPPORT and they certainly DON'T answer Jen's question!

BTW, it isn't MY faith that sustains me, but the faith of Christ (according to Scripture.) How much stronger faith can one find???

Casting all your care upon Him, for He careth for you.



...waiting...

faith of a mustard seed

Jen,
Here's another rather long 'paper' from a slightly different perspective that directly, like the others I linked to, attempt to reply to your question.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...e=kurtz_19_3_1

Sept,
I'm sorry you feel offended by the content of those links, and don't see them as appropriate or supportive on questions of belief. Don't they offer logical explanations to your very objections? They are an attempt to be both.

I have felt a flood of relief when I was able to stop fighting the world and simply relax. This may be the relaxation response that seems so enjoyable in the face of all kinds of stresses.
I've found I don't need further explanations to access it, than the instant relief it can bring. I have also felt a strength from a confidence of my perspective, in other words 'knowing'. I find a balance to suit my situation is what I want to continuously seek.

~Down

First I want to say Thank you to all that replied, taking time to explain to me how YOU (individually) define faith and how you came to realize, at least for yourself how your faith is so strong and how YOU came to know He exsists.

I have always felt ill at ease when it comes to religion. Personally, I feel that I have kept an open mind on this subject. I have asked my step father about his religion (he is mormon). I have asked a co-worker about it, she is a buddist. I am curious about religion, all religion, and even more curious how it feels to know, without a doubt, in my heart how it would feel to to really know he exsists. I suppose I have never felt such a connection to something like that, ever. Nothing as strong as what you describe. I dunno. Even saying that freaks me out a little. I'm always afraid I will be punished for saying something wrong and I will be punished. So, if I am feeling that way, I must beleive he is real on some level, right? This is confusing, to me at least anyway. I guess I am looking for something to hold on to, something safe. I dont know. So many people fing GOD, or a higher power of some sort comforting, safe and peaceful. I just want to experience that and have no clue of how to go about it. I'm lost. It's like I want to beleive, but I don't know how too.

Despite my feelings, I have prayed before. Mostly during the time when I was at the bottom of my depression. I prayed so much and never were my prayers answered. I only wanted him to make my brain quiet down so I could sleep, even a hour would have been nice. But, it never happened.

Jen, read the book of John in the Bible in a newer version so that things are perfectly clear to you. IMO, the book of John is the best description of who Jesus is. Get to know the man... not the religion and all of it's dogmas. Faith is a very personal thing but you need to know Who you're putting your faith in first.

PS I prayed a lot during the worst of my depression and anxiety. I never got any answers then, either, that I could see. I'm a "tough old broad." Maybe God wanted me to exercise my spiritual and mental muscles and develop them.

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I just want to experience that and have no clue of how to go about it. I'm lost. It's like I want to beleive, but I don't know how too.

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My strong belief first comes from God's indwelling Spirit, for without Him I would have crashed long ago trying to rely upon my own strength, knowledge or actions. May I share how I came to know Christ?

Before I received eternal life, there was an emptiness inside of me.

I remember that, as a child, I went with my family -there were 8 of us - to church every week. So, for two hours a week, my entire childhood, I learned stories, songs, and verses about God. But there was still that emptiness and longing inside of me. It was many years before someone told me that knowing all that was good, but for that emptiness to go away, I needed to receive eternal life...and I did after hearing how.

Now that I have eternal life, that emptiness is goine. Let me share an example of how that "feels."

Not too long ago as I was travelling the turnpike, a dump truck pulled out into the lane inw which I was driving - right in front of me. Of course, we don't have hills in South Florida, but we were on an uphill grade like for an overpass, and that dump truck might as well have been stopped for as slowly as it was moving.

There was NO place for me to go! The traffic was being funnelled through a construction zone - two lanes, 60 mph, concrete barriers on the sides, no emergency lanes, and SOLID traffic.

I recall thinking in those fleeting seconds as I was braking and KNOWING, just knowing that I was going to plow into the back of that truck, "This is it. Lord, I'm coming home. This is it."

I've become more emotional telling you this story than I was when the incident occurred... because I had the peace that remains with me ..the emptiness is gone and I have the peace from knowing I have eternal life and the assurance that when I die, I will go to heaven.

You have come to a place in your life where you cannot say you have this saving faith. You can find this by transferring your trust to Christ alone. This is saving faith.

I can give you Scripture, which you probably learned, to share with each point here, if you wish, let me know.

What I learned is this:
<ul type="square">[*][*]Heaven is a free gift. It is not earned nor deserved.[*]Man is a sinner. We cannot save ourself. [*]God is merciful. He does not want to punish us. But He is just, and therefore must punish sin. God solved this problem in the person of Jesus Christ[*]Christ is the infinite God-man.He died on the cross and rose from the dead to pay the penalty for our sins and to purchase a place in heaven for us.[*]Faith is not mere head knowledge. It is not mere temporal faith. Saving faith is trusting in Christ alone for eternal life. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.[/list]
Does this make sense to you?
Let me clarify what receiving the gift of eternal life involves. It means you transfer your tust to Christ. You transfer your trust from what you have been doing to what Jesus Christ has done for you on the cross. You receive the resurrected and living Christ as Savior. He says, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him and he with Me." Jesus commands us to repent of our sin. That means a willingness to turn from what you have been doing that is not pleasing to Him as He reveals His will to you in His word. The gift of eternal life is received by faith. Prayer is one way of expressing saving faith in Christ.

If this is what you really want, speak to Him in prayer and tell Him so.

Father, I ask that you would give jmo faith to trust you, and repentance. That jmo would seek you and ask that you show her Your love through the saving grace of Christ. And I ask that the Holy Spirit will grant her assurance of this great gift you give.

John 6:47 He that trusts in Me alone for salvation, he that rests upon Me for eternal life, HAS eternal life.

God answers prayers in His time. not always when we want or need it but in His time. I had thought I knew how to pray til one night in church a minister told us how to pray. it comes from the heart. the very depths of our souls. we must humble ourselves and open up completely to Him. Once I learned that my prayers were answered most of the time.

I have learned from every post in this thread. I guess that I didn't understand what it is like for some who are raised with certain teachings and practices. There is more than one way that religion is taught. I think that some methods may be closer to brainwashing than they are to real teaching that allows a child to learn and explore and know for himself or herself. A child raised that way may have difficulty or be unable to develop faith on their own. I hope that the ability is still there, but it must be very hard.

When very young children, too young to make decisions and commitments and to know for themselves, are made to participate in religious rituals and are told that questioning it is very bad, those children don't develp faith. They develop fear.

But that doesn't mean that faith is wrong or that God isn't real or that people who believe have been brainwashed or misguided, etc. Forcing anyone to do anything has never been God's way. Those who use practices like that must have some reason. Maybe they were taught that way themselves, or maybe they are afraid that children won't make the right choices on their own. Fear doesn't lead to faith though.

The way that I was taught was so different. My mother is a believer and has always expressed her belief. We went to church every week, and I still do. My father's parents were also strong believers, and my father walked the walk from childhood. At some point, however, he stopped believing. I don't know why. He still goes to church, but he doesn't pay attention or participate. He sits there and reads science fiction or plays with his watch or calculator. I do feel that my father shows some autistic spectrum traits and could be diagnosable with asperger's disorder, so that could have something to do with his behavior. But from the time that I was little, my father refused to teach about the gospel, and he has been honest about that it is because he does not know that it is true. He is a good man and lives a good life, and he says that he hopes it is true, although he is open to other possibilities.

I have never felt pressured to believe. If anything, I have felt more pressure from my father to question and doubt. Even teachers and leaders in the church encouraged me and to question and to learn about other beliefs and to find out what is true for myself. I think that one of our most important teachings is that each person needs to find out for himself or herself, and not just lean on the testimony of others. I think that I tend to take that for granted.

But how do you find out for yourself? It takes time and it does take wanting to believe and being willing to work for it. First you have to understand what it is that you believe (or are considering believing). Study the scriptures and learn about God. Then pray to be given your own witness and testimony. If it is true, you will feel it. It might not come right away, and you might have to struggle for it, but it will come.

I have felt this the most when I was in a good place mentally and emotionally. There does seem to be something about depression that masks any kind of good feelings, including faith. I can't feel it when I'm in the pit, and I neglect doing the things that would help me to feel it again, such as studying the scriptures and praying. Music usually helps me, but even that can't reach me in the pit. I think that is because when I am there, I don't want anything that is good for me. I don't eat good food or sleep or take care of myself at those times either. God lets us make our own choices and he will not force us to do anything or to feel anything, even if it would be better than what we are choosing, because that is not his way.

I believe that we need God's help, and nothing that we could do would ever come close to being enough without his help. But at the same time, he expects us to do whatever we can. He will do for us what we can't do for ourselves, but not what we can do. And that is going to be different for each of us, as we are all different people with different strengths and abilities.

Prayers will be answered, and always heard, but as Bebop said, it will be in God's time and according to what he knows is best for us, and maybe not in the way that we think. There is evidence all around us. Sometimes it is just that we are still around to have another chance. Sometimes it is a miracle that happens in a mysterious way that you would have never expected but somehow it works. We can see these things when we look for them, but if we are not looking or if we doubt, then we won't see them.

Jen, I hope that this helps you. Sorry if I have rambled too much or if this was not what you wanted to know. You are asking good questions, and I hope that you will keep asking them, not only here but everywhere, until you find your answers.

Love To All,
Rap

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God answers prayers in His time. not always when we want or need it but in His time.

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Be, I'm sure you didn't mean this statement the way it reads to me, so forgive me for a slight correction, ok? I'm just not comfortable with it.

It's exactly correct that God answers in His own timing, but his timing is perfect. When He answers is when we NEED the answer to come though, so yes, He does answer when we NEED but not always when and what we want.

I just wish we could all have our own beliefs here. I really thought that was the point of this forum. I would never try to tell someone what they have to belive in or what to read.

(Sept...this was just a quick reply, not a specific reply to you. =) )

I think my belief comes from experiencing the world. When we look at the world seeing the good and the bad you have to wonder why we are put on this earth and what is our purpose. I beilieve in God and I also believe there is evil(satan).

Many people blame God when bad things happen, I do not. If everything was perfect we would all be in heaven and we are not in heaven we are on this earth. We have choices in this world and our choices can sometimes make things more difficult and sometimes bad things happen that we have no control of.

Having a serious heart problem and almost dying a few times, I can say someone wants me here and I believe we all have a purpose in thislife.

Leslie

I think the forum IS for all beliefs. But also, on this thread jmo is asking some specific questions she wants specific answers to... but support at all costs???

for all those seeking peace

{{{{{{{{{Rayna}}}}}}}}}}}} We are allowed to have our own beliefs. There's different threads for different beliefs. Maybe it's because most of the US population calls itself "Christian" is why Christian threads get more attention.