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  #26  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 02:56 PM
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Trippin2.0 Trippin2.0 is offline
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Why are you asking retarded questions is my question... Probably a resident flamer, but I'll bite, I'm bored anyhow.

"How can you love someone and force them blah blah blah..."

REALLY? pshhh

To you, monogamy is ********, unnatural.

Thats ok, to us it is natural and we don't force people into it...
Its a natural progression of a state of being.

If I found out my bf didn't want sexual exclusivity, he wouldn't be my bf anymore. Simple.

To make light of your previous example:

Jake: "Babe I'm going over to Sally's to hump her brains out, have dinner ready"

Sarah: "If you have sex with Sally I'm outta here Jake I mean it dammit!"

What are we 10 y.o? How did that convo even start??? Was Jake bragging about Sally's boobs saying how he can't resist?

No, no, no, in reality, between intelligent rational adults, it goes something more like this...

We meet, we get to know eachother, we connect, we fall inlove.

Somewhere along the line we learn about eachother's values, principles and expectations.

If we disagree on a fundamental topic, we find a compromise, if there's no compromise, and the relationship cannot continue healthily and happily because of said fundamental topic, aptly called a deal-breaker, we split up.

So now let me ask a retarded question.

How can a polygamist force a monogamist into an open relationship and claim to love them?

"I'm going to screw everything that walks and you'll just be fine with it if you love me!"

Again, the 10 y.o version I copied from your Joe and whats her face example...

Not realistic at all when I do it hey? Unless of course you hang out with a bunch of emotionally retarded people, in which case, I digress

And the question just doesn't make sense, as HB pointed out, there's no force in a loving relationship, people should be pairing up with like-minded people.
If they don't, they were either unfortunately mislead like my dear friend Lynn, or its their own damn fault for not knowing the person they're getting involved with, or choosing to be with the person despite such huge differences.

NB. The Ultimatum (i.e what you call "force")

If someone says, "cheat and I'll leave", its an ultimatum, not force.

They are stating their boundary and how they will react upon this boundary being crossed.

You choose to act, knowing the consequence.
If you cheat, the person leaves, bcoz they said they would.

If you don't and you aren't the monogamous type, you sentence yourself to a whole lot of misery.

Either way, when you get an ultimatum like this a CHOICE is presented before you, not force. You feeling forced is your own damn problem.

There's simply no force, unless they handcuffed you and kept you prisoner until you finally escaped.
Thanks for this!
UnderTheRose

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  #27  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 03:07 PM
lynn P.'s Avatar
lynn P. lynn P. is offline
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Originally Posted by High Treason View Post
Yes, I do agree with this. I've said it before in this thread and I think it's worth repeating that I am in favor of people making their own choices and not trying to convince anyone that their choice of monogamy is wrong or that they should make different choices. I just want to understand why people want monogamy. I understand that many people want a monogamous partner, and it makes sense that those people find a partner who is monogamous. I just want to know why people want that.

I mean, I'm attracted to women with dark hair. However, if I found an awesome woman who was blond, it wouldn't be a deal breaker. I'm not attracted to religious people, but if I found an otherwise awesome person who was religious, I would deal with it.

I guess what I don't understand is the deal breaker aspect of sexual exclusivity. To many monogamists, if they were to find someone who was perfect in every way except that they wanted to have sex with other people, they'd call the whole thing off over that one thing, and they'd do it without a second thought. It seems to me (often when reading posts on this forum) that there are two things that are 100% deal breakers in many people's minds: being abusive and having sex with another person. The first one makes perfect sense. The second one doesn't.
Its seems we agree on several points and I'm not judging your preference. I would only be against cheating if the partner expected exclusivity. I tried to tell you why I expect monogamy but you didn't acknowledge it. It would turn me off to know he's doing the wild thing with someone else. I would also be concerned with STD's. For many it hurts when there's cheating, assuming there's a promise of exclusivity. As I said before....it requires a shift in thinking, where they fore go any jealousy or possessive thinking.

Hopefully you'll pick women where it won't be a deal breaker. Its a preference and a belief system. I respect yours and neither do well together. I wouldn't want to force any man into monogamy and I don't want to be forced into an open one. It all comes down to expectations and respecting the others beliefs.......whether they can live harmoniously .
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  #28  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 03:10 PM
High Treason High Treason is offline
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Originally Posted by hankster View Post
I conclude you're lying and I don't think you're fine with it, because this scenario has your partner informing you of her whereabouts, ostensibly "in case she runs into any problems" but it feels to me like you need to retain control of her actions by at least knowing about them. Safety is just an excuse. I wouldn't care for having to report my every move to you like this. You're all talk and I am getting no action!!
Ok... then by all means don't tell me. I don't mind that much, I guess. I just think if you're a woman hooking up with some random guy, it might be nice if someone knew where you were. That's all.

Actually your response is somewhat interesting because it's a perfect example of how people take what they believe, assume everyone else believes the same way, and then interpret everything anyone else says as evidence that they do believe the same, throwing out the parts that don't fit as "just an excuse" or some other such thing.

Last edited by High Treason; Jul 29, 2013 at 03:33 PM.
  #29  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 04:39 PM
High Treason High Treason is offline
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Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
Why are you asking retarded questions is my question... Probably a resident flamer,
In order to answer your question, you have to give more information as to why you think my question is "retarded." Also, I have never been anything but open and honest on these forums, and I can see no reason for you to believe that I am a "resident flamer." I flamer is a person who says things they do not believe simply to get a reaction out of people (usually a negative one.) When have I ever done that? I think if you read my post and my responses, you would find that I do actually believe what I am saying because I present reasoned arguments in favor of my position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
If I found out my bf didn't want sexual exclusivity, he wouldn't be my bf anymore. Simple.
I realize this is a common position to take. I'm just trying to discover the rationale behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
To make light of your previous example:

Jake: "Babe I'm going over to Sally's to hump her brains out, have dinner ready"

Sarah: "If you have sex with Sally I'm outta here Jake I mean it dammit!"
I'm sorry, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make with your example conversation. My example conversation was purposely absurd in order to demonstrate the absurdity of a particular position; namely the position that monogamists are monogamous out of a concern for sexual health.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
Somewhere along the line we learn about eachother's values, principles and expectations.
...
people should be pairing up with like-minded people. If they don't, they were either unfortunately mislead like my dear friend Lynn, or its their own damn fault for not knowing the person they're getting involved with, or choosing to be with the person despite such huge differences.
The problem here is that people's values, principles and expectations change over the course of one's life. It's pretty silly to expect someone to have the same beliefs a decade from now as they have right now. Much more so 30, 40, 50 years down the line. What if you get into a relationship and even marry someone who thinks they are a monogamist (like I did before) and then they realize later that monogamy is not how they want to live out the rest of their life. You still love each other, are still committed to each other, but your partner wants to have sex with other people. You've made it pretty clear that you would end the relationship. You would end an otherwise awesome and fulfilling relationship over something as ultimately unimportant as whether your partner has sex with other people sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
How can a polygamist force a monogamist into an open relationship and claim to love them?
A person in a relationship with me would be free to have sex with other people or not have sex with other people. They have the freedom to choose what they want. I certainly would not attempt to persuade them against their will to have sex with other people if they don't want to.

As long as we are writing short dialogues, how about this one:

Larry: I should have the freedom to be openly homosexual
Jim: Well I should have the freedom to not be around open homosexuality!

Jim has simply used the word freedom incorrectly here. In fact, Jim is attempting to exert force on Larry not to be openly homosexual. He wants Larry to change his behavior, to do or not do something. That is force and a restriction of Larry's freedom. Larry is not attempting to exert any force on Jim. Jim is free to continue to not be openly homosexual (or homosexual at all).

"Forcing" someone to not have the power to force me to do things is not actually forcing someone to do anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
Either way, when you get an ultimatum like this a CHOICE is presented before you, not force. You feeling forced is your own damn problem.

There's simply no force, unless they handcuffed you and kept you prisoner until you finally escaped.
Ultimatums are force. It's not physical force but it is a type of force. It is using a position of power to change someone else's behavior. This is not always bad. If I'm in relationship with someone who likes to stab people, I would certainly set an ultimatum that if she stabs me, I will leave her. Is that force? Sure it is. I am forcing her not to stab me or else suffer the consequences (the ending of the relationship). I think that force is justified because being stabbed would hurt me and possibly seriously injure me.

Having sex with someone else does not hurt me. In fact your partner having sex with someone else doesn't hurt you either. What actually (emotionally) hurts you is knowing that he had sex with someone else. Your bf could have sex with a hundred other people and as long you never find out, no harm ever comes to you (assuming he is engaging in safe sex). That should be kind of a red flag that there is a disconnect somewhere in your belief system when knowing about something is hurtful to you but that thing happening without your knowledge is not harmful to you at all.
  #30  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 07:22 PM
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lynn P. lynn P. is offline
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Having sex with someone else does not hurt me. In fact your partner having sex with someone else doesn't hurt you either. What actually (emotionally) hurts you is knowing that he had sex with someone else. Your bf could have sex with a hundred other people and as long you never find out, no harm ever comes to you (assuming he is engaging in safe sex). That should be kind of a red flag that there is a disconnect somewhere in your belief system when knowing about something is hurtful to you but that thing happening without your knowledge is not harmful to you at all.
If a persons in an open relationship, naturally it doesn't hurt to find out the other is having sex. It does hurt if one of the monogamous partners has sex....because there's deceit going on. All it takes is for one condom to break, where they might have to deal with pregnancies or STD's. Wonder if people know there's an antibiotic resistant gonorrhea. Another mouth to feed or a threatening STD does end up taking away from the partnership one thought they had. Naturally if we don't know something we're oblivious to the reality, which again is a deceit factor. If one assumes the other is exclusive, that persons not living in reality. Just because one is lying and the other doesn't know....doesn't mean we're disconnected in our beliefs..

The majority of the population believes in exclusivity. It can't be that hard to find women who are fine with multiple partners. If you don't want your belief criticized then why criticize ours. I don't believe forcing anyone into anything.
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  #31  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 09:01 PM
High Treason High Treason is offline
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Originally Posted by lynn P. View Post
If you don't want your belief criticized then why criticize ours.
I have never stated that I don't want my belief criticized. I welcome criticism on any of my beliefs if there are any criticisms to be brought. In fact, if you felt I held a belief wrongly and did not level criticism against it, I would consider it to be an insult. Withholding criticism is the way people treat children and idiots. To not criticize my beliefs if you thought they were wrong would be patronizing, condescending, and offensive to me.

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Originally Posted by lynn P. View Post
If a persons in an open relationship, naturally it doesn't hurt to find out the other is having sex. It does hurt if one of the monogamous partners has sex....because there's deceit going on.
This is an argument I hear often, but I don't buy it. I don't buy it because if your partner lied to you about something you didn't care about very much, you likely wouldn't be very upset by it. If you partner told you his great grandmother was named Gertrude but then you found out that his great grandmother was actually named Esther and he knew this all along but simply lied about her name, would you end the relationship over this? Would you be very upset about it at all. Maybe, maybe you might be slightly annoyed by the intentional deceit. I suspect that most people, however, just simply wouldn't care at all about this lie. The argument that it is wrong because it's deceit doesn't hold water. In order to be upset about the deceit, you have to care about the act in the first place. Then you can be upset about the deceit to hide the act on top of that. But you are not primarily upset about the deceit. You are primarily upset about the act.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn P. View Post
All it takes is for one condom to break... a bunch of stuff about sexual health and risk...
This is an after-the-fact reason to rationalize sexual exclusivity. If you can honestly tell me that you wouldn't mind having an open relationship if all STD's were cured and your partner was sterile, then we can talk about this, but it's a pointless conversation unless you can do that because it's not the real reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn P. View Post
Naturally if we don't know something we're oblivious to the reality, which again is a deceit factor. If one assumes the other is exclusive, that persons not living in reality. Just because one is lying and the other doesn't know....doesn't mean we're disconnected in our beliefs..
The only reason I can think of that something would be bad or wrong is if it hurts someone else. things that actually hurt you do so regardless of whether or not you know they are happening. If your partner poisons your food a little each day, but you don't suspect it, then you are still being harmed regardless of your knowledge or lack of knowledge. If your partner steals money from you but you never find out, you were still harmed regardless of the fact that you never find out. These things are actually harmful. It has nothing to do with "living in reality" or not. Things that are actually harmful to you are things that you need to find out about in order to stop being harmed. "Cheating" however is something that doesn't harm you at all unless you find out about it. Indeed the most wrong thing the cheater could do is tell you about the cheating because that actually harms you. you don't see anything fishy about a belief that something is wrong when it doesn't actually harm you unless you know about it?
  #32  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 09:22 PM
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lynn P. lynn P. is offline
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Originally Posted by High Treason View Post
I have never stated that I don't want my belief criticized. I welcome criticism on any of my beliefs if there are any criticisms to be brought. In fact, if you felt I held a belief wrongly and did not level criticism against it, I would consider it to be an insult. Withholding criticism is the way people treat children and idiots. To not criticize my beliefs if you thought they were wrong would be patronizing, condescending, and offensive to me.

I already stated I don't judge poly-amorous, polygamy or open relationships as long as all are consenting and aware. Its not for me though. I have no idea why you're defending your belief when I've been the most reasonable person on this thread. At this point I feel you're nit-picking. I don't think I should have to defend my own beliefs.

This is an argument I hear often, but I don't buy it. I don't buy it because if your partner lied to you about something you didn't care about very much, you likely wouldn't be very upset by it. If you partner told you his great grandmother was named Gertrude but then you found out that his great grandmother was actually named Esther and he knew this all along but simply lied about her name, would you end the relationship over this? Would you be very upset about it at all. Maybe, maybe you might be slightly annoyed by the intentional deceit. I suspect that most people, however, just simply wouldn't care at all about this lie. The argument that it is wrong because it's deceit doesn't hold water. In order to be upset about the deceit, you have to care about the act in the first place. Then you can be upset about the deceit to hide the act on top of that. But you are not primarily upset about the deceit. You are primarily upset about the act.

Telling white lies is nothing compared to sleeping with another person. Women especially connect emotionally with sex. If I assume my partners faithful and he's not - that's a big deceit. I'd be upset about the deceit and the act.

This is an after-the-fact reason to rationalize sexual exclusivity. If you can honestly tell me that you wouldn't mind having an open relationship if all STD's were cured and your partner was sterile, then we can talk about this, but it's a pointless conversation unless you can do that because it's not the real reason.

Well that's my opinion.

The only reason I can think of that something would be bad or wrong is if it hurts someone else. things that actually hurt you do so regardless of whether or not you know they are happening. If your partner poisons your food a little each day, but you don't suspect it, then you are still being harmed regardless of your knowledge or lack of knowledge. If your partner steals money from you but you never find out, you were still harmed regardless of the fact that you never find out. These things are actually harmful. It has nothing to do with "living in reality" or not. Things that are actually harmful to you are things that you need to find out about in order to stop being harmed. "Cheating" however is something that doesn't harm you at all unless you find out about it. Indeed the most wrong thing the cheater could do is tell you about the cheating because that actually harms you. you don't see anything fishy about a belief that something is wrong when it doesn't actually harm you unless you know about it?
There are some men who are fine with being exclusive. If 2 people have a deal to be exclusive, then it breaks the agreement. Most people can't take the ego and emotions out of intimacy, unless a persons seeing a prostitute. You're basically trying to convince us that your way is best and ours is wrong. You're also invalidating those of us who've been hurt, by a partner who promised to be exclusive. I've spent enough energy and don't want to repeat / nitpick anymore. When you're too old to have sex, which one of your partners will be there to keep you company? Do you form deep emotional connections with the women in your life? You must be one looker to have a variety of women on hand.
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Last edited by lynn P.; Jul 29, 2013 at 09:44 PM.
  #33  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 09:45 PM
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unaluna unaluna is online now
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Originally Posted by High Treason View Post
Ok... then by all means don't tell me. I don't mind that much, I guess. I just think if you're a woman hooking up with some random guy, it might be nice if someone knew where you were. That's all.

Actually your response is somewhat interesting because it's a perfect example of how people take what they believe, assume everyone else believes the same way, and then interpret everything anyone else says as evidence that they do believe the same, throwing out the parts that don't fit as "just an excuse" or some other such thing.
No, I think that's what you're doing. I am good at monogamy, but my preference is probably non-monogamy. All of a sudden you're assuming I'm having random sex with some skeevy random guy that wants to hurt me. Whereas I'm probably just doing someone really cute with ties to the community, as they say on Law and Order. Does it still feel good to you? That's what the problem is. What if the other person finds someone "better" than you and then wants to be with them exclusively? Then you feel like an idiot for settling for less - ugh, this sounds like what im dealing with in therapy.

I haven't caught up yet, sorry if I'm repeating.
  #34  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 09:59 PM
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unaluna unaluna is online now
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Oh I like the argument about, what you dont know cant hurt you. I'm not sure I agree with it though. I grew up being lied to, and I didnt like it. Humans "work" better ie can be happier? if they can trust someone.

Just for the sake of argument, my first marriage was monogamous, the 2nd was not, and the 2nd was to some degree better than the first, but ultimately both sucked. The deciding factor was not faithfulness at all.
  #35  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 10:13 PM
High Treason High Treason is offline
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Originally Posted by lynn P. View Post
I already stated I don't judge poly-amorous, polygamy or open relationships as long as all are consenting and aware. Its not for me though. I have no idea why you're defending your belief when I've been the most reasonable person on this thread. At this point I feel you're nit-picking.
I'm not sure how what I wrote got so severely misunderstood. You implied that I would not like my beliefs criticized. I was simply pointing out that quite the opposite is true. If anyone has any criticisms, they should bring them forth. I also agree with you that you have been reasonable in this thread. I don't know why you felt like I thought you had leveled a criticism against my belief and that I had to defend it (as you mentioned, you leveled no such criticism) or that I am nit-picking, nit-picking what I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn P. View Post
I don't think I should have to defend my own beliefs.
If you do not defend your beliefs, by what means do you ensure that your beliefs are reasonable to hold? Don't you feel that a belief should be subjected to scrutiny to determine whether it holds up? Surely you don't just hold any belief you feel like without any good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn P. View Post
Telling white lies is nothing compared to sleeping with another person. Women especially connect emotionally with sex. If I assume my partners faithful and he's not - that's a big deceit. I'd be upset about the deceit and the act.
So you agree with me that it is not the deceit but primarily the act. You would be upset about the act and also the deceit to hide the act if you found out about it. Therefore it seems to me the most reasonable solution for someone who is in a long term relationship with you would be to have discreet sex with other people that is well planned such that you never find out. That would ensure both partners' long term happiness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn P. View Post
You're basically trying to convince us that your way is best and ours is wrong.
I think this is a mis-characterization of the argument. I do indeed believe that most people who are monogamous do not have good reasons for their beliefs. It is also not true (as is often said) that people are entitled to their beliefs. A belief does not carry with it any sort of entitlement. A belief is a good one only if it is able to be supported by evidence and arguments. I do think that the great majority of people in favor of sexual exclusivity cannot rationally support their beliefs. Therefore, I suppose it could be said that I believe these people are "wrong" but I think it more accurate to say that I believe they hold untenable beliefs. However, I could be wrong about this as I could in any of my beliefs. Therefore I started this thread to hear what support sexually exclusive people have for holding the beliefs they hold. Some people have presented some reasons. I have responded why I don't think those reasons sufficient.

To be clear, here are the reasons I have gotten so far:

1. Sexual Health issues. People are exclusive sexually because they are afraid of STDs or unwanted pregnancy. This is clearly not true because when presented with a scenario in which these things would not be a concern, people still cling just as strongly to their belief in sexual exclusivity

2. It's the deceit. This is really just an argument for why cheating is wrong. However, it's still clearly not true because when presented with other instances of deceit, people are not nearly as upset by it if they are at all.

These are the only two reasons I have gotten from anyone so far. I am still waiting for anyone to provide any rational basis for sexual exclusivity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn P. View Post
When you're too old to have sex, which one of your partners will be there to keep you company? Do you form deep emotional connections with the women in your life? You must be one looker to have a variety of women on hand.
This seems rather more like an ad hominem attack than anything but I'll briefly respond. I have never said that I do not want to be in a committed relationship. In fact, for me personally, I have little intention to seek sex outside of that relationship. When in a relationship, I tend to be sexually exclusive as long as sex continues to happen in the relationship. However, sometimes it happens I am at a party or whatnot and a sudden opportunity for sex presents itself. I don't see any reason to turn it down.
  #36  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 10:28 PM
High Treason High Treason is offline
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Originally Posted by hankster View Post
No, I think that's what you're doing.
Then you would be wrong.

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Originally Posted by hankster View Post
I'm probably just doing someone really cute with ties to the community, as they say on Law and Order. Does it still feel good to you?
I'm not actually sure what you mean. Maybe because I have never seen Law and Order? Do you mean would I mind if my partner is having sex with someone she is attracted to and is a decent person? Of course not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hankster View Post
What if the other person finds someone "better" than you and then wants to be with them exclusively?
This is always a possibility in any relationship regardless of whether or not it's sexually exclusive. Assuming you are in the relationship for reasons other than sex, not being sexually exclusive doesn't significantly increase this possibility.
  #37  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 11:20 PM
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Trippin2.0 Trippin2.0 is offline
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See why I call your question retarded and why lynn left?

Because you're purposefully dismissing everything we say and pretending you want a mitigating answer...

NOBODY needs to jusify any damn thing to you. A belief does NOT have to be approved by you, who died and made you king?

READ MY POST: It clearly states
MONOGAMY IS A NATURAL PROGRESSION.
and when someone decides to say fk that, I'm screwing around now, it does hurt. It hurts our feelings and you KNOW this, you just want someone to explain it to you becoz you're either a robot or flamer. HTF do you expect people to explain the origin of feelings anyway.

And after your comparison between lying over grandmas name and cheating? I'm going with flamer.

People who change their minds about their principles years into a relationship (like you) must deal with their own stupid aftermath.

When choosing a life partner, its best not do so whilst weakminded, not knowing who you are in the first place and following others beliefs like sheeple. (like you)

This kind of decision should be made by MATURE adults, like I pointed out too. (not like you)

Now I will bow out of this thread because 1, I dislike flamers and trolls, 2 You clearly don't want the info put before you, so this thread is a waste of time.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt tho, silly me
  #38  
Old Jul 29, 2013, 11:56 PM
High Treason High Treason is offline
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Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
See why I call your question retarded and why lynn left?

Because you're purposefully dismissing everything we say and pretending you want a mitigating answer...
If you believe I have dismissed anything, please let me know what and I shall address it. I have attempted to address all the important point people have brought up but admittedly may have missed something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
NOBODY needs to jusify any damn thing to you. A belief does NOT have to be approved by you, who died and made you king?
I have not claimed to be a "king" or any other sort of authority. That's the great thing about rational discourse. No one can claim authority because all you need do if you disagree with me is provide a rational basis for your beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
READ MY POST: It clearly states
MONOGAMY IS A NATURAL PROGRESSION.
I disagree with this to a certain extent. Please feel free to provide arguments or evidence for this contention and we can have a discussion about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
you're either a robot or flamer...

...flamer...

...stupid...

...weakminded...

..[im]MATURE...

...Now I will bow out of this thread...

...flamers and trolls...
Hmm, you seem to be upset about something, but I can't imagine what. I have done nothing throughout this thread but provide arguments for my position which is that monogamy is an untenable belief system and leads to the use of unnecessary coercive force against one's romantic partners.

Calling me names doesn't really do anything to further the discussion. However, if you would like to discuss the issue at hand in a rational manner free of ad hominem attacks, I will be happy to do so.
  #39  
Old Jul 30, 2013, 12:02 AM
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anneo59 anneo59 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Treason View Post
I've been thinking about this a lot, so I thought I'd ask. There is (and has for a long time been) an expectation among most people that you find the one person you love and then never ever ever have sex with anyone else ever again. This notion seems completely absurd to me. I just can't understand how you can claim to love someone and limit their options for happiness at the same time.

I used to be a believer in monogamy in my younger days, so I'll share a little bit of my personal journey to where my beliefs currently are. You grow up kind of just being taught by media, movies, TV, parents, and whatnot that monogamy is just the way things work. Therefore, I believed that, too. Committed relationships without the sexual exclusivity clause didn't cross my mind for a very long time. I got into a pretty serious relationship when I was around 20 years old. She was a lot older than me and had many sexual experiences under her belt. She was my first. As things got serious, it caused a lot of anxiety for me. At the time, being young and not very self aware, I thought I was upset with her for having been so sexually promiscuous. Now I realize that quite the opposite was the case. I was upset that if I stayed with her and got married and the things I felt one did when they loved someone that I would never get to have those sorts of sexual experiences myself. I felt trapped by the prospect of the relationship actually going well and leaving me only allowed to have sex with her forever. As it turns out the relationship did not last forever (it lasted about 2 years) but what if it had? What if it had turned out that we were actually perfect for each other and should be together forever? Then I would not have been allowed to ever have sex with anyone else for the whole rest of my life? What a terrible outcome of a situation that should be happy, finding a person you want to spend your life with!

Later in college, I became good friends with a woman who was very non-monogamous. That was really my first realization that such a life is possible. She is bi-sexual and had sex equally with men and women. When she got married, it was not a sexually monogamous marriage and both of them were allowed to have sex outside the marriage. I thought that was pretty cool. However, as far as my plans for my life were concerned, my brain was still stuck in the sexual monogamy rut. I got married and stayed married for six years without cheating very much. There was this one time during the marriage where another woman and I performed oral sex on each other... and I did have sex with another woman while geographically separated from my wife for a few months. Even on these two occasions, however, I felt that it was something I shouldn't be doing. That it was something that was bad and that I should be sexually monogamous but that there was just something wrong with me.

After my divorce, however, I felt like my eyes started to open. I stopped being able to come up with reasons why sexual monogamy should be expected or is even desirable. Nowadays, it seems to me that expecting sexual monogamy in a relationship is completely selfish and silly. While I used to think that having a woman "cheat" on me would be like the worst thing to happen ever, I now can't imagine demanding that a woman I am involved with restrict her sexual activity only to me, and I wouldn't want to be with anyone who would try to do that to me either. I do want to end up in a committed relationship with one woman, and I do want a sexual relationship with that woman. In fact, that's a pretty big requirement for me. However, I don't see why we shouldn't be permitted to have sex with other people sometimes, too.

Sexual monogamy no longer makes any sense to me. I see now, looking back, that my belief in sexual monogamy for so many years was a major source of stress in my life. Now that I recognize the absurdity of that world view, I'm much more at ease with sexuality and much more mature in my thoughts about relationships.

Sexual monogamy is not a natural state for humans. Just look at the statistics for how often "cheating" happens in relationships. Now realize that those statistics are even lower than reality because they only include people who admit to it or got caught. There's lots of extra-marital sex out there that never comes to light because people are smart enough not to get caught. Also, while it was previously believed that men were the primary culprits, recent studies have indicated that women have extra-marital sex a lot more than was once believed. Women just tend to be much better at planning it and hiding it, therefore not getting caught as often. It has been estimated that as many as 5% of fathers in the US are not actually the biological father of at least one of their children, unbeknownst to them.

"Cheating" happens not because someone in the relationship is a bad person. It happens because monogamy is not natural. It doesn't make sense. Wouldn't it be better if we all just accepted this and did away with unnecessary stress in our lives?

I know a lot of people on this forum are firm believers in monogamy, so I thought I would present the topic to get your thoughts.
Prob can't shed too much light here, sorry, but wish best. Been through loving non-monogamous partner several times and not for me. Interestly enuff, when I was younger and single, sure I had much more varied sex life than either one! I still believe tho, that monogamy is a worthy goal! Or whatever a couple, both of them, is comfortable with. I think that it's so wonderful to see older couples still in love. And as one who is fast approaching that stage, with a little bit younger hubby, we both do see this. But it's work like anything else. PC has a good article this week, sorry can't supply the link, something bout seven habits in marriage. Like meeting and greeting affectionately. Looking into someone's eyes, breathing together, etc. Good stuff. anyway, I sincerely wish you all the very best!
  #40  
Old Jul 30, 2013, 02:32 AM
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Trippin2.0 Trippin2.0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Treason View Post
If you believe I have dismissed anything, please let me know what and I shall address it. I have attempted to address all the important point people have brought up but admittedly may have missed something.

No you haven't. Simple, read your own thread and its clear. You only address the things you have an argument for. The rest you dismiss. Example: People have feelings, deep seated feelings are involved when people cheat, unlike lying about grandma's name...

I have not claimed to be a "king" or any other sort of authority. That's the great thing about rational discourse. No one can claim authority because all you need do if you disagree with me is provide a rational basis for your beliefs.

You clearly stated that our choices or beliefs need to be justified, to whom, you?
So yeah you implied you "are king" because we don't make sense to you, and still even now, you are demanding that we do.
^^^^Again, right there, you say I must provide you with a rational basis for MY beliefs...
WHY? Who are are you and why do I need to rationalize anything to YOU?

Why is it so hard to accept that people are individuals, with individual principles, belief systems and preferences?

We did that for you... Nobody slammed you for not being monogamous, nobody even asked you to justify it. We just accepted your choice as an individual. You are the only one seeking arguments and validation for OTHER people's choices.


I disagree with this to a certain extent. Please feel free to provide arguments or evidence for this contention and we can have a discussion about it.

NO.NO.NO.
Go do a bloody study or have a mock court case.
Nobody owes you a damn thing, again, my reference to who died and made you king?
If you still don't see why I use that phrase, then there's nothing I can do about that.


Hmm, you seem to be upset about something, but I can't imagine what. I have done nothing throughout this thread but provide arguments for my position which is that monogamy is an untenable belief system and leads to the use of unnecessary coercive force against one's romantic partners.

Yes, I'm upset that you purposely get people's back up against the wall and feign ignorance and trying to understand...

Why were you not just honest from the beginning of this thread? Why ask a retarded question claiming you are trying to understand. You could have stated that you are looking for a debate instead of understanding. That way you would have gotten the responses you wanted instead and we wouldn't have wasted time trying to help you understand.

The thread question was answered, many many posts ago. Another thing you promptly dismissed.

Yes, you argue argue argue argue, like there is a point in there somewhere. Nobody asked you to argue, you're just looking for an argument. Instead of graciously accepting the information put before you, that it is NOT unnatural for everyone.

See, you said again that monogamy leads to coercive force, instead of acknowledging that it doesn't have to. Like I pointed out more than once, re: mature adults, like minded people, blah blah. Another point you chose to dismiss more than once.

Soooo, YTF must I repeat myself? For your entertainment? I'm not a member of your personal circus.

Clearly you can read, you just choose not to, so you are not in fact retarded, I digress. You just feel like starting fires.


Calling me names doesn't really do anything to further the discussion. However, if you would like to discuss the issue at hand in a rational manner free of ad hominem attacks, I will be happy to do so.
Not my fault if you act like the things I call you, there is no furthering this "discussion" anyway because you refuse to take your head out your a.s.s because arguing is much more fun.

If you really were looking for a discussion on this topic, as opposed to whatever the hell it is you're doing now...

You would have responded to one of us by now with;

"I see now that people are individual, and that there are people for whom monogamy does come naturally to, I also see now that some people are emotionally invested in their relationships, so that is why cheating would hurt their feelings" or something like that.

But no, all you've done is reiterate that to you we don't make sense, and we must defend our beliefs to YOU, like you are a deciding factor in the choices WE make.

MY LAST ATTEMPT AT EDUCATING YOU (because I'm actually nice like that)
People are not just objects created for someone else's pleasure, a blow up doll would be more suited for you if you believe otherwise.

To many people, sex is not just sex, it's not just a logical mechanical act.
Emotions,intimacy, bonding and trust is built within these relationships, they are invested in your partner, if it was something that you can forge between numerous people equally, then there's nothing special or intimate about it.

I could never personally have a sexual relationship without those things. So yes, if he were to cheat, it would hurt like hell. Which might I point out, I mentioned before, but you dismissed the fact that I said people have feelings.

So, now I will be bowing out of this rouse of a discussion for real, as I've said all I can to someone who is narrow-minded, and refuse to be part of your cyber circus
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  #41  
Old Jul 30, 2013, 01:06 PM
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UnderTheRose UnderTheRose is offline
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as stated above by Trippin 2.0
" if it was something that you can forge between numerous people equally, then there's nothing special or intimate about it."....
yep. And i would add to that, why bother being in a relationship then? why have a Marriage or a Girlfriend? Why not just have a random assortment of bodies to entwine with?
Is it because ultimately one still wants to feel as though there is ONE special person for them?
Where does the line get drawn? So your wife finds a handsome young man that she starts bumping uglies with, and through that intimate physical act, she learns to care for him and he for her, and perhaps when you would like her home making dinner, she is at his house, in his bed, discussing his day with him, offering him emotional support while you sit at home in an empty house.... Then what? Do you make a call and go to a girl who takes on the role as 'satisfier'? And then wife comes home one day and you are not there for her... so she looks elsewhere... Like, what's the point?
If there is no emotional investment in sex, if there is no intimacy, and its just mechanical action, then who cares if you have the same person daily, or a blow up doll.
If it's because you like variety, then why bother having a Wife or Girlfriend?
I mean, i understand the desire to be with other people, but there are a variety of ramifications and i think that the opinions of others, as to why they are monogamous have been swept to the side by you as being absurd or wrong. Not cool.
Thanks for this!
lynn P., Trippin2.0
  #42  
Old Jul 31, 2013, 03:38 AM
High Treason High Treason is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
People have feelings, deep seated feelings are involved when people cheat, unlike lying about grandma's name...
There is a time and a place for feelings. I'm not immune to feelings, but you can't just let your feelings control you. A relationship with someone (especially one that is intended to last forever like marriage) is a serious decision. Why on Earth would you let your feelings enter into that decision? The only smart way to make decisions is using reason, not emotion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
You clearly stated that our choices or beliefs need to be justified, to whom, you?
So yeah you implied you "are king" because we don't make sense to you, and still even now, you are demanding that we do.
^^^^Again, right there, you say I must provide you with a rational basis for MY beliefs...
WHY? Who are are you and why do I need to rationalize anything to YOU?
Are you actually trying to say you think people should just have any old beliefs without any justification for those beliefs? You just randomly choose what to believe with no reason? I sure hope you don't vote!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
Nobody slammed you for not being monogamous, nobody even asked you to justify it. We just accepted your choice as an individual. You are the only one seeking arguments and validation for OTHER people's choices.
You've clearly not understood anything I've said in this thread. I have not "slammed" anybody for anything. I absolutely respect other people's right to make choices, even choices I disagree with. I am the biggest advocate of freedom and human rights that you will ever come in contact with. I would just like to know why people make a certain choice because I honestly don't understand it. I have never once implied that I don't think people should be allowed to make the choice or "slammed" anyone for making the choice. You might want to re-read what I have actually written with a more objective eye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
you purposely get people's back up against the wall
That feeling of being backed up against the wall is common when faced with the fact that one's beliefs may not be tenable. I realize that it's an uncomfortable feeling. It is often even for me after years and years of training and experience in rational discussion. However, the appropriate thing to do in that situation is to re-examine your beliefs and be prepared to admit that you might be wrong. What too many people often do instead is take offense or even become violent on occasion. That's just not very productive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
Why were you not just honest from the beginning of this thread? You could have stated that you are looking for a debate instead of understanding.
I was completely honest from the very beginning of this thread. I did and still do seek to understand why people would make the choice to require sexual exclusivity from their partner. It doesn't make much sense when you say that I was looking for a debate "instead of understanding." What do you think the point of a debate is? A debate is an attempt to find understanding. In fact, a debate is pretty much the only reasonable way to seek understanding. If I were not to debate the answers given, then I could certainly not claim to truly be seeking understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
graciously accepting the information put before you
Surely you don't just believe everything you are told, right? When faced with potential "information," you should always question it to see if it is justified. If you don't you will end up believing a lot of strange and very untrue things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trippin2.0 View Post
To many people, sex is not just sex, it's not just a logical mechanical act.
Emotions,intimacy, bonding and trust is built within these relationships, they are invested in your partner, if it was something that you can forge between numerous people equally, then there's nothing special or intimate about it.

I could never personally have a sexual relationship without those things. So yes, if he were to cheat, it would hurt like hell. Which might I point out, I mentioned before, but you dismissed the fact that I said people have feelings.
You seem to actually have the beginnings of an argument here. I will attempt to put it into a more structured form with numbered premises to try to understand it better.

To make the sentences shorter and therefore simpler to understand, I will use the following variables:

X: a person
Y: X's partner in a relationship
Z: emotions, intimacy, bonding, trust, and being invested in one's partner

Here is what I think you are saying:
1. X requires relationships in which both X and Y have Z.
2. X requires relationships that are special for both X and Y. (implicit premise)
3. If Z exists in more than one of a person's relationships, there would be nothing special about any of that person's relationships.
4. X has no desire to have sex with someone without Z
5. X will be hurt if X's relationship does not meet X's requirements (implicit premise)
Therefore, if Y had sex with someone besides X, X would be hurt.

OK, let me study this for a second.

We can conclude from 1, 2, and 3 that X wants a single relationship and from the addition of 4 that X's partner in the relationship would be the only person X wants to have sex with.

This proves quite well that X would be sexually exclusive within the relationship. However, that's not the stated conclusion. The stated conclusion is that Y not being sexually exclusive would hurt X.

When we consider premise 5, we can come up with the following:
We can conclude that if X or Y did not have Z that X would be hurt.
We can also conclude that if X or Y had Z in multiple relationships, it would hurt X.
This argument does support its stated conclusion, however, because the only thing we know about anyone's preferences regarding sex is about X. We know nothing about Y in that regard, so the conclusion doesn't hold water.

Now, to be fair, we could easily fix this argument by simply adding another premise that states "Y has no desire to have sex with someone without Z." However, I can't think of any good reason to add that premise. Why must that be true of Y? It sounds to me as though X is simply transferring her own feelings onto Y and feeling hurt unnecessarily.

By the way, I also think the truth of premise 3 is pretty questionable.
  #43  
Old Jul 31, 2013, 03:57 AM
High Treason High Treason is offline
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unless you think that a relationship is only sex or that sex implies a relationship, nothing you have said here makes any sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTheRose View Post
why bother being in a relationship then? why have a Marriage or a Girlfriend? Why not just have a random assortment of bodies to entwine with?
because relationships are not just sex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTheRose View Post
Is it because ultimately one still wants to feel as though there is ONE special person for them?
How is it not possible to feel that and still have sex with others unless a relationship is only sex?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTheRose View Post
Where does the line get drawn? So your wife finds a handsome young man that she starts bumping uglies with, and through that intimate physical act, she learns to care for him and he for her, and perhaps when you would like her home making dinner, she is at his house, in his bed, discussing his day with him, offering him emotional support while you sit at home in an empty house.... Then what?
Then I would end the relationship with her. The same basic rules apply. If she doesn't have time for me, I end the relationship. It has nothing to do with the sex in your scenario. It has to do with her clearly not taking my relationship with her seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTheRose View Post
If there is no emotional investment in sex, if there is no intimacy, and its just mechanical action, then who cares if you have the same person daily
and who cares if you don't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTheRose View Post
or a blow up doll.
clearly not even remotely in the same category as sex with a human being

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTheRose View Post
If it's because you like variety, then why bother having a Wife or Girlfriend?
Wives and girlfriends are only for sex? Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTheRose View Post
I mean, i understand the desire to be with other people, but there are a variety of ramifications and i think that the opinions of others, as to why they are monogamous have been swept to the side by you as being absurd or wrong.
I don't agree that I have swept anything to the side. I have made an honest effort to respond to everything raised in this thread. If I didn't respond to something it is because I either missed it or felt that I addressed it previously.
  #44  
Old Jul 31, 2013, 05:20 AM
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unaluna unaluna is online now
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There's an article in the nytimes.com about how monogamy may have evolved.
  #45  
Old Jul 31, 2013, 05:38 AM
High Treason High Treason is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankster View Post
There's an article in the nytimes.com about how monogamy may have evolved.
That would be interesting to read. Do you have a link?
  #46  
Old Jul 31, 2013, 12:38 PM
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Harley47 Harley47 is offline
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I haven't made my way though the entirety of the topic yet (I'm working on it), but there's something I wanted to contribute before offering anything about anything.

Treason, a debate over such a thing I think is a fine idea, but your assertion about opinions is absolutely incorrect. An opinion is typically held due to the values held by the person with the opinion. Looking at the base of the opinion, the value itself, it is impossible to empirically prove or disprove the value, or claim the supremacy of one over the other with a factual basis, as 1) such a thing can only be examined in relation to other values, which excludes in large part any tangible evidence (in this case, the only evidence that could be provided would be a comparison between testimonials from monogamous and couples like your propose, but that speaks more to an examination of monogamy than a value) and 2) the argument necessarily introduces bias from both sides in regard to each side's arguments. As such, one's view on the worth of monogamy being based on values, something which cannot be examined in a rational, scientific manner, leaves the matter of supporting an opinion such as this impossible to support, thus leaving the only validation the opinion has lying in the values of the individual, something which is impossible to empirically validate. Thus, I argue entitlement to one's opinion is a valid notion in this matter.

I would, perhaps, agree if the opinion was on something tangible, such as, say, whether product A or product B is better at doing job C, as that can be supported with evidence. Just a caveat.

My point in this matter is that if you're looking at the underlying reasons that prompt monogamy or not, you're looking for evidence that does not exist, that cannot exist. If you're looking purely at monogamy vs alternatives without any consideration as to why the belief is held (which would invalidate, according to your topic title, your point in bringing this up), then you'd be more reasonable in expecting evidence.

Now, I'll get back to reading the topic...saw the "opinions" line and had to weigh in.

Harley
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The world suffers alot. Not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people.- Napoleon Bonaparte
Thanks for this!
lynn P.
  #47  
Old Jul 31, 2013, 12:41 PM
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unaluna unaluna is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Treason View Post
That would be interesting to read. Do you have a link?
Dude it's a lot more clicks for me to link it than it is for you to google it. It was this week. I thought you'd be interested, that's all.
  #48  
Old Aug 01, 2013, 02:10 AM
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UnderTheRose UnderTheRose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Treason View Post

Then I would end the relationship with her. The same basic rules apply. If she doesn't have time for me, I end the relationship. It has nothing to do with the sex in your scenario. It has to do with her clearly not taking my relationship with her seriously.

Obv you don't get my points. Obv we aren't tuned in to the same channel and can't hear each other correctly, so not sure if i even want to bother but this one point at least i will respond to ----
My point is, both people out having sex with others is either
1) bound to lead to trouble because intimacy often naturally comes with sexual activity. That intimacy involves caring, concern etc. The guy makes your woman feel awesome and she ends up spending more time with him and this makes you dump her
or
2)there is no intimacy, it's only about sex so no worries about her developing feelings for this other guy, but then its sex without feeling and according to you, theres more to it than sex.

You argue for and against both. SAying, "no there's more to sex than just sex", yet at the same time, if feelings develop (often called a form of a relationship) then you would end it.

Comes down to WHAT are you wanting outside of the marriage/relationship? Why is one woman's body not enough for you (though i realize now that you are the guy who's g/f hasnt had sex with him in 15 months or longer) if its not just the BODY of another woman you want, then its the interaction too.. right? hanging out? spending time? sharing thoughts?

What is YOUR reason for wanting to be with women outside of the relationship you are in?
What is monogamy? and if monogamy is not for you, what is the word you use to describe the opposite? Polygamy?... and THATS not just about sex that is often about caring too.. and once again, caring leads to people spending time with that other person. You might not be #1 if youre busy out with someone else and she happens to also be with someone else. and to say that if she liked another guy and sometimes wasnt home when you wanted her there, that youu'd end it with her THATS about you wanting to be in control of her polygamous relations and THAT is not true polygamy.. its about You wanting to be with whoever you want, when you want it.
Wow man, you're just like.. really frustrating to deal with.
  #49  
Old Aug 01, 2013, 02:18 AM
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FooZe FooZe is offline
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This thread appears to have run its course. I am now going to close it.
Closed Thread
Views: 8557

attentionThis is an old thread. You probably should not post your reply to it, as the original poster is unlikely to see it.




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