Re: Avatars

((((((((((((( Tomi ))))))))))))

this was just an article that she wrote for a local newspaper and she had to keep it under so many words. It's in no way complete. I could add a bit to it, too, but I think it needs to be taken on face value at first. All it is, is "milk." The "meat" comes after you've internalized the "milk."

Sorry, but my opinion is there is no "just an article". It's irresponsible to publish "diet" psychology to the mass public.
My concern is that many do take it at face value. How many apporach it critically or swallow it whole because of the credentials attached to the name? It certainly sounds good on the surface, but that's what is dangerous about these type articles.

Forgive me, but I still feel that you need to focus on just you and the changes you want to make in yourself rather than worry about "society" and how you can impact it. It won't be a positive impact until you know better who you are and achieve some of those changes that you want to make.

Of course I forgive you, I just don't agree with you. My dragon is about society. How do you suppose I work on my dragon without including it? We all impact society in some way, wanting to or not. I'm choosing to make my role productive the best way I know how.

I don't have time for more reply than this.....


"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Disagree all you want. It's my firm belief that your dragon is about the child that suffered injustices from your step-mother. Why else would you react to what I disagree with you on and hear her yelling at you?

You still need to focus more on yourself first and then worry about society's ills. Aren't we on a "self-improvement" quest?? When did this thread become about fixing society?

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

well pffft I "tried" to sneak it to a new thread...ya'll are jsut to clever and didnt "fall" for it lol

Here's my 2 ...

I agree that it's important to have one's own boundaries in place, etc., so that, inter alia, one does not lose themselves to the point of self-destruction in pursuing their endeavors, (like I tend to do ), or perhaps, inadvertantly, curtail anothers' growth, but I believe, ultimately, it is what gives a person 'meaning' to his/her own life that is the most important thing in the quest to satisfy the needs of one's spirit, and, hopefully, the expression, (and, therefore, healing), of one's innermost being, (which would include the ultimate healing of one's damaged, inner child or dragon). I also believe that the ways to meaning can be DIFFERENT for each individual, and still be no less valid..

That 'meaning' can come from different sources for different people, but to believe that one is living a life with no meaning, (essentially in an existential vacuum), is the surest way to finding oneself with feelings of utter desolation and hopelessness.

The 2nd best book I ever read is 'Man's Search For Meaning' by Victor Frankl. He talks a lot about how there is meaning in the pursuit of rectifying social injustice, in raising a family, in contemplative pursuits/self-enlightenment, or in caring or being a moral/physical support for others, etc.. Likewise, there can also be found profound 'meaning,' (and dare I say 'elegance'), in the way in which one endures his or her own suffering.

Again, in a sense then, it can be said that each person may find his/her own 'way to healing' through finding their own 'way to meaning,' and there's nothing wrong with these 'ways' being different, (depending, for example, on each individual's own inherent nature or proclivities).

Viewed from this perspective, I don't see either of your views as being at odds with one another.

What thinkest thou (plural)?

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT</font color=blue>

One thing jumps out at me so far:

You are in charge of what you allow into your boundary. If something comes at you that you agree with or fits your experience of yourself, you can choose to allow it in and incorporate it into your "I" messages and self-talk. If, however, something is not a part of you or is not true for you, you can choose to leave it outside of your boundary.

I don't disagree that the power of choice is completely the property of he or she who possesses it, yet I'm considering that choice and correct choice are not synonymous. If I choose to put low grade fuel in my high grade car, I must be responsible for the outcome of clogged fuel lines and poor performance.

I don't see disagreement here, but just want to add that, along the line of choice, we hear much talk in our society about "free agency." It is a fallacy. Agency is never free. Yes, we can choose and that is our right, but all choices are bound to their consequences. Some choices are good, and some are bad. Some consequences are good and some are bad. Some choices matter more than others. I can choose to eat a banana or eat an apple. I can choose to accept what someone says about me or to get mad about it. I can choose to wallow in my depression or to try to overcome it. Agency is not free - its price is always paid.

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

I really like that a lot, (((((Wendy))))) = "Agency is never free." I so couldn't agree more! XOXO!

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT</font color=blue>

Wendy, I'm not up on all the latest terms like you are. Would you please explain "Free Agency" a bit more?

Thanks!

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

People say all the time things like, "I have my free agency. I can do what I want." I'm not sure, I guess, how much this is used outside of a religious context, or rather the context of kids rebelling against religion. In my religion, agency is very highly valued. We believe that it is necessary to our ability to grow and progress that we have that ability to make choices, meaning that God or someone else doesn't stand over us and force us to do what He wants us to do. But although agency is important, it is often misquoted as "free agency," which if you think about it is wrong. We have agency. We are not forced to act, think, or believe in any way. But it isn't free agency, as all choices have consequences.

Does that help? Is that concept limited to my religious culture? I thought it was more general, but I'm not sure. Maybe I'm going off on a tangent from the discussion in this thread. That was just the thought that came to me and I decided to share it.

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

I've never heard that terminology before, but you're right.

Nothing is ever really free - all actions have reactions and consequences which must be dealt with and a degree of accountability.

::::::::::slowly backing out of topic::::::::::::::

Psst! Mary Alice! Come back here! You don't have to say anything. Just sit here with me, ok?

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

Wendy, wouldn't that then translate to "free will?" God would prefer that we follow His example, but He didn't make us robots, He have is Free Will or Free Choice. We can make our own choices, albeit with their own consequences.

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

Tomi, I think that "free will" makes sense there too. And your summary is exactly what I was trying to say.

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

hehehe But you didn't make typo's like these: He have is Free Will Oops! I didn't proofread! Bad Tomi!!

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

(((((((((((( Tomi )))))))))))

It's my firm belief that your dragon is about the child that suffered injustices from your step-mother. Why else would you react to what I disagree with you on and hear her yelling at you?

You have the right idea, but it just isn't well tuned... My experiences with the wicked step-mother were'nt even the beginning. The best I can figure is that mom and dad's divorce were the first crack in the eggshell, followed by shifting from family to family, both mom's or dad's, and with new step-mothers and brothers and sisters. By 10 years old I'd been in 8 different "families."

I still kept my sense of self somehow because thru it all, I felt loved and wanted by both my mom and dad. At 15 I asked my dad could I go live with my mom, this after 5 years of living with him and wicked woman. Dad agreed to a two week visit, but once I'd escaped the wicked step mom, I felt so free... I'd missed my mom a lot and asked could I live with her, my real-blood sister, and my half-brother (she'd seperated from her second husband by then). Of course she said yes, that's what mom's do, but, dad reacted by telling me I was never allowed back in his house.

I must have cried for a week. Mom tried hard to comfort me, but I don't think I processed it very well, more or less just tried to put it behind me. My sister ran with some delinquents and soon I was part of the group. I dropped out of school, got into trouble for shoplifting, started smoking, drinkning, you name it. My mom kicked me out of the house. I stayed with an older couple and the male sexually abused me. I've never told anyone this.

In court over the shoplifting charge, my attorney made a deal that if I moved back to my dad, I wouldn't have to recieve any sentence. So that's what happened. I never felt wanted back, I had to deal with wicked witch again, my self-esteem collapsed, I drank a lot, continued to spin out of control. I was in a livein tratment center for alcoholics and then a half-way house with grown men at the age of 16. I saw and heard more stories about dereliction and decadence than my young mind could handle. To say I was [censored] up is no exaggeration.

Deep, deep within, I wondered where it'd all gone wrong. I remembered how I'd used to smile, laugh, have fun, felt loved, had friends, life was good. I was not in any therapy. They tried to treat me for alcoholism, but, drinking was only a symptom of the bigger problems.

I treated myself. I read as many books as I could that I thought would give me a sense of self again. There was a section at the used book store I browsed looking for anything that might help. Books about psychology, metaphysics, spirituality, philosophy, religion, looking for that golden nugget of information that would give me back my mind.

Slowly, slowly, the pieces started fitting back together. I became critical of my own thinking and did my best to re-train the self-talk, be optimistic, be friend, a good neighbor, I meditated, I prayed, I sought out nature, and I began to be critical of our society, wondering how much and in what way it had contributed to who I had become.

I began to deplore what I considered "unhealthy" behaviours. People who "lived for the moment" were on my list of spreading mental illness countrywide. Wealthy peole became my scapegoat, then the governemnt, followed by advertising, the music industry, Hollywood, news media, corporations, and even the poor over-worked common man who drank to forget it all. Even humor came under attack as a way of having fun at others expense and avoiding reality.... everywhere I looked I saw mental illness....

Still, I blamed myself. I thought I just needed to learn how to process all this stuff as it seemed so many were capable of. But then, after years and years, I began to realize many people didn't process it. They avoided it, denied it, buried it, ignored it with drugs, money, alcohol, materialism, ignorance, relieving their stress in spouse abuse, gambling, sex, and entertainment. Even religion "God will save us". WHAT IF you're wrong? Maybe he's as thoroughly disgusted as I have been.

So what does a person in this state of mind do? Couldn't very well leave the planet, wasn't even that successful with leaving the city. There was no where to run. Laugh if you want, I even tried contacting the aliens telepathically. Was I crazy yet?

I did work on healing myself Tomi. I have accomplished a lot, and pardon me, but I'm a little offended by the self-agrandizing manner you've repeated that I need to work on myself before I work on society. You're no Dr. You don't know me. You're my friend, and I appreciate the concern, but you're off track.

To quote a line you advised another... "The only way out is through." That's what I'm doing.

This thread has been about society from the beginning, you just haven't realized it.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

"Of course she said yes, that's what mom's do"

Not mine

So how far from a wonderful person can one get ??????

I'm sorry about this pissy and apparently out of context reply - it is sort of directed at the ether out there ...

(((((((((((( Jill ))))))))))))

Meaning for me is in working to make myself better. Using what I've experienced to benefit others. Victor's book sounds like a must read.

Without social activism, we can continue to experience a declining environment physically and emotionally. What are we leaving our children? It is incumbant we each do our part.

Thank you

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

That had to be painful fuzzy

((((((((((((( Hugs ))))))))))))))

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Darrel, I beg to differ with you. This thread wasn't about "society" when it first began. It was about your emotions concerning people having a bit of fun. I still stand on the fact that my "wounded inner child," your "dragon," and Wendy's "cloud" is what our main problem is. We have to nurture now where there was no nurturing in our childhoods, we need to validate and affirm the persons we are. We need to go through to get out of the mire we are in now. You call it what you want, get offended if you want, but the facts are the facts.

With all due respect to Jill, she is one of the worst enablers I've seen. Maybe you feel closer to her now because she is validating your mistakes. Fine. That's your choice and it's her choice. I don't feel bad in the least... except for a bit of disappointment in the fact that you are wasting a wonderful mind avoiding the real issues. Again, that's your choice. You're free to make it or not, but I don't have to nor do I need to depend on them or you for my mental well-being. I will continue to work on my own or with Wendy or whoever chooses to try things the way I have found success with most of my problems. It's been proven to work for years with many people, no matter what the terms used or how it's been skimmed over and then delved into. Again, facts are facts and they speak for themselves.

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

It sounds like you could use a hug. Life has not been kind to you, my friend. You have put tremendous effort into healing yourself, and you have become a wonderful person in spite of all the things that were against you. I'm sorry that you had to go through all that.

Did you ever get therapy, or has your recovery all been self-help? You have so many good qualities and wonderful insight. Either way, you are doing a great job with your recovery.

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

Tomi,

You know I love 'ya, right? But I've got to take Darrel's side on this one. Actually, I'm having a hard time understanding what the conflict is. There is more than one way to approach our problems. Your way is good, and it has helped you and I'm sure countless others. We can all learn from it. But that doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. I'm hearing that the disagreement is mostly about that you are focused on healing yourself from the inside out, while Darrel has more of a focus on society. Why can't you both be right? Both are important. Yes, we have more control over ourselves - society is huge and it's hard to influence it very much. But if it helps Darrel to focus on society, at least some of the time, why is that a problem? Maybe I don't understand. I'm feeling a bit clueless right now. I probably should just butt out.

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

You said 'With all due respect to Jill' and then made a global statement about my person, i.e. 'she is one of the worst enablers I've seen.' That shows no respect at all.

I choose not to have an interaction with you about the veracity of your statement, though I know that in confidence I have disclosed that I have worked hard on 'caretaker/rescuer' issues in the past.

That you should choose to betray that confidence in an open forum like this after over a year of knowing me and saying that you are my friend and that you 'care' is ... well, I guess the word I'll use for now is disappointing.

As you know, I was thrust as a child into parenting my mentally ill Mother and little brother, and I CHOSE to care for my terminally ill friend, (who had no one else), until his passing.

To have labels attached to me willy-nilly, and in a critical, cavalier way, and on an open forum, is not showing respect for me at all, and I feel deeply hurt. Because you, (by your own words), seem to have some concern that Darrel likes me better than you or some such nonsense, is well, again, YOUR issue, not mine.

To invalidate the legitimacy of my post and my thought processes as being nothing more than part of my 'enabling' behavior is...., a sad reflection, again, of your issues. I took no one's 'side'. In fact, the beliefs I offered, (which are mine, are real to me, and by which I conduct my life), easily reconsiled both of your views.

I feel sad, hurt, and disappointed, Tomi. I believed better of you than this. [sad]

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT</font color=blue>

No, Wendy, you shouldn't butt out. You have an opinion, you have a right to state it.

MY problem is that Darrel and I had committed to trying to resolve our differences in at least a polite way, yet he continues to blast me away and call me names. He continues to be rude. I've taken all I can take of that and I've also had enough of the argument for argument's sake. I don't feel that we're working together on this and if it's not going to be productive, then I don't need to get upset over not being able to get through to someone that doesn't appreciate it. I feel that Darrel has a closed mind where this is concerned. If it's not his way, it's no way. Who needs that?!

All things being equal, Wendy, he and I are on two different tracks. What's left to talk about?

I love you, too, Sweetie! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wendy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

Jill, you've been wanting to blast me for a while. In fact you did and then deleated the post. As I remember, it wasn't the first time, either! Go for it, Jill!! Have at it.

Hadn't you noticed that I don't respond to your posts any more?? I've also had enough of going in circles to come to a stop at the same place as before. Enough is enough! You do your thing and I'll do mine.

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

(((((((((((Tomi))))))))))) = step back, OK? You're hurting when you don't need to be. Working through conflict builds stronger friendships; I am not your enemy by any means. I've been in your corner many times, (on CC and on this board, and even on THIS thread), and I think you know that.

Let's work thru. this. Maybe this is happening on this particular thread for a reason.

I don't respect this, Tomi, but I do respect you, and I care about you.

Sincerely, Jill aka ('Jillers'), Hippo & Peanut

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT</font color=blue>

{{{{{{{{{{{{Fuzzy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} There is no perfect parent out there, Sweetie. Some of them just less knowledgable than others. I don't think they all set out to purposely hurt their children, although there are more and more every day that do. But most of them think they are doing the right thing by their kids because that's how they were raised.

Hang in there, Sweetie.

BTW, your post wasn't off topic, ok?

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>