Re: Avatars

<center>{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}</center>

You're right. Jumping into the hole isn't the healthy way of helping people because you can't really help them out since you're down there with them. Or... you help them out and you're stuck again.

The following, I can do and have/am doing:

5. Promote social awareness by explaining the condition to friends, co-workers.

6. Write a book about overcoming depression.

7. Speak your truth. Those who've tried to escape depression need truth, not delusions.

You know how hard it is for others to accept truth? I know... I can put it out there and they may or may not accept it. That's okay. It's the emotional entanglement that is so difficult for me. Something more important that I suppose is the core of what's bothering me: what's the big deal about helping those that are likeable, or even loveable? Those are easy to help. It's the unlikeable and unloveable that probably need the help the most and those are the one's that are so difficult for me. There's where "compassion" comes in for me. Then I think "Where do I get off feeling that way? I've considered myself one of the 'unloveable' ones all my life!"

I could certainly rationalize my thoughts and feelings, but that doesn't help me overcome and grow.

We've really taken a detour from our original intent, haven't we? I'm sorry. Any time you want to get back on track is fine with me.



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still in you.</font color=blue>

I think we're still on track, but maybe getting ahead of ourselves.

See if you agree with this summary:

We were born. We experienced various adverse circumstances. We drew distorted conclusions from those experiences. We followed those conclusions to dead end paths. Now we are attempting to find a new path that leads towards a destination we have chosen.

The questions you've raised regarding compassion seems an example of how we monitor and guide our journey. We assess intention and integrity, evermore sharpening our aim. It's kind of like a GPS. It's probably an ongoing process that many are involved with as they search for answers. As we "score" ourselves, the purpose can become lost in the process and we'll feel guilty or incompetent, or stupid if we don't "measure up." We accomplish the goal of discovering our "position" and then punish ourselves when we believe we've discovered our faults. Where we stand is important to understand, but it should mean no more than that to us. Simply the point we find ourselves at, neither good, or bad. We can be free to choose whether this is acceptable or something we'd like to improve. The decision belongs to you completely and there is no wrong answer.

What you've discovered about yourself and how you respond is the act of self-creation. I think that may be some part of the answer to question 4 : What does the dragon / child / cloud want?

If the dragon / cloud / child wants a re-creation of who I am, I'll need to know where I stand on several self-defining issues. Compassion is only one, but what of the others? What are they? Integrity, sincerity, generosity, fairness, father, mother, child, brother, boss, employee, neighbor, citizen, student, patron, consumer... the list appears endless.

The dragon, etc... points us towards those issues that are most outstanding by reacting to the triggers. A strong reaction on our part illuminates a sensitive subject. We can use the triggers as indicators of what we need to heal. How many times have we avoided something that upset us? As long as it is allowed to exist without resolve, we limit our experience of life. The pain is a thorn that festers. Only surgery will extract it. That means confrontation. Avoidance is not the cure and only serves to deepen the wound. It is not the dragon you need to confront. The dragon is your guide to the center of the pain. We use the dragon for our purpose. He becomes an assistant in the act of self creation and healing.

Ironically, it's running towards, not from our fear that relieves our suffering. Only the least sophisticated person would put a hand in the fire. In the case of the dragon, the fire is internal and we are already standing in it.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Darrel, I don't only agree with all that you've said, I think it is very insightful and beautiful. It's full of loving truths that if anyone wanted to argue it, they'd be hard put to be angry or defensive with their arguments.

Beautifully done, {{{{{{{{{{{Darrel!}}}}}}}}}}}}}



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still in you.</font color=blue>

Thanks Tomi. That's a very kind compliment

It occured to me today my thought was not yet complete. I think when we find ourselves in that crossroads of creation, as well as changing ourselves, the opportunity exists to change our environment. For example, a victim of child abuse might become a children's advocate, working to heal him/her self, heal a child, and heal society simultaneously. We can look at the source of our depressive causes and work in that specific area to make changes in our culture that might improve the quality of life for ourselves and future generations. This is the dragon's redemption. The purpose of the dragon is fullfilled.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

(GOSH DANG IT!! I lost the beginning of my post!! )

I understand what you're saying, Darrel. It's not like I haven't tried. Check out my efforts here:

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.geocities.com/septmorn1/data.html>http://www.geocities.com/septmorn1/data.html</A>

Go down to the fifth paragraph and you'll see what happens when one person in a system changes.

I've also checked into being a children's advocate. The rules of the system went against my grain because so many times, humanity goes by the wayside. One has to go by the letter of the law and there are times, "their" ethics and "my" ethics collide seriously. Ethical law and personal integrity don't work together... at least, not for me.

There's lot more to be said on the subject, but I'm not up for it today. Sorry.



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

(((((((((( Tomi ))))))))))

Hope you're not feeling bad, or did I misinterpret something? Please share any thoughts you feel appropriate and maybe we can work thru them

I wanted to clarify that working in the field which created your dragon / inner conflict is not the only way to heal. You've mentioned the book you or books you're working on. Right on for you! Turning lemons into lemonade Hundreds, maybe thousands, maybe ten thousand people will read you're story and recieve inspiration, or maybe only 10, or twenty. What will that number of people go on to accomplish in life? The ideas are staggering when you consider that they may have offspring who will have offspring and each of those offspring will each bring something into the great picture Maybe an astronaut, or scientist, a financier or philanthropist... leaving no small credit for the mothers who raise those genius's. They are tomorrows world.

This is why I feel we each have a responsibility to do what we can. Be it mentoring, teaching, writing, lecturing, voting, listening, working, volunteering, expressing.... Some causes of depression are environmentally caused. Rather than allowing our environment to beat us over the head, the very action of fighting back gives us the feeling of doing something to change our lives and those who follow. We can replant feelings o worthlessness with feelings of accomplishment, even small steps at a time matter.

For me persoanlly, if it's high rent and low wages that depress me, then I can be active in working on making change, with the power of my vote or joining an organization for reform, or, if no organization exists, starting one. I think many of us, me included, have fallen into the "Let them do it for me" thinking trap. Where are our heroes? Maybe the calvary isn't coming. Maybe we have to build our own weapons, make a fort, ration our supplies, fly our own flag....

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

No, Hun, I'm not feeling bad at all. Maybe it was just where I was when I posted that web address. Maybe it's because I lost my passion for it that I didn't elaborate. I really didn't want to make a big splash with it, ya know?

Darrel, I'm going to answer your post with a PM I sent you earlier as we were discussing some frustration with this thread as well as where you, I and Wendy are on this. I haven't discussed it with Wendy yet, but here is an excerpt from our discussion earlier:

Who knows how many people are watching the thread. We don't know and we don't need to know. It's my experience that long after something has been posted; one or two will write me and thank me. Maybe it was one phrase or a paragraph that triggered something for them. I figure if I reach only one person, then I've helped in a small way. Writing my book is a "grandiose" idea. I know it's not going to be a best seller, IF it even gets published! My main intent is to leave a legacy for my kids. Maybe after I'm dead they'll think "Oh, yeah! Mom wrote about this! Now I understand!" Notice I started that sentence with a "maybe. ... I honestly feel that you are wanting to control something that you can't control. Some people, like you said, don't want to be saved. (I got dinged for putting that word in a poem once. I'm not a "saviour.") There's nothing we can do about it. Remember the saying I mentioned? 'You can lead a horse to water... but you can't make him drink.' "

We can keep our work public on this board and let others watch. They don't have to get involved publicly if they don't feel comfortable with it. Many are just being diagnosed with a mental illness and are just beginning to feel their way around in the dark. This is pretty heavy stuff!

Please let me encourage you to put the focus on yourself. You have to help yourself first before you can help anyone else. Shrink your boundaries down to yourself and please don't worry about the rest of the world for now. This is not to say that you don't have some very valid points in your post above. You're very right, if we're not part of the solution, then we're part of the problem... but let's get rid of some of our own personal problems first, ok?

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

Just to let you guys know = I read this thread daily, and I am trying to work with the ideas expressed right along with you all, though I'm not yet at a point where I feel ready to formally post about it, so I hope you guys will continue on your courageous journey... XOXO, Peanut

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT</font color=blue>

(((((((((( Peanut )))))))))

You're much appreciated

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Tomi

Absolutely right again

<font color=red>I honestly feel that you are wanting to control something that you can't control. Some people, like you said, don't want to be saved. </font color=red>

Thanks for the reminder

Some of the ideas I've expressed are fresh off the press. They may need fine tuning, but I honestly feel we've been slipping into lethargy as a society for several decades because of all our modern "conveniences." I put "conveniences" in quotes because at the same time it's made our life easier, it's made our life more difficult. It seems we've lost the ability or initiative to be self reliant. I'm making the assertion that lethargy is a boost to depression and if I needed to, I'm confident I could find professional support for my opinion.

All I'm suggesting is that we consider the ideas. It's not my intention to prosylitize my beliefs, I'm trying as equally as anyone to see my way thru the murk.

I'm guilty of trying to "think" my way out of depression as much as the next person. I've been told by therapists that for some of us, it can't be done because of a chemical imbalance. I'm not a Dr., but I feel it's possible the imbalance is in some cases caused by deficient response to real controversy. In other words, trying to "think" our way out of a physical problem. Physical because my body, as well as my mind, is in a depressive situation. Signals are sent to my brain to "act." Thinking is not a physical action. Doing is.

Any thoughts?

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Jill, thanks for the vote of confidence. It's much appreciated!



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

I sure wish I had saved the critique I got when I first posted the poem that I used the term "... save those who share my plight." The way I remember it, I was told that I was thinking way to much of myself and giving myself too much power that I don't have. It stung me when it was said, but as I thought about it, it dawned on me that the person who critiqued my poem was right.

A Christian believes that Jesus died on the cross to save humanity from their sins, yet how many actually accept the sacrifice as soul saving? I'm a Christian and I believe it. But what makes me think I have the power to "save" anyone from their wrongful thinking or lack of action?? Even Jesus' sacrifice is rejected day after day and I believe that He is the Son of God! You believe in God, Darrel. Think about what I've just said and see what you come up with. I think that letting go of the idea that you want to "save" people will ease a lot of the frustration and depression that you're feeling.

I honestly feel we've been slipping into lethargy as a society

Not only lethargy, but apathy! So many people cop out by saying "one vote, my voice" won't change a thing so why care, why try. I'm as guilty of that thinking as anyone else.

I put "conveniences" in quotes because ... it's made our life more difficult.

The only thing I have to reference that is what Jerry always preaches at me. Forty years ago, we didn't have the choices we have today. Take the car, for instance. There were Fords and there were Chevys. They were all black and came with the same "extras" which weren't really extras. Now we have a myriad of makes, colors, extras, etc., which puts the buyer into shock or makes him want to get just a bit more than his neighbor got on his model. I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about. You can enlighten me.

Of course, we can consider your ideas. That's what this is all about. But having tried to "save" grandparents the agony I went through made me realize that I had to bring the problem back home... to keep it personal. I avoided my problem, even here in my own State when I got involved in researching the laws and trying to change them. Suddenly, I found myself dealing with grandparents from as far away as England and Australia!! All this time, I forgot about my more immediate problem and solutions for my own situation. I was spread way to thin!! The outcome of that is that I didn't change anything for the State of California, much less for myself!

That's what I mean by narrowing your field of vision for the time being... until you deal with your personal problems and the external reasons for your depression.

Thinking is not a physical action. Doing is.

Exactly!! In my experience with depression, no amount of thinking, much less action will change anything for me because of the chemical imbalance in my brain. I have to restore the "balance" (} before I can even begin to think properly. Depression distorts the perspective to the point that it becomes convoluted; backwards, inside out and sideways!!

I'm not going to tell you what your next action needs to be, but I think you can gather what I'm thinking. The decision is yours and yours alone. To me, you're perspective isn't too far off, though. It's entirely possible that with some minor adjustment to your thinking, a lot of that depression and frustration will disappear on it's own.

BTW, I fully expect the dragon to give out a puff or two of smoke. That's perfectly fine with me.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

Now you've got me thinking about this issue about trying to "save" other people. I think that maybe "save" is just the wrong word. Could we replace it with "help?"

When Darrel posted his list of things we can do for other people, I looked through it and asked myself how many of those I was doing or had plans to do. I am working towards a degree in a helping profession, as I really do enjoy that. I also want to write a book, but I'm not ready to yet. At this point I could write about my problems, and people who have read what start I have made in that direction have told me that they enjoyed it and understood. Although what I am referring to is something that I wrote for myself, out of my need to be understood, I saw in it even at the time the potential for it to help bring understanding for others who have felt some of the same things that I have. It also helps people to be there for them, to listen to them, and understand what they are going through. We all do that on this site.

The word "save" feels like you are granting yourself power beyond what you actually have. We can't save people by jumping into the pit with them and trying to drag them out. People don't get better until they want to, and they have to do the work themselves. Still, we can be there for them and help them. We can at least throw them a rope. If they grab it, we can help pull them up, but only as far as they are able to do their part.

Sometimes we need to focus on ourselves and work on our problems, and make sure our own needs are met. But we can also grow and get better through helping other people. I'm not sure where to draw the line between when we should focus inwards and when we should focus on others. Last spring, within a few weeks after I had sunk to the bottom of my pit and was just barely starting to try to climb out, I became aware that a girl I know (in real life) has many of the same problems that I do. She's bipolar and also a cutter, only 19 years old, and the impact of her problems on her life tends to be more than the effect that my problems have on mine. Aside from the incident last February, I seem to be pretty much functional most of the time. Anyway, I wondered what I might be able to do to help this girl I knew. I sincerely did want to help her, although I was also motivated by wanting to have a connection with someone like me. I asked my T what I might be able to do for this girl, and he told me that it would be better for me not to get involved with her, since I had my own struggles and probably couldn't offer her much, while she had a lot of potential to just drag me down. It probably wasn't the time for it. Also, she isn't looking for help. She has rejected meds and therapy and is still hanging around with the same friends she gets in trouble with.

Later on, I found this site. I was looking for people like me, both because I wanted to have a connection with people who have been there and can truly understand, but I also wanted the chance to help someone else.

Helping doesn't have to be limited to people with mental illnesses either. Last spring, one of the leaders in my church knew about my incident and was concerned about me. She kept asking what she could do to help me. I couldn't think of anything. Eventually, I found the answer, and it was to ask her to give me opportunities to help someone else. We have an older couple in the church who live in their own home with their adult daughter who is developmentally disabled. The mother is physically very weak and also has alzheimer's, so she can't take care of the family. The father is mentally competent but old and he can't do everything. So, I take a turn once a month to take dinner to this family and check on them and make sure that they are getting by okay. That kind of service opportunity helps us too.

So, maybe we can't "save" other people, and it would be a mistake to think that that was our role, or to charge ourselves with that responsibility, but we can "help" people, and helping someone else does aid our own healing process. It doesn't have to be big things, but focusing on someone else, just some of the time, does make a difference, and you don't have to have your own dragon dealt with in order to start. Just start small.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs for all}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

The dragon started to huff and puff, on both recent posts, but he didn't get out of control either time

I'm about to say some things that might really shock you, considering you are a Christian. I believe in God, and I believe in the wisdoms of many faiths.

First, what I hear is your caution that I am taking on too much, or trying to be too big for myself. I disagree. I am empowering myself to take action and charge of my own life. I think I am more or less typical of most people. I don't hear their voices, but I'm sure there are those who've suffered the same as I have and for the many of the same causes. What I put down here is directed to them as much as for myself. I'm certain you wouldn't do it intentionally, but your discouragement amounts to "de-empowering" me.

Second, the Bible, IMO, reduces our sense of individual power in these aspects:

a. Life is suffering. Why should we accept this concept?

b. There is only one saviour. It's not my intention to debate the definition of saviour or the intent of the statement. BUT, I do think this simple statement effectively ties our hands from daring to attempt to enlighten ourselves or others. The end result is, no one at all should attempt to lift up the masses. The implied incredulation is "Just who do you think you are?" The answer given by the Bible is: Just wait right here, make no moves until "the saviour" comes. Sounds like a corporate plot designed to keep it's employees from going on strike.

This statement might lead you to believe I want to be a saviour. I am not on a religious quest. I have no more ambition to be a saviour than a doctor, fireman, quarterback, etc... Do I want to save myself? Yes! Would I feel great if others were helped along the way, or chose to chip in and offer their input? Absolutley!

I have been labeled "wanna be saviour". I didn't take the title nor do I want it. I'm attempting (to use a phrase I hate, but it applies) to think outside the box. Daring to think for myself instead of swallowing every cockamamee theory some new age guru puts forth on how to avoid the pain and feel bliss... Ever wonder why these guys keep coming back with more ideas? Because none of them work, the pain stays with us until we face it.

We re-hash the same old dogma never making any real progress. We get doped up and the pain is less severe, so we accept this is the best there is. You even exemplify exactly what I mean:

Exactly!! In my experience with depression, no amount of thinking, much less action will change anything for me because of the chemical imbalance in my brain.

That is not my point exactly. What I said is the imbalance is possibly caused by <font color=red>inaction</font color=red>. I'm reminded of the rhetoric some politicians echo back and forth between each other like a broken record " WOMD's" until it's firmly engrained on our brain there are no other points worth considering. The depression equivelant is "chemical imbalance." It get's tossed back and forth like some catchy office lingo that no one can resist taking part in. Even the doctors have no idea what causes this imblance. But we do have a pill for it. I don't mean to be insulting, but please re-read my post, and make sure you understand it before it is quoted.

Finally, this may be a small point, but in reference to an earlier statement you made such as "getting rid of our bad feelings". We can't get rid of our bad feelings. We can transform them.

Please remove me from your "saviour" list and put me down at a human level and allow me to have my own sense of empowerment, that HELL YES, I hope is contagious.

I apologize in advance that this seems to be an attack on you. It is not. It is a defense on me. ((((((( Tomi )))))))


"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

I wanted to stop in here and give you a hug guys...

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel Tomi Wendy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You are all amazing


Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown

Yep! I figured I'd wake that dragon. Didn't I tell you?

I could sense that as you wrote, you became angrier, but that's okay. Angry is okay as long as you don't hurt someone and you didn't do that.

I didn't label you "saviour." What I said about Jesus was just an example. Even One that made the ultimate sacrifice is rejected daily. That's all. I'm not going to get into a "Christianity" debate with you, but not all Christians are the same. I don't believe that life is meant for "suffering" (that was my mom's idea, not mine!) and we sure as heck aren't supposed to sit around and just wait for the Saviour to come back! I think it's best we just drop the religion thing because we can get so badly sidetracked trying to discuss it.

HaHa! "Just who do you think you are?" That's exactly how I felt when I got dinged! Like I said, it smarted!

"That is not my point exactly. What I said is the imbalance is possibly caused by inaction." Not in my case. My depression can get so severe that at one point, I couldn't even motivate myself to get up off the edge of the bed and go to the bathroom. "Inaction" didn't cause my depression. It was the other way around.

"We can't get rid of our bad feelings. We can transform them." If the bad feelings are then "transformed" into good feelings, then the bad feelings are gone. In essence, we got rid of them.

"Please remove me from your 'saviour" list and put me down at a human level..." Hun, I'm sorry, but there's only One on my saviour list. I didn't say anything about you being "a wanna be saviour" anymore than I wanted to be one when I used that word in a poem, for Pete's sake! It's only a matter of tweaking one's thoughts to a more realistic one. It's amazing how one word can change our perspective.

I'm sorry that you felt you needed to defend yourself. That implies that you feel attacked and that was never my intention.

Why don't you re-read Wendy's post. She said basically the same thing I said only SO much better.



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

(((((((((( Tomi ))))))))))

My whole post sounded more argumentive than I intended. Reading it, I can hear the "yelling" myself, so I can understand if it read that way to you. The angry tone was not intended and I'm sorry I couldn't find softer terms to reply with. Congratulations on controlling "the child"

Definately, yes, let's abandon the religious posturing. I don't want to go there any more than you.

I had intended to include the suggestion that as children, we were "trained" to be inactive. Reviewing our previous answers, what happened to us when we attempted to defend ourselves or reject the treatment of significant others, teachers, parents, peers? Didn't we learn that inaction was the only "safe" response?

Later, when we went out into life and faced controversies, what did we know about asserting ourselves? If we did try to assert ourselves, did we recieve the results we hoped for? Or did we over-react, under-react? Did we then reinforce our belief that "acting" in any way to clear our minds and find our place was useless?

Do you see the repetition of the word or variants "act"? "I shouldn't have acted that way" "I should have acted this way." These simple statements say a lot, don't they? Guilt, should have, action. What place does this word have in our treatment then?

Did we learn, as children, that no action would "save" us, or "help" us? Do we feel as adults that action is useless?

I'm just thinking. Thinking that thinking is the problem. As someone else recently posted elsewhere, actions like going to therapy, writing a journal, even meditating are equal to wallowing. The very idea of trying not to think about it, is thinking about it. You have to think about what you don't want to think about.

Could the process of acting on our feelings constructively be what we've been missing? I was stumped trying to think of how I would react to my step-mother today as an adult under the circimstances I endured as a child. Does that suggest that I still don't know how to act against intimidation? Is it possible that my adult life has been repetitious because I've never learned how to properly act in defense? We hear how many depressives are "stuck" at immature levels. Could it be because they haven't learned how to act constructively in their own behalf?

I know very little about behavioural therapy. Is that what it teaches us?

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

(((((((( Wendy )))))))))

I think that maybe "save" is just the wrong word. Could we replace it with "help?"

An emphatic YES

Please continue trying to help others Wendy. Tomi makes good points that we need to be mindful of ourselves throughout the process, but if we can, helping others is helping ourselves and helping all.

You do make a difference. No BS, I truly appreciate your clear, even minded perspectives, I just wish you could give us more

I don't have much comment on your posts simply because I agree. It's food for thought.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

((((((((( Heather ))))))))))

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Ok... for some reason I'm feeling like I was the one that used the word "save." Maybe I was on another board, but not here. I suggested to Darrel that the word should be changed... so how come I'm feeling blamed for using it?

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

((((((((((((((( Tomi )))))))))))))))))

Surrounding the term "save" we've had three views.

1. Tomi: Only Jesus is qualified as "Saviour".

2. Darrel: I have the power to "save" myself.

3. Wendy: A more appropriate term is "help."

Not saying that you didn't, but I honestly don't recall where you suggested that the term be corrected. If you had, and if I'd noticed it, I certainly would have agreed as I did with Wendy.

Blamed: I wonder if "the child" is reacting? I admit that it appears I made a very big deal out of what I interpreted as being transposed to the role of saviour. I won't defend my response any further, now it's about you.

Why do you feel blamed?

The "child" is welcome and even encouraged to respond. ((((( Tomi )))))

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Tomi,

Maybe it's because you were the one who got me started thinking about the terminology, so I replied to your message. I intended for my tone to be supportive of what you had said, but I did worry that you might feel like I was arguing or accusing you of being argumentative, even though all I intended was to input my thoughts that were sparked by the discussion.

As usual, this thread is bringing up some deep issues and profound observations. It's only to be expected that someone is going to gt a nerve touched now and then. But I think that we do all understand that we're just trying to explore the issues and gain a better understanding of them, and that the last thing any of us want is to hurt anyone else, even if we have disagreements.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Tomi}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{Peanut}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{Heather}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{Bevers}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{Anyone I might have missed}}}}}}}}}}

-Wendy

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

You do make a difference. No BS, I truly appreciate your clear, even minded perspectives, I just wish you could give us more

Thanks Darrel. That means a lot to me. When I have more to say, I'll be sure to let you know what it is.

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

The first time I made mention of the word "saved" and "saviour" was in my PM to you in which I asked you if I could post part of it and you said "yes." We had been writing about our frustration with the lack of involvement by others. Here is my sentence from the part of the PM and then the post.

"Some people, like you said, don't want to be saved. (I got dinged for putting that word in a poem once. I'm not a "saviour.")"

I was trying to convey that thought gently at that point. Then notice my terminology after the quote from my PM to you:

"You have to help yourself first before you can help anyone else." I told you I had been "stung" when it was called to my attention. After I got over it, I thought about it and realized it was pretty egotistical of me... but not before I gave it a lot of thought.

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wendy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I don't know what started that feeling. But what counts is that we are expressing our thoughts and feelings surrounding that issue and others, too. I don't think we have to know exactly why we feel what we feel. What's important is to talk it out, work through it and clear it up. That's what we're doing.

Maybe it was my child that reacted, but I'm thinking that it's not... at least, not totally. She isn't screaming and stomping and throwing a fit! hehe I've searched my feelings today... or should I say, I got in touch with "my inner child" and it seems I heard her say "Leave me out of it. I trusted you to take care of it and you did. You validated us."

Maybe "the adult" just needed some clarification, eh?

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>