Re: Avatars

Nowhere,
Thank-you for sharing your great insights.

Actually, I was the oldest (of six). My sister that I mentioned is 2 1/2 years younger than I am, and I continually felt that I was being held back to wait for her to catch up with me, and that she was holding me back to get ahead. We look very different from each other. I have light hair and am 5' 1", and she has dark hair, darker coloring in general, and is 5' 5". I don't know if one of us is prettier than the other. There are pictures of both of us on my website. When we were young, people often thought that we were twins, as she caught up to me in size fairly early. Our temperments are different also. I was always more independent, while she never questioned authority, and was just like our mother, and since she never questioned things and thought just like mom did, she was trusted more and given more freedom and power. I was no rebel - I just wanted to think for myself, but that wasn't acceptable. When I describe her, people are usually surprised that I am the oldest.

I did a lot of searching for just one person who could understand me and who would not think I was bad for having the feelings that I did.

This all fits pretty well with Alfred Adler's personality theory. Although I don't think as much of his theory in general compared to some of the others (most of it is gross oversimplification), he had some thoughts on birth order that fit my family. He thought that second and other middle children were most likely to be successful in life, as oldest, youngest, and only children are too likely to be either pampered or neglected by the parents, which are the two causes of psychopathology in his theory. Your comments on raising childrent to be aggressive, labeling aggression with more socially acceptable terms ties right in with Adler also. He felt that social cooperation was the key to being well adjusted. Aggressiveness is a trait that I go out of my way to avoid. One common theme every time I have been in therapy has been that they try to get me to be more assertive and I don't want to because I can't tell where assertiveness ends and turns into aggressiveness.

Thanks again! You really have wonderful insight.

<font color=blue>Life is filled with tragedy; if you let it overwhelm you, you cannot enjoy life's innocent pleasures. -Robert Heinlein</font color=blue>

<center>{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

I missed you yesterday. Hope everything is okay with you and that you haven't fried any more brain cells thinking too hard.

Take care of you, ok?

PS I think I might have made a breakthrough last night with my wounded inner child. If not, at least I understand a little bit more about what makes her tick. It has to do with "the child" I become when I'm with my grandkids. Two are almost four, one is a year old and the other ten years old but waaaaaaaaay beyond his years. Something very interesting to explore... but not today. I need to recover.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

This is more like a page in my journal rather than directed at any one person. Any and all input is welcome.

In the last post I mentioned that I may have made some inroads in understanding my "wounded inner child." It's been obvious to me for a while now that when I'm with my grandkids, I turn into a little kid somewhere between 3 and 10. Those ages, for me, were traumatic. I've realized through this and the last board I used to belong to, that I've always battled depression and anxiety in one form or another. My mom used to tell me that she worried about me because I wasn't an active child. I would rather sit on the couch and play with my dolls. When we lived across the street from a park, if she saw kids playing there, she'd take me over and ask the kids if I could play with them. I never did. My inner child was very alone and very lonely. I didn't have any siblings. I had friends from time to time, but only one at a time.

Now I recognize that thwarted, frustrated child when I'm with my grandkids. I was playful with my own kids, but I didn't know about boundaries back then. I was too rough with them and refused to believe them when they told me I was hurting them. My mom used to tell me I had "Apache Love." LOL Whatever that is! Rough, I guess. I'm not rough with my grandkids now. I love to hug them and kiss them, tickle them, have food fights with them, play in the mud with my granddaughter, I no longer get angry when she squirts me with the hose. It used to piss me off so dang bad when I was younger!! I'm amazed when my grandkids show affection for me, want to sit on my lap and eat part of my dinner and feed me bites of their dinner. It amazes me when they run to meet me and want me to pick them up and carry them around... which I can't do. But I do hold them when I'm sitting. I encourage them to be silly and sometimes, to do things that their parents don't want them to do... like playing under the dinner table after they finish eating. (hehehe) I wish I could get under there with them, but I do my fair share of playing anyway. Most of all, and probably the most meaningful is... I need to hug them tight and for a long time (as hugs go). I can feel myself drawing love from them, filling up my senses or my heart or whatever it is that fills up. I can get tearful when my one year old grandson puts his grubby little paws on my face and jabbers at me. I have no objection to his open mouthed kisses and the drool he leaves behind. It tastes good! My ten year old grandson!!!! ... I don't know... there's a magical, wonderful connection between us. I go weak just thinking of him! Sometimes the tears just roll when I think about him or talk about him. My love for him is returned tenfold! I don't understand it! I don't know why he should love me so much! I feel he needs my undivided attention and I can never give him enough! ... Or is it that I can't get enough? I hardly ever get to see them, but his three yr old little brother drinks me up when he's with me. He's so beautiful and so gentle... they both are! So incredibly sweet!!

This isn't a grandma bragging about her grandchildren. This is an old woman with a wounded child within that cries to be let out; that needs to receive and give back that innocent, unconditional love that only children can give. This is a child that was denied... a child that was denied...

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

It sounds like you are learning how to play. That's wonderful! I don't know how to play. My husband keeps saying that he will teach me, whether I like it or not. My T keeps asking if I do anything fun. Apparently, it's supposed to be okay to play and to have fun. It sounds like it is good for you and is helping to heal your inner child. Keep it up! {{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}

<font color=blue>Life is filled with tragedy; if you let it overwhelm you, you cannot enjoy life's innocent pleasures. -Robert Heinlein</font color=blue>

I take my cues from the kids, Wendy. I'm also learning to shed all the old mistaken values that were imposed on me. Thanks for that wonderful insight! I had missed that one. {{{{Wendy}}}}

You're husband can't teach you whether you want to learn or not. It has to come from within you. If he tries to force you, it will become a punishment rather than a delight. It is okay to giggle and more so, to laugh out loud. It's good for the soul as well as the body. Laughing, like crying is a release of tension and increases the release of endorphins, something we are short on. They are both cleansing and perfectly okay to do, otherwise we wouldn't have been given these gifts.

A quote from Bob Hope: "I have seen what a laugh can do. It can transform almost unbearable tears into someting bearable, even hopeful."

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

{{{{{{{Sept}}}}}}}}}} how well I understand that powerful emotion. I look at my son and I wonder how I could love someone that much, so much that it overwhelms me. He asked me once if kisses wear off, and I told him, no, kisses stay on you forever, they just soak into your skin and become part of you.

Children are incredibly special, and I tell Alex all the time that he is a beautiful child, inside and out.

Mary Alice

hahaha My 10 yr old granson has gotten into the habit of wiping his face where I kiss him. They do that at that age. I tell him that he can't rub them off. They're there to stay. He doesn't believe me and I get a look of incredulity when I point to where I've kissed him. I tell him "See? I can even see them!" hehehe He asks his dad every time if he can see them. My son knows the game so he says "Yes. Can't you see where she kissed me when I was 8? And over here, she kissed me when I was 9..." and so on and so on. hahaha! The kid doesn't know what to believe! I had him convinced I was magic when I used to live in a gated community. I knew right about where the car would be when the gate swung open to let me out and I would say "Open! Open! Open!" hehehe He'd say "Abuela, you're magic!!!" (Abuela is grandmother in Spanish.) I adore that child!!!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Ok,
I don't even have kids but reading your stories (Mary Alice and September) I got all teery and that knot thing in my throat.

I can just see the love you have for those kids. I do have 4 nieces and 2 nephews and I miss them like crazy.

There is nothing like those little arms around your neck. And when they look at you with such love and admiration it's just blows me over. So sweet!!

You touched my day.
Heidu

Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending.
~ Carl Bard ~

(image)http://us.greet1.yimg.com/img.greetings.yahoo.com/g/img/mmm/himm.gif(/image)

Welcome to the club, Heidu! I think that it's the innocense and lack of conditions and judgements that makes their love and acceptance so special. I love a good adult hug but there's nothing like the feel of those little arms around your neck or when they lay their little heads on your shoulder... total and utter trust! (s i i i g h!)

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Babies Rock !!! Thanks for the images... I can see those slobbery kisses... It was so great when my son was too little to defend himself and I'd kiss him and tickle him all over and he'd giggle so much and wet his pants... what a good memory... thanks you guys

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

<center>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

Welcome back! Hope you recuperated nicely!

Yep! Babies do rock!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

I feel changed somehow, somehow related to this... I'm going to try and post up my answers tonite... I've been thinking a lot on it. Thanks for your patience and "being there."

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

<center>{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

I dropped out of this thread and missed your good stories, SeptMorn. I miss my babies and can't wait for them to have their own so I can play with them.

Bumper sticker: Wherever you go, there you are

Kvin, they're even more fun that your own kids, believe it or not. Grandkids and the love you have for them is so entirely different than your kids and how you felt about them. Somehow it feels like "more" but you know it's not. Maybe because you don't feel so responsible for them or because you know so much more than you did when you were raising your own. I haven't figured it out yet, but I sure do enjoy it!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Ok, I think I have some sort of grip on this now. When I made up the questions, I used the elemental rules of discovery. The four W's plus How. I thought if I could answer these questions, I would discover all the parameters of the dragon. I don't know if I was successful, but, here it is:

1. How did the dragon come to be?

From isolation. I began an inner dialogue with "the dark side."

2. How did it grow?

By failing to meet self-expectations and assigning guilt and feelings of inadequacy.

3. What is it about?

It has changed shape over time. Currently it is about social and economic disadvantages, political, corporate, and media irresponsibility, greed, corruption, exploitation, apathy, etc., etc.

What does it want?

The dragon wants his issues to be recognized.

How can we help it?

By recognizing his issues and acting on them proactively. The dragon is wounded. He wants me to defend him.

How will we reintegrate the dragon?

By recognizing his issues, acting on them proactively, simultaneously healing him and myself at the same time.

What can I learn from the dragon?

I can learn to express all my issues in a healthy, positive, self/other reinforcing way. Not to repress my "negative" emotions. That there is no good or bad emotion, just emotions. That negotiating these emotions with others is honoring myself, and the way in which the entire world is created anew on an everyday basis.


"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Darrel, it seems you went from the personal to the general between questions 2 and 3. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the problems you stated in #3 beyond your control? The only things you can change are personal things. It's difficult for me to absorb the fact that you would have the ability to do something about these injustices in the world. Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture or I'm missing something... but like they say "Let there be peace and let it begin with me."

A single person or perhaps a small group have been known to raise such a ruckus about some things that they can effect a change, small as it may be, but...

Maybe I need you to explain this to me in greater depth. Maybe you have it within you to lead people, large groups, to effect changes...

Gonna give up now before I get tangled in my own web. hehe I'll wait for your explanation.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Darrel,

In this thread you have been developing your own personal theory of personality. It so often ties in to what I am learning for my Theories of Personality class. At this point in the class we have just gotten through most of the theorists who built on the psychodynamic perspective. You should be in this class!

Here are some thoughts on your dragon that grow out of what I am learning in my class:

The dragon represents psychopathology and/or conflict. Most theorists I have studies so far agree that psychopathology differs from normalcy in degree rather than kind. Therefore, everybody has some of the same kinds of conflicts, but when it gets to the point that it is a problem in your life is when it can be considered to be a psychopathology.

1. The theorists disagree about the dark side of our psyches. Some overemphasize it, and others fail to recognize that it exists. Some feel that it is important to recognize the dark side, although it is always unpleasant and difficult.

2. Feelings of inadequacy stemming from failing to measure up to an unrealistic idealized self-image is a fairly common theme. Karen Horney, in particular, believed that "neurotics" (I guess that's us ) develop an idealized image which helps us to conceal our painful inner conflicts. The idealized image appears quite realistic to its creator, but always brings about eventual defeat since we can't live up to the ideal. Alfred Adler felt that we develop a superiority complex in order to cover up our feelings of inferiority.

3. Erich Fromm had a lot to say about all of these factors. "In addition to such pathogenic parental behaviors as authoritarianism, narcissism, passiism, and physical abuse, neurosis is often caused by the culture in which one lives." Fromm, therefore, calls for social reform. Some of the things he sees as problems include advertising, politics, beurocracy, repetitive and unstimulating jobs, overcrowded cities, the threat of nuclear war, poverty and unfair economic differences. One of his statements is, "The real problem of mental life is not why some people become insane, but rather why most avoid insanity."

(The rest seems to want to merge together.)

Karen Horney's approach to therapy is for the patient to discover that their neurotic solution to live (overemphasizing one of three approaches to dealing with people while repressing the other two, and creating an unrealistic self image) causes frustration and self-contempt. Also to discover the inner conflict and recognize the repressed needs.

Alfred Adler's goal is to promote a new and more socially interested style of life by bringing to light the painful inferiority complex, examining our misguided life goals, and realizing that we do not actually have a lack of ability and can overcome our problems through effort.

Carl Jung believed that it was important to examine our inner conflicts and the less pleasant components that are part of everyone's personality, and bring the conscious and unconscious opposites into harmonious unity, restoring the normal corse of individuation.

I should at least mention Sigmund Freud, especially since all of these other theorists built on his work. He's really too negative and pessimistic for me though, although some of his theory is good. It doesn't seem as relevant to your comments though.

I have probably done a lot of oversimplification, so let me know if you want to know more about anything I mentioned. I'm sure that when I get into other theorists those will apply here also. Thanks for helping me study for my upcoming test!

Recognize the dragon and his wounds, examine what he represents and the merit in what he has to say, even if it is not all pleasant. Honor yourself and your feelings. It sounds like you are on the right track!

You really have some great ideas. Keep it up! Maybe several years down the road you will be one of the new personality theorists whose philosophy is required reading for psychology students.


<font color=blue>Life is filled with tragedy; if you let it overwhelm you, you cannot enjoy life's innocent pleasures. -Robert Heinlein</font color=blue>

September

Your questions are great and I thank you for asking them. I wanted to elaborate, but sometimes it's better to wait for the question before giving the answer, no?

Yes, I do feel I can do something about the injustices I mentioned. We all can. Not to sound rude, but recheck your statement that the "only things we can change are personal." Not true.

Yes we do have to perform inner development and overcome our own demons before we can set goals of changing the world. And I am mindful of the saying we can only change ourselves. It's a lie. Sorry to be blunt, but it is.

Like it or not, we all set an example everyday of something, be it good, or bad. That changes the world.

I do believe in setting a good example, but that is not always enough. At some point, it's our responsibility to become teachers. I'm not saying I'm at that point, but I want to strive to get there.

Depression, I'm sure you can agree, delivers profound messages and discoveries at times. Let's not look at depression as an evil thing for a moment.

For example: A man goes to his favorite ice-cream parlor, craving his favorite flavor, but when he get's there, guess what? This store stopped carrying that brand. So what does the guy do? His craving is driving him crazy. He had his heart set on that flavor, and only that flavor will do. (Could we compare his craving to wanting to be loved or treated with dignity?)

So he sets about town, stopping in every joint he passes to find his flavor. No luck. He sits on the corner and mourns the loss of this one little treat that always made him smile. One simple joy he can longer turn to for comfort. What a bummer.

After some time, he thinks, what if? What if I started selling this product in my spare time? I could have my flavor (and eat it too) and make money on the side.

What if we took our pain from losing something, even something we never had, and instead became the producer of it? Alchemy?

I hope, as you do, to write books Tell my story, use my education to gain knowledge and learn skills and achieve credibility.

The written word is powerful as you know. Your audience is vast and unlimited in our free country. Newspapers, journal articles, books, phamplets, online, etc., etc.

It was freedom of the press that played such a role in organizing the patriots before our own revolution. It's one way of liberating the dragon.

Do I want to lead? No, I'll settle for just being involved. If I can encourage anyone else along the way, great, that's what I want to do.

Too many mind-numbing escape mechanisms have been introduced to us. That we can only change ourselves is one example. I can think of several others.

I'm not discounting the very real medical depression of some. The depression I refer to is society generated, and society supported. Bandaids on broken arms are not the answer.

Stepping down from the pulpit now, thank you

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Very interesting Rapunzel, agreat addition to the thread... thank you very much

Fromm and Adler sound very interesting to me. Share as much as you can when you feel it appropriate, ok?

I'd be interested in reading your paper on bullies. My e-mail is in my profile.

Thanks again

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Darrel, you and I are dealing in apples and oranges it seems. I am trying to change the personal and you are trying to change the general; two different approaches.

Perhaps I chose the wrong word when I said you can only change the personal. I should have said "control." However, I did mention the saying on peace. Still, we have to find inner peace before we preach it to others or it won't be believable or sincere. We need to learn motivation, a self-control issue, in ourselves and our personal life before we can hope to change apathy in a general setting. So in essence, my statement is fact. It is also a fact that you can't hope to change a partner or friend with whom you are in a relationship. You can only change your own actions and reactions. Again, I'm dealing with inner personal issues and you are dealing with external issues... or so it would seem.

As for Depression, right now I can't think of anything positive I have derived from it other than experience. The experience of Depression is not good, productive or fun. I find that my perspective is terribly scewed when I'm depressed. Everything less than positive in reality, changes from minor to extremely major. Depression in itself is mind numbing and apathy producing. We can set goals for ourselves all day long but when it comes to getting out of bed and washing our faces, we're stumped, immobilized by the demon Depression. In turn, we become frustrated, demorilized and our anger is turned inwards on ourselves perpetuating the vicious cycle.

Wendy has some very valid points in her post. I hope you re-read it and weigh it in your gut to see how it settles with you. If you hear any faint tinkling of bells, read her post yet again. There's no way for me to really know, but I'm hoping you aren't setting goals that are too high for you at the present time.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

I have been so busy doing house stuff that I haven't been able to do anything more with this thread than skim over it.
I'll try to catch up when I can.
One thing that caught my eye yesterday was the same thing that caught Nowhere. "only things we can change are personal."

I do believe that we are the only ones who can change ourselves. We can fake it for awhile for someone else but ultimately it has to come from a desire and a commitment within us to really make a change.

I do also believe that every little bit counts in a global sense. (an ink theory possibly?) If 1 person in each town in the world decided they were going to smile at everyone they saw for today. Then imagine the amount of smiles that would generate from that just for one day. Say half of the people smile back and say a quarter of those people decided it was nice and that they wanted to smile at someone else. Just imagine.

Have any of you seen the movie "pay it forward"? A very good movie with a very good message. It is along the lines of what one person can do in the world. We all start in our little corner. If a few people scattered around decide to do the same thing then you have a "group" that doesn't even know they are a group but they can make a difference.

We can't create world peace ourselves but we can practice tolerance and understanding. I'm sorry, I am gonna end here. There is so much to say and I find this such an interesting topic. (like you didn't notice)

I hope everyone has a good day and in thier own little way, makes a difference.
Heidu

Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending. ~ Carl Bard ~

September,

"we have to find inner peace before we preach it to others or it won't be believable or sincere. We need to learn motivation, a self-control issue, in ourselves and our personal life before we can hope to change apathy in a general setting."

Very well said.

I also agree with you that I see no positives coming from depression. I only see it as for the time I am depressed my life has stopped, becomes void and meaningless.

I was going to type in "Like you!!" here and sign off but then I realized my last line was "becomes void and meaningless" and that's SOOOO rude and inappropriate.

And now I was gonna add it here but I ended with "rude and innappropriate".

So, I am gonna sign off here and just be happy I didn't do something really stupid. Oh good grief!!!

Forget the cute little "like you"

I like you!!!!!
Heidu

Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending. ~ Carl Bard ~

((((((((( September ))))))))))

There is no right and wrong. Just the ability to percieve. My depression is personal. It comes in the form of social pressure and the things that make up society. Society affects me personally, if it doesnt for you, then you wouldn't understand.

No, I don't think I'm setting my goals too high. I believe I can make a difference for myself just by trying, and if accidentally it benefits anyone else, then so be it.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

I am just going to pop in here with a couple of thoughts....this is such an interesting thread....love it

I do think that somehow depression can be positive I know you are all thinking - ok - what did she put in her tea this morning? but I do feel that when something good can come out of something bad...well that is a positive right?

Of course...me being Miss Cheery Positive Person always feels like this....that whole theory of making lemonade with lemons. I guess what I am trying to point out is that - yes it is hard to see anything good coming out of depression but when you look beyond the feelings/emotions and look at the lessons you are learning and have learned about yourself and how you deal/cope with things......that is positive.




Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown