Post deleted by DocJohn

Hi Ian,

Been there, done that (still doing it actually!)

First, stop hating yourself for allowing your parents to help you. I am the youngest of four and my parents continue to be there in whatever way needed for all of their adult children ( ages ranging 47-38.)

Life and the way we imagine that ours "should" be...well, that doesn't always work out, does it? Sounds like you're in the process of learning that right now. I was out on my own for years, then had financial, emotional and career setbacks and took my parents up on their offer to move back home to get things together. Well, I did and through various circumstances am still here! Like you, I get down on myself often and call myself every name in the book for living the way I am. That only feeds into underlying feelings of depression and low self-esteem.

Then of course I start going down that, "Oh, they are just enabling me" road. As if they are the cause of all my problems! They are not! **** happens and we grow up and have to find our own way. Sure, I wish they had encouraged me more, not been so over-protective while I was growing up, talked to me about my future, my goals, you know? Also, being the youngest of four, and with the greatest age difference between me and my next oldest sibling, I often felt like I got "lost in the shuffle" growing up....invisible at times, at other times I just felt "in the way," like, why did they even have me?

Then I have a mish mosh of feelings running around in my head, I love them, I hate them, how dissapointing I must be to them, a complete embarassment to them, do they hate me???? Yikes!

This is where I have to reign myself in and look at the facts (just the facts, ma'am!) Wow, if they didn't care about me they never would have done, nor would they continue to give me a hand at every turn in my quest to turn my life around. They are not enabling, in fact they say it all the time when they hear about some parents who turn their backs on their children. They aways say that they would do anything for us, and they have proven it.

I think that makes me lucky. You too, sounds like.

Let them help you find your way, discover what it is you want, where you feel you "belong." I think that as long as they see you making an effort (either by going for counseling, taking a few college classes, working at ANY job, even part-time) they will be proud of you and in turn your self-esteem will rise knowing that they are proud of you and happy for you.

Ian, I've picked myself up and dusted myself off more times than I care to remember, ever since I was a teenager. There are times when I get knocked down for what I'm sure will be the last time............I can't even find the strength to get up, let alone TRY AGAIN! And I get mad........"Hey, isn't life supposed to 'work out' for you at some point if you just keep trying??? If you continually get knocked down and keep picking yourself up again?" Seems logical. We'll see.

I don't know if you've been able to talk to your parents they way you've opened up here, to us. They might know, or they might not have a clue as to how you are struggling right now. Are you able to talk to them about these things, and let them know you'd like to work on becoming the person you truly want to be? I think that at least then you'd feel a little less hard on yourself, knowing that they know that you have goals, that you are not "a leech." Though, my guess is, they already know this!

I'll say it again, look around. How many people have parents that aren't even here anymore? How many have parents who don't give a damn? Or are too wrapped up in themselves to see their own child is suffering before their eyes? It sounds like you and I lucked out in that department and I'm going to take their help (and love!) in hopes that I can grow stronger with it and achieve what at times seems insurmountable. I think you need to share what you are going through with them and let them help you to help yourself.

Take care,
Pebs


<font color=purple> The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated--Gandhi

Sometimes I lie awake at night in bed and I ask, "Is it all worth it?" And then a voice says, "Who are you talking to?" And another voice says, "You mean, ' To whom are you talking?'" And I say, "No wonder I lie awake at night."--Charlie Brown </font color=purple>

So your parents do care about you. I think it's okay for you to be accepting help from them. They are willing to give it and you're not quite ready to take on the world yet. What can you do to take just a small step in that direction so you could be a little more independent? If you're ready, that is. I have a sister who is 29 and a brother who is 25 who still live with my parents. Just getting out of the house would be a good start for them. You've done that much.

<font color=blue>Life is filled with tragedy; if you let it overwhelm you, you cannot enjoy life's innocent pleasures. -Robert Heinlein</font color=blue>

From what I have read, you are not crazy. You can fix your problems. Not all at once, one at a time. You have a lot of insight. Have you considered seeing a therapist? I know you have been to the hospital, but that is a different beast. A therapist can help you organize the mess you know about, and help you find and organize the messes you have not yet become aware of.

Are you are an adult now in Canadian law? You may be able to get public assistance for food, housing, and treatment while you get it together on your own. Your parents pay taxes. Think of it as getting some of it back in time of need. That is what it is there for.

---

I have to say something so other reading what I have said about my relationship with my wandering son does not make me look like a scoundrel. I have 2 sons. The older is a "model" citizen. He has a college degree, and engineering job, and a wonderful wife. He worked his butt off to get the degree and job. The younger is a genius, without a doubt very high iq. He has deliberately and willfully taken the hard road. He knowingly refuses to look beyond the moments pleasure and plan for the future. He wants every day to be a surprise, good or bad. Today he is wandering Tokyo hoping to make a few yuen to pay for the day's expenses.

As much as I admire, even envy, my younger son's zen-like spirit and wanderlust, I would and do hold back financial support. I would be much more willing to loan or give money to my engineer son. Why? Because he has made considerable sacrifices to get what he has. He has been willing to work really hard. My younger son, with no good reason like mental illness, has chosen to do very little for himself. He just does what comes naturally to him, and relies instead on others to reward him from time to time for his playing music on the street. He does not work hard at all. He has been extraordinarily lucky so far. Some day, though, that luck will run out. My older son, as I do, has a backup plan for bad luck. My younger son's backup plan is mom and dad will hand me something. His willful lack of planning and thinking ahead are going to have a bad outcome someday. I love him dearly, and will probably do something to help, but it will be with some negative feelings.

So I am a "bad" parent to one and a "good" parent to the other? I don't know. I love them both equally and immensly. You who tell me of your parents love expressed by giving you everything make me doubt myself. My own parents would give up much more than I am willing to give up. Maybe it is because my parents have always had considerably more money than I have. My wife and I raised our family in a tiny, old house, bought clothes at thrift stores, bought the cheapest food, and drove 15 year old plus cars. Only now that our children are gone do we have enough money to wear new clothes, take a few trips and eat better food (the rest of the stuff remains the same). I feel like we earned a better life. My younger son is living like he earned a better life, but he has not, and I resent giving up what I have earned to let him do what I want to do. I would love to be on endless overseas vacation. It is not going to happen until I can afford it, if ever.

Blather mode off. Just had to get that out. Comments?

Bumper sticker: Wherever you go, there you are

Kv,
I am 100% agreement with you. You love your kids but at some point they want to be "free" from you and you want to be "free" from them in a way. In my opinion when a kid is old enough to go out on his own then he is on his own. My parents never had money and I had to take care of myself. I got in some jams but it was up to me to get myself out. I may have had to borrow money from someone but they were people I have had to pay back. No free ride. I only had me to count on and it kept me from making alot of mistakes cause I knew there was no one to bail me out. I had to think first before I did something stupid.
You have raised your kids and I have no doubt that you wouldn't think for a second if one of them needed help. The difference is one is responsible and you know he is trying to do his best and you know if he needed financial help he is good for it. The other is putting himself into a very iffy situation, well aware of the consequences of breaking the law in another country and not having much money to pay for his entire stay. If he CHOOSES to do that, in my opinion, he also chooses to deal with whatever happens on his own.
That's just my comments.
Heidu

Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending.
~ Carl Bard ~

People are all different - parents and kids too. My parents never had a lot. They always expected me to go to college but they also always said that they couldn't pay for it. I had to ask them for help with rent once when I was a single college student out on my own, and they did, but that was all the help I ever got from them. I would have graduated from college back then except for a technical detail that I never resolved until now. Sometimes I didn't eat because I had no money, but it can be done. Some parents give their kids too much and others don't give enough (but some don't have it to give). I would be better off even now if my parents had helped me a little more than they did, but I'm here, aren't I? Just like with most issues, moderation is the key. Either extreme can be a problem. It depends on the kid too - some can use a little help and make good use of it, while others have already received too much and need to learn to find their own way. You're a good parent to both by doing what is right for them as individuals.

<font color=blue>Life is filled with tragedy; if you let it overwhelm you, you cannot enjoy life's innocent pleasures. -Robert Heinlein</font color=blue>

Kv,

You sound like a perfectly decent parent to me. I actually sat here jealous of your younger son when you first wrote about him and now. To be that carefree, that adventurous is something that most people only dream about. Sure, he may get himself into trouble, but that goes for any of us. You said that you think one day his luck will run out. Not necessarily! Now, I don't know your son, but haven't you ever known people who "bad fortune" that just seemed to follow them around like a black cloud hanging over their heads, and then others who have their share of misfortunes but somehow come out of it, every time, smelling like a rose? No big deal to them?

Understand that I'm not advocating irresponsibility, but it seems that right now your son has no responsibilities other than to himself (no wife, no kids, no mortgage to pay?) I'm also not talking about psycho-babble crap like, "personal responsibility", and there is nothing inherantly "wrong" with him for wanting to live the way he does even if its for a few years. I assume he is healthy physically and mentally, therefore you should not be responsible for supporting him financially....no way! Does he expect you to?

I've had anxiety problems since I was 11 years old. This lead to depression and self-loathing. I have never had luck with men...BIG black cloud!!!! So never had the support that a husband (hopefully) or even a caring boyfriend could have given me. However, I have also been on my own, made a life for myself supported myself and worked hard at, and been successful at being a responsible adult. What I was trying to get across, is that when, due to circumstances that threaten to swallow us up alive, if we need a hand, it's nice to know that it is there. The past 2 years with what I thought was purely a "mental" problem have been exceptionally difficult or me. Turns out a physical problem went undiagnosed (by 2 GP's and a psychiatrist) for the past year and a half, causing physical and emotional hell. Hopefully, within 6 months or so I'll be well enough, I can't tell you how I cry about it, I want my life back! This is exactly what I told the new endocrinologist when I saw him last month for the first time. While it's been miserable, I can't imagine what I would have done if my parents had not been here during this time. That's why I said I was "lucky." Your son seems lucky too. Maybe you, in raising him, helped foster his self-esteem, his love of adventure and courage (I think what he's doing is pretty courageous!) Sounds like you did something right, to me.

Pebs

<font color=purple> The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated--Gandhi

Sometimes I lie awake at night in bed and I ask, "Is it all worth it?" And then a voice says, "Who are you talking to?" And another voice says, "You mean, ' To whom are you talking?'" And I say, "No wonder I lie awake at night."--Charlie Brown </font color=purple>