Anyone Else Familiar with Sam Vaknin?

I know you meant well. And I meant no disrespect. But, my point is that some of us have seen crimes.. some of us have had crimes committed against us.

For some of us, it's a little more complicated than just forgiving people because "they did the best they could".

I'm all for forgiving some people, because they truly did the best they could... but, I also still think that when someone is diagnosed as NPD, that their childhood should be examined, and those who committed crimes against them should be brought to justice.

Perhaps you're an exception if you know that no crimes were committed against you.

One of the things that is frustrating to me is that I've even tried to tell counselors how bad my parents were.. They basically tried to shut me down, like they didn't believe me. I suppose those counselors should be forgiven, because they did and were doing the best they could.

But, it also hurt me in that I blamed myself. I thought "maybe I just didn't do a good job of explaining what happened.".

We all have our things that went on in our past that make us who we are. You feel that you will feel better if the person who did wrong to you is convicted of their crimes. Understand you completely. The difference between you and I is that I am not one to wait for someone to do something about it. I plan, build up anger to no end and figure ways to get back at the ones who I felt did wrong to me. You want a judge, I'd feel better being the judge for my own things(Just read back and I see all my N traits in the last sentence which is unhealthy). You see I have some of that fire building inside as I write back to you. I feel that you have misunderstood me which in turn makes me angry and also makes me want to attack you. Instead I am letting it go as I too have my narcissistic tendencies that I work to keep at bay. I do appreciate you coming to this forum as you have plenty of good things to write of which we typically don't see here. Just keep in mind that not all are the same and that each post is a double edge sword when it comes to the responses that come back. About a year ago or so I felt the need to call someone out on their self proclaimed narcissism. It made me feel strong as many others kept adding fuel to the fire and agreeing with all I had to say and even the one I attacked told me how much they agreed with me. Long story short someone there(different forum) PMd me and pointed out all my traits and flaws with what I did. At first I was so angry with what he or she told me but after looking deeper into what was said I realized how right they were. I was wrong, my action were wrong and I felt it. The only way to become better is to work on you and your flaws. Wanting revenge of what's "right" to happen will not make anything with you better. It seems you have small pockets of this happening. Your actions towards the people in your town and so on shows this. It's a very long road and one that usually is one step ahead, 25 back. I write here sometimes for fun, when I am in whirlwind effect, angry, confused, nuts and so on. Many times I am still writing just to see the reactions I get from others as in my "N" ways. I am going on two years and have made small strides in being better but am nowhere close to the end. Our minds will continue to trick us, make us believe we are doing right when in fact we are still doing exactly the same thing just with a different mask on. Anyway I wish you well and write as I see. Always my own mind working and not based off others. You may get it you may not.

It's interesting, because I do want to live a life where I do not feel a need to attack others. I've felt profoundly disrespected in real life a few times lately... and I've decided that the best course of action is to let it go, to refuse to retaliate.

But... I think that when someone is diagnosed as NPD, that the mental health community has a responsibility to check into that persons background and that they have a responsibility to make sure that the crimes committed against that person (when they were innocent children) are brought to light, and that the guilty parties are prosecuted. We (victims and the mental health community) do not have a responsibility to forgive those that commit crimes. We have responsibility to bring them to justice, so they don't do it again. But, I don't think any pressure should be put on the victims, either... They do have the right to just forgive, if that is what they really want. But, always remember, you were a victim, and someone else committed a crime.

Do you want to talk about the crimes that were perpetrated against you (the ones from childhood)? The ones committed against the innocent child that you were?

Listen do you really think that if what you say were to happen that you would be better??? NO you won't, keep thinking of the past and you will remain there!! Maybe you prefer walking backwards as I really don't know you. Once again my point is that you need to do for you to become better or at least begin to become. Reliving what happened will do nothing for you except continue all those memories. I talk of now and the future as this is where we are and are heading. Have you been diagnosed with NPD or like Sam self proclaimed?

I have not been diagnosed. My T suggested that he saw traits. I've read the traits, and I have exhibited them all at one time or another. Like it matters...

Do you really disagree with this statement? I don't know if you noticed, but the statement above is not about me, in particular.. it is about how narcissists are treated by the mental health profession.

did you take the time to read this thread?

The reason we've gone down this path is because we all suspect that the mental health profession doesn't understand us. They tell others how to defend themselves when they encounter us... but, they don't know how to help us. Maybe, if they realized that we have been victims of crimes, they would start to understand.

Yes, I realize I still need to take responsibility for my actions.

I don't know.... maybe I'm wrong... maybe I should just let it go.

But, it does make me angry that no one protected me, or even cared that I was a victim in many ways. I think about that innocent child that I was... and I just feel so bad for him.

and, it also made me feel good to call that police department. There is nothing wrong with wanting to see someone like the man who abused me brought to justice. The laws are there for a reason. and it makes sense for me to try and prevent him from hurting other people.

And it makes me angry that therapists can't seem to see beyond the adults were are today.

Humans take their abusers to court everyday.... and no one thinks poorly of them for doing so.

Getting back to this.. I've asked my parents some questions. I don't really trust my dad enough to ask too many questions.. and he gets defensive very quickly. His attitude is basically "how dare you do anything but forgive me.. the Bible says you need to forgive me". and he has actually, literally said that to me.

But, I just keep analyzing and thinking about it. What happened when.. where we were living at the time... Like a scientist with a science project. Looking at it with an objective eye... trying to see it as an outsider.

Most abusers were abused themselves? Does that mean we should be punishing the people that abused our abusers because technically it is their fault? And what about the people who made the abusers abusers into what they were? Where does one draw the line?

I know I for one have hurt people because of who I am which was caused by my history, I would ask some understanding from these people surely I must do the same for the people who have hurt me?

What about the unpunishable?

Of my parents my mother is probably the one who has caused the most damage but my father is the only one that could be prosecuted.

How can you punish someone who simply wasn't born with the right synapses or whatever and therefore couldn't emotionally connect to her child?

The guy that abused me was even prosecuted (someone else) but in the end the case was dropped for lack of evidence despite being caught and several other people coming forward. The complexities of prosecuting a child abuse case are almost impossible. These are even worse when it's an old case as would be for most NPD's looking for closure.

Still what he did doesn't compare to the feeling I get knowing my mother failed to protect me.

Then my now ex, he just picked right up where my parents left off and took what little self worth they'd left me.

He left me an emotionally broken mess but he's been hurt too (Ticked many boxes for NPD.) Do I get to hate him now despite his own pain?

Sheesh, most of what happened between us happened because he took advantage of my own vulnerabilities. Now, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean you should take advantage of them but if you are that weak should you not take some responsibility for what happened?

Who is to blame there?

The question of blame I feel is far too blurred to be a real answer to healing.

Perhaps some confrontation may be cathartic but for the most part I don't think you can find healing in the past. It's happened and can not be changed. If you must study it try to learn from it- either to not be like that person who hurt you or to find your own past dangerous behaviours.

I'm trying to make this about justice, and about breaking laws... So, yes.. if the abusers were abused, then yes, of course the people who committed crimes against them should be brought to justice. Is there some other way to think about it? Are there some criminals we should just give a pardon to?

Do you like the way narcissists are treated by the mental health community?

Maybe I'm wrong.. Maybe I missed something.

It just seems to me, if a person (like, I don't know.. a therapist?) were to uncover a crime, then said criminal should be brought to justice.

Of course not (and not just because I've been on the less than helpful end of it. If someone is looking for help it should be given) and I don't see how my response could lead you think that I do.

I wasn't discussing how mental health professionals treat anyone. I was discussing the relevance of vengeance and blame.

Where did I mention vengeance? It's a very natural desire to see those who have committed crimes against oneself to be brought to justice. The laws are there for a reason.

Other people need to be protected from the criminals that committed crimes against us. Although, I do understand the fear involved. It's a scary thing to confront your attacker.

And far too often that desire is fueled by vengeance.

Rather than looking for a chance to heal it's a case of an eye for an eye.

???? I can't believe you're arguing with me. Imagine a guy who has a business. Someone breaks into his store, and steals a bunch of expensive crap. We know there is a guy who is going around and breaking into businesses and stealing things.

Should the business owner be questioned about his motives if he decides to go to the police?

Would anyone in their right mind say something like, "just forgive the guy.. don't look for vengeance (by going to the police), just forgive"?

Did the guy breaking into the business have a gun pointed at his head by someone else to make him do it? Did he need to feed his family?

I tend to take the view of pitying my abusers because I can understand that they have been hurt. That just like me they didn't chose to suffer as they have. They were punished long before they met or damaged me.

I understand this is not a popular view and it is clearly one you don't share so I will now bow out.

Good luck.

You bring do bring up a good point about the unpunishable.
And about trying to prosecute old crimes. But, the potential for good is still there. If enough people come forward (like in the child abuse scandal in the RC church), then a case starts to take form. I can tell you I'm happy I called the police department. Just the self-respect I have for myself made it worth it to me.

And I understand what you mean about the fact your parents didn't protect you.... I have had the same thoughts.

But, again, don't try to convince me that I'm talking about people "who didn't have the right synapses.." I'm talking about, have been talking about, people who have had actual crimes committed against them. In situations like that, they have every right to go to the police...

So, are you telling me that if someone were to break into my business (I do own my own business), that I should not go to the police, because there is a possibility(even though I have no idea who broke in) that the person who committed the crime was under duress at the time?

Think about what you are saying.

Let me ask you this. Do you think the man who abused you is more likely to commit that crime again, or less likely? I bet being put under scrutiny scared the crap out of the guy. Especially if he was questioned by the police.

I only like to hear what Sam has to say because of a very bad and tragic experience with a narcissist family member.

I'd much rather not hear Sam or have a family member who is a narcissist, but since I do have one then I'm glad I found Sams Youtube clips because watching them has helped me a lot in understanding what is going on.

It seems to me that the attitude is quite correct and it reflects my own experience.

Why counter what in many cases is perfectly true? How does that help?

I just couldn't understand why my brother was doing what he was doing to himself and others. Now that I have some insight, thanks to Sam Vaknin, it makes it easier to understand, but it does nothing about my brothers obnoxious behaviour and the pain he causes to himself and others.

I not hold Sam Vakning very high.. I'd rather seek information and knowledge from these pages than from him. He has only found a perfect way to get money... Victims of narcisst people. Or a place for him to shine up high in many eyes. For me - he is just another gold digger among gold diggers.